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Are You Mature Enough To Rejoice At Another's Success?
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Post Are You Mature Enough To Rejoice At Another's Success? 12thman
As a young youth pastor in a struggling church, I remember the buzz from my pastor's office going through the entire congregation about how the "So-And-So's" left our church to attend that worldly, much larger, compromising, don't preach the true-gospel church up the street. Every time someone left, or there was an article about a great event another church put on, that same buzz would kick in. We had an unspoken mentality that said we were the real deal experiencing a certain level of success (or failure!) and that anyone else that had a bigger building, congregation, etc must be cutting corners.

Looking back, I think we had "little-man syndrome." Since then, thank God, I've been set free from that mentality. Now I am the senior-pastor at a different church that started small but has grown significantly. I have had my fair share of people leaving my church to go to something better, and I mean that sincerely. After all, there are some great churches in my town. Mega Churches! Not all charismatic. Not all COG! But they are great churches with great pastors. Some of them have Bible Colleges and book deals and TV programs and some of the staff drive $40K vehicles. I wouldn't do some of the things they do, but the opposite is true.

One thing for sure... we are all fishermen. The goal is to catch as many fish as possible!!! With fish sometimes comes finances, and notoriety, and additional problems and challenges. I want more fish! But I can deal with the boat next to mine having more.
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3/17/06 12:57 pm


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Post I think it works both ways.. stp89
Some churches do have a "little man" (to use your terminology) philosophy- everyone who is growing must be compromising or watering down the gospel according to this way of thinking.

There is also the mindest of "they're growing...God MUST be blessing." I think this is equally dangerous. Not all growth is healthy.

We have to be what God has called us to be and we do need to be able to rejoice in the success of others. If we don't get to that point, I don't think we will be truly successful (and again, by "successful" I don't necessarily mean much larger or financially prosperous) by God's standards.

The Tower of Babel was a great success if we evaluate strictly by numbers. Not only that, but they had great unity.

Likewise, Noah was a tremendous failure- his ministry only produced 8 converts (all family at that Laughing )

Jesus said that there would be wheat among the tares...so that tells us that not all within the "visible" church are truly saved. Size is not an accurate indicator of church health.
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3/17/06 4:02 pm


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Post I rejoice with all....... sheepdogandy
who grow for the right reasons.
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3/17/06 5:12 pm


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Post Not until recently Pastor Gary
When the big Mega-Church hit town and did everything bigger, better and more effectively than everyone else, they gained members from almost every church I knew... including ours. We lost a family in which the mom and dad sang on our worship team and were actively involved.

I resented it in a big way. I struggled with it and allowed it to fester in my spirit. And the Lord kept dealing with me over my attitude.

Finally, I sat down and wrote an email to the megachurch Pastor, in which I confessed my lousy attitude, asked him to forgive me, and prayed blessings and increase upon him and his church.

Released from my attitude, I have become friends now with some pastors of very large "successful" churches -- they help me, love me and pray for and with me. It was my lousy attitude that was the problem, not their success.
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3/17/06 5:23 pm


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Post notwanghere
Great thread!

The value of the Church should be determined by the message that is preached not the number to whom the message is preached!

I rejoice with those who have labored and built mega Churches on the Gospel. I grieve when the term Church is applied to a gathering where the Gospel is not the foundation.
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3/17/06 5:36 pm


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Post Redneck
I agree. This is a good thread. Another thing about the catching fish analogy. Not everybody is a good bass fisherman, same can be said for Tuna, walleye, pike, etc....

Each of you (pastors) have a certain demographic that you can relate to. There are folks out there that can't communicate well at different levels. Meaning the classes of people in today's society. Some folks can relate to a Bill Gates and turn right around and talk to someone on an Ernest T. Bass level in the same breath. Some folks may not be able to do either. There are tons of different kinds of folks out there (fish) and there are tons of different pastors (fisherman). Everybody has their place in the body. (sometimes I feel like I'm the armpit) Very Happy
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3/17/06 5:49 pm


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Post a thought... 12thman
Mr. Metzgar recently posted a thread available on Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/2003/09/17/cz_lk_0917megachurch.html It discusses several aspects of mega churches (non-Catholic churches over 2000 in Sunday attendance). It says that in 1970, there were just ten such churches. Today, there are 740.

While the address was given originally to stress the negativity of mega churches, I personally was excited. After all, the early Acts church was a mega church. We all get excited and shout "Amen" when we read the numbers that are added in those first few chapters. It seems that people in the US are starting to finally figure it out.

I think that several on this site could start very negative and accusatory threads about Jesus or the Apostles dealing with the growth they experienced - "He gets people to come to his church because he gives away free lunches.... those people attend for all the wrong reasons like miracles!

We have been called to bear fruit. Fruit is something that can be counted and measured. Yes, the quality of fruit should be considered and yes, you can end up with a bunch of rotten apples. But if he gives you 5 talents and you end up with 5, sounds to me like something got buried somewhere. How can anyone be critical of those with 5 that turned them into 500. To publicly degrade the likes of Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, TD Jakes baffles me, especially when most of the people so critical have never even attended their churches.
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3/17/06 7:16 pm


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Post Re: Are You Mature Enough To Rejoice At Another's Success? Memory03
12thman wrote:
As a young youth pastor in a struggling church, I remember the buzz from my pastor's office going through the entire congregation about how the "So-And-So's" left our church to attend that worldly, much larger, compromising, don't preach the true-gospel church up the street. Every time someone left, or there was an article about a great event another church put on, that same buzz would kick in. We had an unspoken mentality that said we were the real deal experiencing a certain level of success (or failure!) and that anyone else that had a bigger building, congregation, etc must be cutting corners.

Looking back, I think we had "little-man syndrome." Since then, thank God, I've been set free from that mentality. Now I am the senior-pastor at a different church that started small but has grown significantly. I have had my fair share of people leaving my church to go to something better, and I mean that sincerely. After all, there are some great churches in my town. Mega Churches! Not all charismatic. Not all COG! But they are great churches with great pastors. Some of them have Bible Colleges and book deals and TV programs and some of the staff drive $40K vehicles. I wouldn't do some of the things they do, but the opposite is true.

One thing for sure... we are all fishermen. The goal is to catch as many fish as possible!!! With fish sometimes comes finances, and notoriety, and additional problems and challenges. I want more fish! But I can deal with the boat next to mine having more.




could not have put it any better myself. I pastor a small congregation as many of you know. we struggle from month to month financially. we have some larger CoG churches in our area that do very well. one of my members husband (whom I thought was a member of my church) who attends my church every Sunday Morning, joined one of the large CoG churches this past Sunday Night. we don't have a Sunday Evening Service, finances are an issue and when we had one it was not well supported. Some would be upset with the family and the other pastor for not even letting us know. nothing has ever been wrong with the relationship between me and this family. we are very friendly and have never had a problem. I am very disappointed, however my take on this is if they can help these folks and it is God's Will, then who am I to stop it. I wish them all success.
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3/17/06 9:38 pm


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Post Jealousy or Passion for Souls Porpoise Driven Neptune
Early in my ministry I attended an evangelistic meeting at another church. At the end about 10 people stepped forward to receive Christ as Savior. I was thinking something along the lines of "That's nice to see" when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin & hypocrisy.

I was claiming that I was ministering for the Lord, but all the time I was ministering for myself. If 10 people had got saved in one of our services I would have been shouting & running the aisles - but here it was happening in someone else's church & so I my reaction was much more muted. I realized with a shock that may passion was not for souls - it was for personal success in ministry.

I spent serious time on my face before the Lord over the next few days, begging Him to forgive me & to change my attitudes.
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3/18/06 5:49 am


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Post Re: a thought... stp89
12thman wrote:

After all, the early Acts church was a mega church.


Perhaps this is a bit nitpicky because I do agree with the spirit of your post here, but you're not suggesting that all that got saved on the Day of Pentecost attended the same church are you? The idea that they met as a "megachurch" (as we know it in the 21st century) is quite a stretch IMHO.

Again, I agree with what you and others have said, but I just wanted to make sure I know where you're coming from. I don't believe the early church met in a "Lakewood" (I just used them as a model-you could insert any mega-church here) style atmosphere. Laughing
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3/18/06 9:25 am


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Post No stretch at all Porpoise Driven Neptune
stp89 wrote:
12thman wrote:

After all, the early Acts church was a mega church.


Perhaps this is a bit nitpicky because I do agree with the spirit of your post here, but you're not suggesting that all that got saved on the Day of Pentecost attended the same church are you? The idea that they met as a "megachurch" (as we know it in the 21st century) is quite a stretch IMHO.

Again, I agree with what you and others have said, but I just wanted to make sure I know where you're coming from. I don't believe the early church met in a "Lakewood" (I just used them as a model-you could insert any mega-church here) style atmosphere. Laughing


In Acts 5:12 we read: The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade.

There were several thousand believers in the church at this time and this Scripture says that all the believers used to meet together. What would you call this if not a mega-church?
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3/18/06 10:16 am


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Post Re: No stretch at all stp89
Porpoise Driven Neptune wrote:

There were several thousand believers in the church at this time and this Scripture says that all the believers used to meet together. What would you call this if not a mega-church?


1st Century Camp Meeting? ROFL
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3/18/06 11:09 am


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Post Re: No stretch at all 12thman
Porpoise Driven Neptune wrote:
stp89 wrote:
12thman wrote:

After all, the early Acts church was a mega church.


Perhaps this is a bit nitpicky because I do agree with the spirit of your post here, but you're not suggesting that all that got saved on the Day of Pentecost attended the same church are you? The idea that they met as a "megachurch" (as we know it in the 21st century) is quite a stretch IMHO.

Again, I agree with what you and others have said, but I just wanted to make sure I know where you're coming from. I don't believe the early church met in a "Lakewood" (I just used them as a model-you could insert any mega-church here) style atmosphere. Laughing


In Acts 5:12 we read: The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade.

There were several thousand believers in the church at this time and this Scripture says that all the believers used to meet together. What would you call this if not a mega-church?


Thanks so much PDN... It was a Lakewood! How ironic that JO has taken the arena... how much more ironic for early Christians to take one of the meeting places of the Jews.

The Early Church was a Mega-Church. That alone is killing some people to have to read! Don't despise the day of small things, nor of big ones!
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3/18/06 12:31 pm


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Post notwanghere
That is very interesting. I never noticed that before. Could it have ramifications that they gathered thusly because they still saw themselves as Jews and not distinctly Christian? Was this one of the "Jewish" things Paul was upset with?

It is very interesting.
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3/18/06 1:00 pm


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Post stp89
notwanghere wrote:
That is very interesting. I never noticed that before. Could it have ramifications that they gathered thusly because they still saw themselves as Jews and not distinctly Christian? Was this one of the "Jewish" things Paul was upset with?

It is very interesting.


It is interesting- honestly I've never paid much attention to it before either although I'm sure I've read it numerous times
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3/18/06 1:10 pm


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Post A Messianic Megachurch with Cell Groups Porpoise Driven Neptune
notwanghere wrote:
That is very interesting. I never noticed that before. Could it have ramifications that they gathered thusly because they still saw themselves as Jews and not distinctly Christian? Was this one of the "Jewish" things Paul was upset with?

It is very interesting.


I guess you could say that the first church was a megachurch which, since they also met in each others' homes, operated some form of a cellgroup system.

However, we should also note that this was not necessarily what God wanted of them. In Acts 1:8 it is clear that the Holy Spirit was poured out so that they would witness in other places - not to stay in Jerusalem. In the end it took persecution to force them to be obedient & to get involved in missionary church planting.

It is true that all the church was Jewish at this time, but it may just be that the Temple was the only place in Jerusalem big enough to hold the massive crowds that were gathering.
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3/18/06 1:16 pm


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Post TheoloJohn
The dramatic difference between the Acts 2 "mega church" and Lakewood should be obvious to anyone. The early church was not a business venture whose goal was for everyone to get rich.

God soon dispersed the First MegaChurch of Jerusalem by means of persecution, because in staying huddled up in Jerusalem they could not win the world to Christ, nor be obedient to the Great Commission. Jesus had told them to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the world.
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3/18/06 1:48 pm


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Post 1st Century Lakewood? Porpoise Driven Neptune
TheoloJohn wrote:
The dramatic difference between the Acts 2 "mega church" and Lakewood should be obvious to anyone. The early church was not a business venture whose goal was for everyone to get rich.

God soon dispersed the First MegaChurch of Jerusalem by means of persecution, because in staying huddled up in Jerusalem they could not win the world to Christ, nor be obedient to the Great Commission. Jesus had told them to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the world.


Another noticeable difference is that the Jerusalem megachurch does not seem to have been a vehicle to promote one man's ministry. Peter played a leading role, but so did James.
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3/18/06 1:54 pm


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Post here we go again... 12thman
TheoloJohn wrote:
The dramatic difference between the Acts 2 "mega church" and Lakewood should be obvious to anyone. The early church was not a business venture whose goal was for everyone to get rich.

God soon dispersed the First MegaChurch of Jerusalem by means of persecution, because in staying huddled up in Jerusalem they could not win the world to Christ, nor be obedient to the Great Commission. Jesus had told them to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the world.


I just don't get it... Lakewood is a business venture where everyone's goal is to get rich? I can see every member getting up on Sunday.... "let's go kids, hurry up... you know we need to get there early so we can get a good seat! After all, you don't want to miss the opportunity to get rich!"

I would say for JO and his staff... there are a multitude of easier ways to get rich. In the whole scheme of things, a mega church financially pales in comparison to being the top ranking staff or CEO of any Forbes top 100 Company, including the salary package. If that is the Lakewood's staff's goal, then they are some of the most financially stupid people on the planet. Stupider than even you think!
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3/18/06 1:59 pm


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Post notwanghere
The title of this thread is interesting. Rejoicing in another's success demands a sympathy with the message, or actions of the one seen as successful.

IMHO Joel does not preach the whole counsel of God, therefore I can not rejoice in his success. It has nothing to do with my maturity, but rather perspectives.

I rejoice when those holding to my personal values, convictions, and perspectives are succesful.

I don't rejoice when those who have reached contrary beliefs are succesful.
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3/18/06 2:14 pm


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