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 Sparty |
archie |
| I am glad you shared what I know of you to be agenerous heart. I appreciate your concerns and your comments that display a team player attitude for our beloved denom and I know you love your fellow michigander even as I do. I didn't interpret the whole death thing as permanent but as with all of us we must die to something in order to live to something. I hear the words of this utterance to say that there is a death to these systems etc. but that even in dying the purpose is life, life after death. I think the most impacting statement for me was,"there is life after death and nowhere else" or to that affect. I am deeplt moved by the message and the messenger and I have asked Dr McMahan to give me his take on it as well and I look forward to hearing from Rickie's colleague on the subject. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 574
3/12/08 3:54 pm
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| sorry but |
Robert Langdon |
who was Brenda Taylor?
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Mr. Langdon |
Member
Posts: 25
3/12/08 8:48 pm
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Travis Johnson |
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| stirred once again... |
Grandpa Cleland |
| and the pot begins to stir once more... |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 532
3/19/08 2:58 pm
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| rip, roar, and snore |
Joe Nail |
lets stir the pot some more. i am glad that for some reason God has chosen once more to show mercy instead of judgement. 
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all that counts is your faith showing itself in love. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1669
3/19/08 6:56 pm
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onetruegod |
Well...............
It will certainly stir something up
I have to process and absorb for a while..................... |
Friendly Face
Posts: 106
3/20/08 8:48 am
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mytimewillcome |
 *yawn* |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1880
3/20/08 10:06 am
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mytimewillcome |
| mytimewillcome wrote: |
*yawn* |
Travis, how could you imply in the other thread that this post by me means that I reject the prophetic status of Dr. Moore. My yawn was that why do you have to keep bringing this back up? Dr. McGuire gave stats that, whether you believe them to be accurate or not, were accurate in his mind. It seems you are implying that Dr. McGuire was trying to attack Dr. Moores prophecy. You seem no different than that guy in high school that would push two people arguing into each other and yell "fight" in hopes something would happen. I just dont see the health in implying these things. And so, for the record, I believe in Dr. Moore's prophetic role and I also believe that this kind of stuff is doing nothing to keep it from being fulfilled. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1880
3/20/08 10:46 am
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Travis Johnson |
| mytimewillcome wrote: |
Travis, how could you imply in the other thread that this post by me means that I reject the prophetic status of Dr. Moore. My yawn was that why do you have to keep bringing this back up? Dr. McGuire gave stats that, whether you believe them to be accurate or not, were accurate in his mind. It seems you are implying that Dr. McGuire was trying to attack Dr. Moores prophecy. You seem no different than that guy in high school that would push two people arguing into each other and yell "fight" in hopes something would happen. I just dont see the health in implying these things. And so, for the record, I believe in Dr. Moore's prophetic role and I also believe that this kind of stuff is doing nothing to keep it from being fulfilled. |
Dennis McGuire's stats were accurate. They were also from 1970. Like I said, if you look at more current data, you would see that we are in decline on every front: attendance, tithing, and # of churches in the USA. The only thing that has been growing is administrative overhead.
I sat at a table with Bro. McGuire, James Francis, and Earl Cushman in Ft. Lauderdale and he told me:
1. We were on the verge of bankruptcy.
2. Tithes were down from the previous year.
3. More churches are closing than opening.
So, citing the same statistics from a smaller window of time, a time which included massive population shifts to the south (where we are very strong), we are shrinking. Let's talk about those stats also instead of solely reaching back before I was born.
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lpc l blog l missionalCOG.com |
Signature Series Mod
Posts: 5359
3/20/08 11:12 am
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mytimewillcome |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | mytimewillcome wrote: |
Travis, how could you imply in the other thread that this post by me means that I reject the prophetic status of Dr. Moore. My yawn was that why do you have to keep bringing this back up? Dr. McGuire gave stats that, whether you believe them to be accurate or not, were accurate in his mind. It seems you are implying that Dr. McGuire was trying to attack Dr. Moores prophecy. You seem no different than that guy in high school that would push two people arguing into each other and yell "fight" in hopes something would happen. I just dont see the health in implying these things. And so, for the record, I believe in Dr. Moore's prophetic role and I also believe that this kind of stuff is doing nothing to keep it from being fulfilled. |
Dennis McGuire's stats were accurate. They were also from 1970. Like I said, if you look at more current data, you would see that we are in decline on every front: attendance, tithing, and # of churches in the USA. The only thing that has been growing is administrative overhead.
I sat at a table with Bro. McGuire, James Francis, and Earl Cushman in Ft. Lauderdale and he told me:
1. We were on the verge of bankruptcy.
2. Tithes were down from the previous year.
3. More churches are closing than opening.
So, citing the same statistics from a smaller window of time, a time which included massive population shifts to the south (where we are very strong), we are shrinking. Let's talk about those stats also instead of solely reaching back before I was born. |
Again, I agree 100% that we need to look at the now. My original intent on this thread was to ask the question if we need to change because we are almost bankrupt, tithes down, churches closing, what are you helping by trying to make this connection with the Dr. Moore video and the one by Dr. McGuire. I don't see where it is helping at all. When I keep seeing all these posts it makes me think that the theme of the general assembly will be like a recent movie "there will be blood" |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1880
3/20/08 11:18 am
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Travis Johnson |
| mytimewillcome wrote: | | Again, I agree 100% that we need to look at the now. My original intent on this thread was to ask the question if we need to change because we are almost bankrupt, tithes down, churches closing, what are you helping by trying to make this connection with the Dr. Moore video and the one by Dr. McGuire. I don't see where it is helping at all. When I keep seeing all these posts it makes me think that the theme of the general assembly will be like a recent movie "there will be blood" |
I don't know of anyone besides you suggesting there will be blood. I do pray there will be institutional change. There has already been a practical change. And, there has been an institutionalized departing from the Minutes. We need to fix that. Someone needs to formally address it, own up to it, re-establish trust, and fix it immediately.
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lpc l blog l missionalCOG.com |
Signature Series Mod
Posts: 5359
3/20/08 11:43 am
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| Travis, my opinion... |
Yo Dude |
From what I could discern about this, this is what I believe:
This is a word from a sincere heart. It may indeed have been something God revealed to him. However, it was not in the right timing/context. Very simply, you likely aren't going to start a denomination-wide repentance over the casket of a beloved, departed saint.
I also believe that if there was a message from God in this (and I have no doubt that there was), it was skewered somewhat by the great passion of this man's heart. That is, he likely said things that were beyond the message that God wished to impart.
It seems to me that it was correct that we needed to "fix" the childbearing/reproductive aspect of the church. There are so many things this could mean. It could mean our "making converts"; it could mean our "making disciples"; it could mean our "training up leaders for the next generation," etc. All of these could rightfully be considered "reproductive" in nature--and indeed, the message might be about all of them.
But when he spoke of "salaries," it did not click. I took it rather that, in his passion for change, and perhaps some elements that he had observed from his position, this was spoken. Not purposely off course, but because he did (does) have a passion to see the Church of God reformed, and brought back(?) to a place of health.
It might even be the case that he thought THAT was the message--against the politices and so forth--while it MAY have been something more spiritual, etc.
In any case, I admire his courage. And though I think the message perhaps got clouded with his personal passion and love for the Church, the message is still there...for those who will discern. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8619
3/24/08 12:17 pm
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| Re: Travis, my opinion... |
Matt Boyd |
| Yo Dude wrote: | From what I could discern about this, this is what I believe:
This is a word from a sincere heart. It may indeed have been something God revealed to him. However, it was not in the right timing/context. Very simply, you likely aren't going to start a denomination-wide repentance over the casket of a beloved, departed saint.
I also believe that if there was a message from God in this (and I have no doubt that there was), it was skewered somewhat by the great passion of this man's heart. That is, he likely said things that were beyond the message that God wished to impart.
It seems to me that it was correct that we needed to "fix" the childbearing/reproductive aspect of the church. There are so many things this could mean. It could mean our "making converts"; it could mean our "making disciples"; it could mean our "training up leaders for the next generation," etc. All of these could rightfully be considered "reproductive" in nature--and indeed, the message might be about all of them.
But when he spoke of "salaries," it did not click. I took it rather that, in his passion for change, and perhaps some elements that he had observed from his position, this was spoken. Not purposely off course, but because he did (does) have a passion to see the Church of God reformed, and brought back(?) to a place of health.
It might even be the case that he thought THAT was the message--against the politices and so forth--while it MAY have been something more spiritual, etc.
In any case, I admire his courage. And though I think the message perhaps got clouded with his personal passion and love for the Church, the message is still there...for those who will discern. |
Yo Dude,
Just curious, why is it that you think the comment about "salaries," was not from the Lord or in your words "did not click?" As you know Jesus mentions money in the four gospels more then any other subject (at least 48 times). |
Friendly Face
Posts: 175
3/24/08 7:08 pm
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| Matt... |
Yo Dude |
Just my own personal discerning of the message. Certainly money is a valid topic for a message from God, but in this instance, I did not feel that it was.
Further, the Bible speaks about "let the others judge." And since this did not go over, and it seems unlikely that of all that stellar audience, there were not men of great discernment (including TLL), I just have to say that I think this was out of timing. Not necessarily wrong...just out of timing. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8619
3/24/08 7:13 pm
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| yo yodude |
Joe Nail |
good to see you back.
again you heard somthing that was not said "reproductive" was not mentioned. "nurture the children." was the words there is a vast difference in producing and nurturing. just another observation from one who heard this message speak to his heart in a way that only God speaks.
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all that counts is your faith showing itself in love. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1669
3/25/08 2:41 pm
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| JoeNail... |
Yo Dude |
That's fine. I still feel that same way about it.
In any case, I understood it, I think, in the same general way--that we were somehow falling short when it came to our children.
Please know that I am not saying that this word is not for NOW. It may very well be! I was simply saying that I felt it was out of timing THEN.
If God has touched your heart with it, then, man, go with it! |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8619
3/26/08 7:52 am
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| I have avoided this thread... |
prefontaine |
However, if it's going to go down as the longest ever, then I guess I need to be a part of it.
If this truly is a prophetic word from the Lord, then no amount of posting about it, or trying to figure out why, is going to stop it. It's just gonna happen, and we'll be left to pick up the pieces. Personally, I think that picking up the pieces could turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to the denomination. The people that want in will work to keep it together. We will have to work as a team to make the denomination go again. Also, it will be a catastrophic cause to do some introspection. We will be able to self-examine, and determine what went wrong, and how we cna make it better in the future.
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clintwills.blogspot.com |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5104
4/14/08 6:28 pm
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roughridercog |
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| Re: sorry but |
Darrell Garrett |
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Travis Johnson |
Doyle,
Can we put this back on the front page for a bit. It seems like the video has been removed from YouTube. The explanation is leaving me with a lot of questions and a sick feeling in my stomach.
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lpc l blog l missionalCOG.com |
Signature Series Mod
Posts: 5359
5/6/08 7:05 am
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