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***A Prophetic Message to the Church of God*** (L)
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Post Re: My concern... Travis Johnson
SouthGA,

We should never rejoice in death. Matt is expressing the redemptive tone in all of this. Our hearts must be turned to our fathers and the fathers hearts must be turned to the sons. We all must return to the heart of Jesus.

Anything less and we will experience this death and likely have experienced this death on a number of levels. But, this is a hope-filled word if we heed it. If we don't heed it, the question is not that of whether or not God will abandon us. It is a question of whether or not we have abandoned God and have become a tree that does not produce fruit...a tree in need of being cut down, shaken, and uprooted.

There should be no arrogance in this discussion. But, there should be a bowing before our revolutionary Jesus in obedience to His heart, hope, and mission as opposed to the mandates of our man-centered systems.
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Post Re: My concern... SouthGeorgiaBoy
Travis Johnson wrote:
SouthGA,

We should never rejoice in death. Matt is expressing the redemptive tone in all of this. Our hearts must be turned to our fathers and the fathers hearts must be turned to the sons. We all must return to the heart of Jesus.

Anything less and we will experience this death and likely have experienced this death on a number of levels. But, this is a hope-filled word if we heed it. If we don't heed it, the question is not that of whether or not God will abandon us. It is a question of whether or not we have abandoned God and have become a tree that does not produce fruit...a tree in need of being cut down, shaken, and uprooted.

There should be no arrogance in this discussion. But, there should be a bowing before our revolutionary Jesus in obedience to His heart, hope, and mission as opposed to the mandates of our man-centered systems.


Travis, I agree with you completely. I too see this prophesy as a hope filled word. And I believe that this word has to be embraced by all leadership on the local, state, and international level. It is left up to us all! I do believe that we have men and women who will step up to the plate and heed what God is saying.

My response was to a couple of post who seem to relish in the perceived fact that the church was going to hell in a hand basket (my words).

I pray for all of us to unite in the mandate and challenge given to us by the Holy Spirit!
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2/22/08 4:38 pm


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Post Other things going on doyle
A historical perspective of when this powerful word was delivered, will add even more to the impact of it's being given.

Brenda Taylor was a wonderful person and a dynamic Christian. But there were others things going on in the COG at the time that added much to the impact of this prophetic word.
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Post Re: Other things going on Matt Boyd
doyle wrote:
A historical perspective of when this powerful word was delivered, will add even more to the impact of it's being given.

Brenda Taylor was a wonderful person and a dynamic Christian. But there were others things going on in the COG at the time that added much to the impact of this prophetic word.


I agree Doyle! Can you inform us on those "other things" going on in the COG at that time?
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Post OK, I'll Bite mytwocents
Someone asked where are the "system" guys on this thread, and I guess I defend the system as much as anyone, so I will bite.

Don't know the speaker; don't remember Brenda well; do know and have entertained Al, great guy.

I watched the first one; as others have said, context and setting and who was present and who wasn't all come into play. I think it is easy to have an agenda, as many of you do, and hear something that feeds into that agenad, and make the application. Didn't say you did or didn't, just said I think that is easy to do.

Most people hear what they want to hear; you can proclaim a message on divorce and one person in the congregation fighting for their marraige see it as confirmation to stay married. But in the same congregation someone wanting to end their marriage can see it as confirmation for divorce. We are odd creatures.

So, who Dr. Moore was speaking to that day I have no idea. If you want to believe it was the entire church of God that is your right, but I would suggest you use that right with caution. I judge propechies, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, interpretation of tongues, by the scripture; for me if they don' t line up with scripture they are flesh speaking.
The danger with judging this as a whole prophecy to the Church of God is that IMHO, it has not been fulfilled.

The scripture says
Deut 18:21-22
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true , that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously.
NIV

Now, how long you wait until it is fulfilled probably depends upon your agenda. Some will say there is decline in the Church of God and so this is being fulfilled because that is their agenda. Others would say since 1996 the church has increased in many ways and venues, so it is false.
Depends on your agenda.

Here are my closing thoughts, and honestly I don't want to start a dialogue; when I hear a word of prophecy, interpretation, etc. I only seek to apply it TO ME. Lord, how does this apply to me. It is not my place, and I'm not sure anyone else's place to apply it to others; that is the Holy Spirits job.
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Post Re: OK, I'll Bite Matt Boyd
mytwocents wrote:
Someone asked where are the "system" guys on this thread, and I guess I defend the system as much as anyone, so I will bite.

Don't know the speaker; don't remember Brenda well; do know and have entertained Al, great guy.

I watched the first one; as others have said, context and setting and who was present and who wasn't all come into play. I think it is easy to have an agenda, as many of you do, and hear something that feeds into that agenad, and make the application. Didn't say you did or didn't, just said I think that is easy to do.

Most people hear what they want to hear; you can proclaim a message on divorce and one person in the congregation fighting for their marraige see it as confirmation to stay married. But in the same congregation someone wanting to end their marriage can see it as confirmation for divorce. We are odd creatures.

So, who Dr. Moore was speaking to that day I have no idea. If you want to believe it was the entire church of God that is your right, but I would suggest you use that right with caution. I judge propechies, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, interpretation of tongues, by the scripture; for me if they don' t line up with scripture they are flesh speaking.
The danger with judging this as a whole prophecy to the Church of God is that IMHO, it has not been fulfilled.

The scripture says
Deut 18:21-22
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true , that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously.
NIV

Now, how long you wait until it is fulfilled probably depends upon your agenda. Some will say there is decline in the Church of God and so this is being fulfilled because that is their agenda. Others would say since 1996 the church has increased in many ways and venues, so it is false.
Depends on your agenda.

Here are my closing thoughts, and honestly I don't want to start a dialogue; when I hear a word of prophecy, interpretation, etc. I only seek to apply it TO ME. Lord, how does this apply to me. It is not my place, and I'm not sure anyone else's place to apply it to others; that is the Holy Spirits job.


mytwocents,

I recommend that you take the time to listen prayerfully to all three parts. Even though your usual approach to a prophecy is to “only seek to apply it TO ME.” I suggest that you humbly ask the Holy Spirit to apply it any way He wants.

If you look at all three parts you will see whom, specifically, Dr. Moore is speaking to.

Concerning agendas, I sincerely hope that it is no ones agenda on here is that the Church of God would decline. Just to make it clear that is not my motive or agenda in posting the message to the internet.

Why did I post it? What was my agenda or motive?
I felt led by the Holy Spirit to run with this prophetic message, which was for 1996 and for today. I sought the advice of godly council and was encouraged to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit.

What is my goal? To obey Christ. The results are really up to those who hear it. Now we are responsible to respond in faith. Just like the city of Nineveh in the book of Jonah. God gives us a choice to humble ourselves both personally and corporately before Him or He will correct/discipline us.

May we all, company, missional, rebels and whatever label we want to give ourselves and others, humble ourselves, act and speak in love and truly obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
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2/23/08 12:14 pm


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Post Call to Prayer AlaskanBishop
I felt this message shake me deeply in my soul.
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Post Prophecy, prophets, and prophesying... Mike Burgner
We don't seem to have a problem with books of prophecy such as Joel in the OT and Revelation in the NT. The prophecies writen by these prophets were relevant in the OT and NT culture, yet we find relevance in them today. Why can't a prophetic word that came forth in 1996 have relevance 12 years later? If God can use the living illustration of Hosea marrying a prostitute to get a message across to Israel, why can't He use the death of a pillar in the church to get a message across to us today?

I think the issue is that we have a problem with the gift of prophesy, yet of all the gifts of the spirit Paul said we should desire to prophesy. Anytime we hear someone say, "The Lord said" or "God told me" we think they just stepped off a spaceship from another planet. We have no problem with tongues and interpretation, but if someone just starts speaking forth a word of revelation from God, we go bonkers. I still believe in prophecy, prophets, and prophesying. Just because something is a little abused and misused doesn't mean we discard it. There is 1000% more good that can come from this precious gift than bad.

I believe with all my heart this word given in 1996 is 100% from God and we as a body should seriously consider our future as a movement. Goto my blog for more on prophesy, or to see this prophesy in text form.

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Post This Prophecy & Engage 21 Matt Boyd
Before any of the children of this word from the Lord attend the Engage 21 conference we should dedicate some time to fast and pray for God's will to be done.

We have not because we ask not. So I encourage all to pray for and expect great things from God!

Lord please turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. May we walk in love and humility before you and each other so we can be one as you and the Father are one. In the Name of Jesus Christ, the strong Son of God I pray, Amen!
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Post I Said I Didn't Want to Start a Dialogue mytwocents
but dadgumit if y'all didn't do it. I'll try to offer a few responses:

Tom, you asked is there no cause for concern. Absolutely there is cause for concern, particularly in the US. But those calls for concern do not validate or confirm the prophecy. Further, I made no comments about the speaker or his validity. To say he gave a prophetic word is one thing; to apply that word broadly twelve years later is quite another.

You replied very well in regards to my concern about if you apply this to the whole Church of God today then what about its fulfillment. While you cite correctly churches closing and pastors turning in credentials I could also site churches opening, the MIP/MAP and Lee producing more ministers than ever, not to mention what is taking place via the Church of God around the world.

I went back and reviewed what I heard; it seemed the word said "your solemn assembly is NOW over...."; that to me speaks of an immediate actoin, not an action for a time to come. But that is just "to me".

I thought Doyle had a great point: what was going on in the church at the time it was given? Was that not the time around the Robert White conflict? Are we taking what may be obvious and applying it elsewhere?

To Matt: I believe if you will check my original post I did say it was the Holy Spirit's job to apply His word where ever he wishes. But I still hold that my first level of responsiblity, before I go saying "this word is for YOU" is to ask "is this for me; how does this apply to me".

To Mike: I noticed by the poll on your website that you feel either the Church of God is right and needs no correction or it is horribly diseased and needs to be taken out of its misery (my words, not yours); what about the church has challenges and needs to address them as it continues to serve God in so many great ways that it does? BTW, I didn't vote.
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Post Ken Shelton
I Cor. 14:3 "But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort."

verse 12 "So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church"

verse 26. "Let all things be done unto edifying."

Eph 4:11 "It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."

For the past eight years, I have been involved in the prophetic movement, mostly outside the COG, even though I have been a COG minister for 35 years. This was by providential design...it has revolutionized my life. Although there are flakes everywhere, the prophetic movement, by and large, is marked by men and women of great character and integrity.

One of the high water marks of our study has been accepting the responsibility as prophetic people in this age of grace, to exhibit that grace in the sharing of a prophetic word...to capture the restorative tone of every prophetic word for the church...and to utilize the scriptures that I have listed in the first portion of this post, to build up, comfort and encourage.

We all know that God requires change of his people. We know that correction is a part of a loving Father's relationship with His children. For that reason, we must learn to harness the tone of any prophetic word so that it accurately portrays Father God's desire to redeem, restore and heal.

OT prophets blessed and cursed...NT prophets "bless and curse not."
OT prophets had a complex role as seen in Jeremiah 1:10
"See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant."
NT prophets have a simple role as seen in Ephesisans 4:11-12, 1"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Human personality plays a large part in the tone of any word, but these words must carry the tone of grace because grace is the language of the New Covenant.

Whether the Word given by Dr. Moore is a message for the church today or whether it has already occurred will soon be seen. But nonetheless, if the NT gift of prophecy is to fulfill its role, it must be healing, restorative, edifying, and comforting in its correction and foretelling.
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Post NT Prophecy R. Keith Whitt
I agree that NT prophecy is to be redemptive/restorative in nature. To appropriate a quote from one of the greatest teachers in the Church anywhere, R. Hollis Gause, "All judgement is redemptive in nature."

When I first heard this statement, I wondered how such a broad statement could be true in all circumstances of judgement, especially the final judgment. However, the final judgment serves to vindicate (or redeem) those who have been faithful to God. It also serves to "redeem" (vindicate) God himself, though it may not rescue those being judged. This is the theme of the prophetic Book of Revelation.

I take the prophetic message to be redemptive/restorative in nature -- if the message is heeded. If I understood the closing sentences of Rickie's prophecy, that is exactly what he is saying. I do not view his prophetic message as one of arrogance or non-reversable doom, but great concern for a denomination that he continues to serve even today.

I haven't seen Rickie in a couple of weeks, so Matt could probably give more insight, but the fact that he is still in the COG tells me he sees the message as a warning that things need to change, not a pronouncement of unalterable doom and demise (By the way, with his credentials finding another place to teach would not be a problem, so he stays because he chooses to stay, not because he has no other options).

If, however, we do not radically change the "system" and the corporate culture that permits/embraces a lack of integrity and openness, the COG needs to die. We do not exist just to exist. We exist to fulfill the mission of Christ.

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Post Ken Shelton
Thanks Keith,
In my former post, I make no assertions toward Dr. Moore, simply toward the tendency of many, perhaps most, to think there is no difference between OT & NT prophets, when there is significant difference. Also, many see the prophetic as mystical, and the people involved as ascetics. While, there may be certain periods of time that a prophetic person demonstrates these qualities, they should not be the overarching theme of their personality or life.

I think it is very helpful for prophetic persons to ask themselves how they would feel if the word they are about to deliver were delivered to them in public, then modify so that others can save face.

I think this is so important because in the overwhelming majority of cases, those who do ministry are good people with good hearts and need to be honored, even in the giving of a prophetic word.

There should never be any desire by a prophet to humiliate, embarrass or provoke another person. The Prophetic person should couch his/her words in a way that does not falsely elevate the prophet or intimidate others.
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Post Brenda's life story Peggy Scarborough
A few years ago Al and I co-authored the book, "Power of Vision", the stories of the men on the Vision Board. I believe they still have them available in the stewardship department. If not, board members of Vision have them. There is a chapter on Al's life (and of course Brenda's life).

Brenda Taylor was one of the greatest intercessors I have ever known. She prayed many hours for the leaders of our church. "I thank God upon every remembrance of her." It was such a loss to the church when she died.

I do hope permission was gotten from Al or their children to bring this video to the public attention again. Rick Moore is indeed one of the great scholars and Christians in our church.

I talked with Brenda numerous times about her condition. I visited with her a few weeks before she went to be with the Lord. I have a copy of the complete video of the funeral.

I do not believe Brenda would have wanted anyone to get the mistaken idea that she had to die for the sins of the church. Jesus did that. He took all the sin, sickness, guilt upon His body on the cross. Brenda was very solid in her theology.

I get concerned about some feelings expressed on this board recently about the church. We may not be perfect. People are not perfect. We have flaws. We have differences. We make mistakes.

But I must tell you that when I joined the Church of God as a teenager, I paid a price. My mother thought COG people swung from chandeliers. She was humiliated that her daughter had joined that crazy bunch. As a result of my mother's intense dislike for the church, I literally almost lost my very life as a teenager to be a part of this church. I am not willing to give up on the church now. Yes, we have differences. Yes, there are things we need to work on. Yes, all of us have been mistreated or overlooked at times. But when I look at other churches, independent churches, para church ministries, etc, they have problems too. The church is still the church I want to be a part of. Brenda spent her life praying for the church. We must do the same. If we pray, God can give us a breakthrough to once again get us back to being a church of power, righteousness, and love. The Bible is clear: "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven..."
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Post Ken Shelton
Thanks Peggy. Good thoughts.
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Post We face the same problems today that have always Randy Johnson
plagued the children of God.

Remember Eli's sons?

Quote:
12 Eli's sons were wicked men; they had no regard for the LORD. 13 Now it was the practice of the priests with the people that whenever anyone offered a sacrifice and while the meat was being boiled, the servant of the priest would come with a three-pronged fork in his hand. 14 He would plunge it into the pan or kettle or caldron or pot, and the priest would take for himself whatever the fork brought up. This is how they treated all the Israelites who came to Shiloh. 15 But even before the fat was burned, the servant of the priest would come and say to the man who was sacrificing, "Give the priest some meat to roast; he won't accept boiled meat from you, but only raw." 16 If the man said to him, "Let the fat be burned up first, and then take whatever you want," the servant would then answer, "No, hand it over now; if you don't, I'll take it by force." 17 This sin of the young men was very great in the LORD's sight, for they were treating the LORD's offering with contempt.


This seems to me to be part of the problem with men in leadership who lose touch with the common people, both ministers and laity. God's answer in this case was to raise up Samuel. But even though Samuel served faithfully in God's house his entire life, the problem did not go away.

Quote:
1 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as judges for Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not walk in his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice. 4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, "You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have."


If we seek perfection in our human institutions we are going to be bitterly disappointed time and time again. We need to recognize that in any organization we construct as men there are going to be limitations and imperfections. We need to be willing to recognize these and make adjustments accordingly as time goes by. We must not allow selfish agendas to rob us of our resiliency.
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Post youngbishop81
I will say nothing I heard in those words moved me it sort of disturb me. I believe it was not appropriate for a funeral. I was not in Ministry at this time I would enter two years later but I have heard people who was there that was insulted by this word including some of her family. They thought Brenda was used in a very sad way.

Travis for you to use this tape to move a long your dislikes for the Church of God and for your voice of change is sad and despicable. I know you have issues with Church but to take this post dated prophecy and use it as a dooms day report has to be one of the most strange and weird things I have ever seen. This prophecy unless it is for another time is wrong the church has not died but grew.

Do not get me wrong I think we need change: However, my cries for the Church of God is not so much for that change but for the men who will do anything and use any device even an old outdated word to get it!
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Post RE: youngbishop81 Matt Boyd
youngbishop81 wrote:
I will say nothing I heard in those words moved me it sort of disturb me. I believe it was not appropriate for a funeral. I was not in Ministry at this time I would enter two years later but I have heard people who was there that was insulted by this word including some of her family. They thought Brenda was used in a very sad way.

Travis for you to use this tape to move a long your dislikes for the Church of God and for your voice of change is sad and despicable. I know you have issues with Church but to take this post dated prophecy and use it as a dooms day report has to be one of the most strange and weird things I have ever seen. This prophecy unless it is for another time is wrong the church has not died but grew.

Do not get me wrong I think we need change: However, my cries for the Church of God is not so much for that change but for the men who will do anything and use any device even an old outdated word to get it!



I believe you have misjudged both Travis and this Prophecy. Travis did not post this video, I did. Travis just started the discussion about it on this site. Regarding my motive, I felt the Holy Spirit leading me to run with this prophecy that I have had in my possession for the past 12 yrs. After much prayer and the godly counsel of elders in our denomination and the advice of other godly men I went forward with making this prophecy accessible to as many people as possible.

So, I believe you owe Travis an apology. If you want to focus your anger and disgust somewhere direct it toward me. I do not claim to be perfect and always make the correct choices. However, I assure you my motive is to be obedient to the Lord and my hope is that God will use this Word to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers.
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Post Re: Rick Moore and the Prophecy Bullseye77
Let me preface my remarks by saying that I am one of the conservative ministers and members of the Church of God. I believe we need change, but change of a different sort than most are clamoring for.
I did not know Brenda Taylor, but I was at the GA when she spoke, representing the laity, to the Assembly. I was reminded of it by something said on the video.
I knew Rick Moore. I was a student in his class at the seminary. I never saw any foolishness out of him. What I did see was a man who was truly Pentecostal and dedicated to God. He inspired me, encouraged me, and taught me the Word of God. I would take anything he says seriously.
This is the first time I have seen these clips, but there is an awesomeness to what is happening here. I was stunned when Dr. Moore spoke of what God would sacrifice for a solemn assembly.
In response to the poster who said Brenda Taylor was used in a very sad way and that there were people there who were insulted, I've seen very few people who weren't insulted when their comfort zone is disturbed and their sin is pointed out. So what?
What could be the motive for Dr. Moore to do what he did if he was not moved upon by the Holy Ghost? What could be possibly gain? As I recall, he stated that he had been asked to speak to this issue at the service.
And as for not being moved by anything that was said, I was reminded of a training class I took in Police Academy. We were made to watch a video in which a State Trooper had made a traffic stop that went bad. He was shot, and died on the side of the road. All captured on his car-cam. At the end of the clip, the instructor said, "If watching that doesn't do something to you, you need to get out of this class and get into another line of work."
If one cannot sense the Spirit in these clips, or at least recognize the humility of the servant of God, perhaps another line of work would be preferable.
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Post Da Sheik
A very odd way to convey a prophetic message to an entire movement in 2008 don't you think? I do not judge this message as false, nor do I find any fault with the content of this message from Dr. Moore.

What I find disquieting is that there seems to be an agenda behind picking up this word and running with it over a decade later. Is a word with such broad implications sent to a funeral gathering and then later to participants on a message board?
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