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Quick Fix Formula for turning around COG decline
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Post A good way to turn around the decline . . . anoutsider
is for every pastor to grow personally. The individual COG churches that I know of that are effective and impacting more lives are the ones in which the leaders are actively pursuing personal spiritual and leadership growth. I can't change headquarters no matter what I do, but I can change the place where I serve. I can change it by changing me. If enough guys do this, the COG will change, one church at a time. Friendly Face
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2/4/08 9:22 pm


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Post Re: A good way to turn around the decline . . . Chris Stiles
anoutsider wrote:
is for every pastor to grow personally. The individual COG churches that I know of that are effective and impacting more lives are the ones in which the leaders are actively pursuing personal spiritual and leadership growth. I can't change headquarters no matter what I do, but I can change the place where I serve. I can change it by changing me. If enough guys do this, the COG will change, one church at a time.


I love this. And I have learned it to be so true.

Afterall, I can't pour out to others, unless the Lord is pouring into me. And I believe that comes through spending time with the Master.

By the way, Travis, I love your ideas. I think church planting is greatly needed. I also think we need to invest in revitatlizing some churches.
Bound By Beaulah
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2/5/08 1:05 am


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Post Re: A good way to turn around the decline . . . prefontaine
anoutsider wrote:
is for every pastor to grow personally. The individual COG churches that I know of that are effective and impacting more lives are the ones in which the leaders are actively pursuing personal spiritual and leadership growth. I can't change headquarters no matter what I do, but I can change the place where I serve. I can change it by changing me. If enough guys do this, the COG will change, one church at a time.


This is right on the money. What HQ does should not affect how you minister. Let them spend frivolously, who cares?? The Bible doesn't say to be ticked off if yout tithe isn't spent the way you want it...it just says to pay the tithe. Now then, I want the TOT to be 10% as much as anyone, but if it never happens, it is not an excuse to fail, or fall short. We serve a God with unlimited resources that HE controls. If we, as ministers, will choose to grow and learn constantly, then we will have more success.
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2/5/08 12:16 pm


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Post Molds and Blueprints? Chuck Collins
It has been at least a year since I’ve browsed Actscelerate.com. I’ve read each post on this particular thread. Travis is a bold person to come out and post a quick fix. My hat goes off to him because the discussion had to get started. I love his passion of church planting/planters as I’m one too. Selling the property might not be wise though it would be a quick dollar. I tend to think once you have some real estate hold on to it as long as you can. Re-work it.

As for change or planting a church (I’ve got a long way to go):

• I know I tried to bang pots together and it didn’t work. You would think it would work in a city of almost 450,000 people.
• I tried to look at studies, maps, demographics and follow their consult it didn’t work.
• I even tried the Pentecostal march on properties knowing that place would be mine. You guessed it. It didn’t work either.
• I tried to declare we are Pentecostal and then, as one described, as plain vanilla. It didn’t get anywhere either.
• I always think, though it needs daily work, my relationship with Jesus is good. It didn’t make the difference you would hope it to make.

What’s happening now? What seems to keep us moving and seeing the signs of growth is when we continuously toss away the mold and the blueprints. It comes down to how God sees it instead of me working a system, network, formula or blueprint. Lebron Palmer told me once “If you get involved in the community you’ll see it differently.” It came down to a “rethink” of the community in front of me.

These are the questions I ask almost everyday. What is the epidemic I’m facing in my community? What is the culture that surrounds me? How can I provide a medium to introduce them to the Kingdom of God? I don’t wait for them to attend before I do the introduction. I provide what I think will be a solution and see if people are attracted to it. If it doesn’t work then I move on to the next. Travis is right that every day and night we think of the next approach.

I believe as a church we’ve categorized ourselves and we may have lost our originality. Sure we all want change. It’s not going to be quick or easy. It could take twice as long to change as it did to get us to this point.

Right now Engage 21 is a thought not a solution. I wonder why the word Engage is used. Still, I agree with Phil Underwood and his thoughts (on another thread) of the advertising poster. It’s nice but it has the tone of being exclusive. I know it’s a start. I have to remind myself I don’t have the magic bullet either. I see that we need some serious training to endure this race of “change”. I feel that planting churches won’t stop the bleeding. Removing the molds and blueprints while changing the way we operate in the world is a start.
Stay Blended,
Chuck Collins


Last edited by Chuck Collins on 2/6/08 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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2/5/08 4:35 pm


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Post Re: Molds and Blueprints? Travis Johnson
Chuck,

I'm looking forward to hanging out with you in a few weeks and hearing about what you've got going on. One clarification from when you said:

Chuck Collins wrote:
I tend to think once you have some real estate hold on to it as long as you can. Re-work it.


We're already selling the property.

We're just not doing the greatest job of it getting to back to work in communities. That's why I said we needed to mandate the sold properties going into church planting and church planting alone. It shouldn't go to improving a parsonage, propping up the state, or any other aim other than doing the last thing that Jesus said. It happens in every state. It ought to stop so, we can start refocusing on being the Church Jesus says we are.
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2/6/08 8:04 am


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Post Make sure that people Phil Hoover
your church family feels "invested" in their local congregation's mission.

Do everything within your power to let folks know that "they matter."
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2/6/08 12:42 pm


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Post Re: Molds and Blueprints? Chuck Collins
Travis Johnson wrote:
Chuck,

I'm looking forward to hanging out with you in a few weeks and hearing about what you've got going on. One clarification from when you said:

Chuck Collins wrote:
I tend to think once you have some real estate hold on to it as long as you can. Re-work it.


We're already selling the property.

We're just not doing the greatest job of it getting to back to work in communities. That's why I said we needed to mandate the sold properties going into church planting and church planting alone. It shouldn't go to improving a parsonage, propping up the state, or any other aim other than doing the last thing that Jesus said. It happens in every state. It ought to stop so, we can start refocusing on being the Church Jesus says we are.


Oh, wow. I get the picture now. It would be nice to enlarge the budget of progressive thinking churches.

Yes, looking forward to seeing you and doing some work together in a couple of weeks.
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2/6/08 1:59 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
Does it alarm anyone that when we sell properties and those monies go into administration, the original purpose of those properties is not honored?

Would you say that when we engage in this standard practice, we are consuming ourselves to sustain ourselves?

Would we better honor the last words of Jesus if we solely focused on expanding the Kingdom instead of engorging our bureaucracy?
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2/6/08 5:01 pm


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Post Telecaster
I agree with you Travis. I just don't think all the money shoudl go into church plants as I said before. I think interviews should be set up and reports should be looked at and some of the money should go to already established churches which are little more than church plants in their own rights. Acts Enthusiast
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2/6/08 5:07 pm


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Post Some other considerations: manogod
If the goal is to set captives free and bind up the broken, and equip the believers, then maybe we should not place so much emphasis on planting traditional churches with traditional means. Before I continue, please allow me to qualify a few things:

1.) I am a pastor,
2.) I planted the church I pastor,
3.) I have planted a total of four churches both inside the U.S. and abroad.

I see several great opportunities for the COG to expand the kingdom.

1.) To revert ownership of local church property to the local church.

2.) To allow independent churches to affiliate with the COG within the US and retain ownership of their property.

3.) To maintain the 15% contribution to the COG, divided as follows; 5% to International Offices, 5% State Office Admin. and 5% retained in state strictly for resourcing new church plants.

4.) Create a House Church model that allows pastors to raise up sons and daughters in the ministry who are trained by the pastor to extend the influence of the church in a non traditional setting*.

*House churches would need to be legally incorporated under the local church and would exist to reach into the culture and not subdivide the congregation. These would not be traditional church cells or discipleship groups that are unaccountable and loosely defined. More later.
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Last edited by manogod on 2/6/08 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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2/6/08 5:35 pm


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Post Re: Some other considerations: Telecaster
manogod wrote:


3.) To raise the contribution to the denomination to 20% with 10% of that designated for resourcing new church plants.



You're kidding right? My church can barely afford the 15%!
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2/6/08 5:49 pm


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Post manogod
I modified and explained...read again here:

If the goal is to set captives free and bind up the broken, and equip the believers, then maybe we should not place so much emphasis on planting traditional churches with traditional means. Before I continue, please allow me to qualify a few things:

1.) I am a pastor,
2.) I planted the church I pastor,
3.) I have planted a total of four churches both inside the U.S. and abroad.

I see several great opportunities for the COG to expand the kingdom.

1.) To revert ownership of local church property to the local church.

2.) To allow independent churches to affiliate with the COG within the US and retain ownership of their property.

3.) To maintain the 15% contribution to the COG, divided as follows; 5% to International Offices, 5% State Office Admin. and 5% retained in state strictly for resourcing new church plants.

4.) Create a House Church model that allows pastors to raise up sons and daughters in the ministry who are trained by the pastor to extend the influence of the church in a non traditional setting*.

*House churches would need to be legally incorporated under the local church and would exist to reach into the culture and not subdivide the congregation. These would not be traditional church cells or discipleship groups that are unaccountable and loosely defined. More later.
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2/6/08 5:55 pm


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Post Telecaster
I can handle that I think a lot better! Laughing Acts Enthusiast
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2/6/08 9:10 pm


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Post How about... prefontaine
We make the TOT cut to 10%, and teach our ministers the importance of furthering the gospel through church plants and missions. Tithe is great, but that what is expected of us...offereing, on the other hand, is going above and beyond. If we teach our pastors that they are expected to give 10%, then we have more freedom to take that a step further and tell them that they need to put that other 5% into a ministry somewhere, somehow. It, of course, wouldn't be required, just like it isn't required of a member of your church, but it would , IMHO, come with a tremendous blessing.
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2/7/08 11:00 am


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Post Re: I enter this thread Steve LaFever
PastorRandy wrote:
humbly, recognizing my noob status as a COG minister and wannabe church planter who never got "picked" in my previous denomicarnation. I have some questions.

#1. This may sound like a stupid question but it is sincere. How does money help plant churches? What is the money spent on that helps the church plant be more successful than if the money wasn't there? Does lack of money make make successful church planting impossible, or just slower?

#2. What are the qualities of a successful church planter? Are some ministers gifted in church planting and others more gifted in pastoring already established works? Or can any minister become a successful church planter given the right resources, in the right place, at the right time?

#3. Are the new churches being planted Pentecostal in practice from their inception, or are they passed off as more generic, plain-vanilla type organizations to appeal to a mass market?

I hope no one takes these questions in the wrong way, but I have always had an interest in church planting, and even spoke with my former district officials about it, but for some reason I didn't fit their pattern for a church planter.


I attend a Church plant that started with 17 people and grown to over 700 in 4 years. I wasn't in the early stages, but I've heard the story and been part of it for the last 1 1/2 years when it grew from around 400 to 700.

How did money help? First, the denom (Methodist) paid the salary for the pastor to work full time without having to hold a secular job. Secondly, major professionally prepared pamplets were developed and mailed to the entire Northwest section of the City (Wichita, Kansas), on MANY Occassions. Billboards were rented announcing the opening. Professional sound equipment was purchased so the band could go to neighborhood block parties to play. The band played at fairs held in the community with booths to distribute pamplets as well as Water bottles, etc with the Church name on the bottle. (Nice) facilities were rented for the first service, as a result, I believe around 200 people attended the first service. (It dwindled to around 150 or so, and then began climbing).

Those are practical examples of how money helps.

Qualities of the pastor? Our pastor has a PhD with a dissertation in Church Planting. He and his wife took an entire year to travel the country to make in-depth visits with successful church plants. However, if I could point to one thing he does best. It is FOLLOWTHROUGH!!!!!!!!!! I've seen far too many people that make grandious plans and never follow through on anything. When the Church was around 600, he invited me to lunch to get to know me. I'm a nobody in this Church, frankly, I'm not even a member. PERSONAL attention. Remember talk is cheap, action is expensive! If there is a trend I've observed over the years with pentecostal pastors is big talk and little action. If you want to grow, you've got to work your tail off. It doesn't come from coming in Sunday morning to prepare your message. It doesn't come from "talking" about growing, it comes from going out into the community in general and your members as well to let them know they truly matter and you are there to serve them.


Generic or old fashioned pentecostal? Prior to this, I attended an long term AG that grew from about 200 to 600 in the 5 years I was there. Pentecostal, yes. I observed that the Church had leadership beyond simply the pastor that put their money where there mouth was, so they had a good financial base. The pastor started when it had 70 members and it took almost 20 years to get to the 200 to 250. Only about 3 years to go from 200 to 600. How? They built a new Church in a growing area of the city.

The methodist church we attend was planted from a larger Methodist Church with a lot of pentecostal background. Several of the pastors/associate pastors came from the AG. Our pastor is spirit filled and has preached about it in our Church. The worship is very demonstrative, though I wouldn't call it your typical COG/COGOP/AG pentecostal. IMO, it is pentecostal where it counts, and that is in power for service, rather than running the aisles, but no fruit. Thats my opinion.

On the other hand, we have a couple other large churches in town that are not pentecostal and have grown dramatically.

What do I think is the common thread? Excellence, follow through, committment, pastoral stability, financial backing.

All that said, I don't think a church has to be large to be successful. Do what you do well. If it grows, great, if it doesn't, are you truly ministering (and not just Sunday morning) to your congregation.
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2/8/08 9:55 am


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Post Re: I enter this thread Ichthus77
Steve LaFever wrote:
PastorRandy wrote:
humbly, recognizing my noob status as a COG minister and wannabe church planter who never got "picked" in my previous denomicarnation. I have some questions.

#1. This may sound like a stupid question but it is sincere. How does money help plant churches? What is the money spent on that helps the church plant be more successful than if the money wasn't there? Does lack of money make make successful church planting impossible, or just slower?

#2. What are the qualities of a successful church planter? Are some ministers gifted in church planting and others more gifted in pastoring already established works? Or can any minister become a successful church planter given the right resources, in the right place, at the right time?

#3. Are the new churches being planted Pentecostal in practice from their inception, or are they passed off as more generic, plain-vanilla type organizations to appeal to a mass market?

I hope no one takes these questions in the wrong way, but I have always had an interest in church planting, and even spoke with my former district officials about it, but for some reason I didn't fit their pattern for a church planter.


I attend a Church plant that started with 17 people and grown to over 700 in 4 years. I wasn't in the early stages, but I've heard the story and been part of it for the last 1 1/2 years when it grew from around 400 to 700.

How did money help? First, the denom (Methodist) paid the salary for the pastor to work full time without having to hold a secular job. Secondly, major professionally prepared pamplets were developed and mailed to the entire Northwest section of the City (Wichita, Kansas), on MANY Occassions. Billboards were rented announcing the opening. Professional sound equipment was purchased so the band could go to neighborhood block parties to play. The band played at fairs held in the community with booths to distribute pamplets as well as Water bottles, etc with the Church name on the bottle. (Nice) facilities were rented for the first service, as a result, I believe around 200 people attended the first service. (It dwindled to around 150 or so, and then began climbing).

Those are practical examples of how money helps.

Qualities of the pastor? Our pastor has a PhD with a dissertation in Church Planting. He and his wife took an entire year to travel the country to make in-depth visits with successful church plants. However, if I could point to one thing he does best. It is FOLLOWTHROUGH!!!!!!!!!! I've seen far too many people that make grandious plans and never follow through on anything. When the Church was around 600, he invited me to lunch to get to know me. I'm a nobody in this Church, frankly, I'm not even a member. PERSONAL attention. Remember talk is cheap, action is expensive! If there is a trend I've observed over the years with pentecostal pastors is big talk and little action. If you want to grow, you've got to work your tail off. It doesn't come from coming in Sunday morning to prepare your message. It doesn't come from "talking" about growing, it comes from going out into the community in general and your members as well to let them know they truly matter and you are there to serve them.


Generic or old fashioned pentecostal? Prior to this, I attended an long term AG that grew from about 200 to 600 in the 5 years I was there. Pentecostal, yes. I observed that the Church had leadership beyond simply the pastor that put their money where there mouth was, so they had a good financial base. The pastor started when it had 70 members and it took almost 20 years to get to the 200 to 250. Only about 3 years to go from 200 to 600. How? They built a new Church in a growing area of the city.

The methodist church we attend was planted from a larger Methodist Church with a lot of pentecostal background. Several of the pastors/associate pastors came from the AG. Our pastor is spirit filled and has preached about it in our Church. The worship is very demonstrative, though I wouldn't call it your typical COG/COGOP/AG pentecostal. IMO, it is pentecostal where it counts, and that is in power for service, rather than running the aisles, but no fruit. Thats my opinion.

On the other hand, we have a couple other large churches in town that are not pentecostal and have grown dramatically.

What do I think is the common thread? Excellence, follow through, committment, pastoral stability, financial backing.

All that said, I don't think a church has to be large to be successful. Do what you do well. If it grows, great, if it doesn't, are you truly ministering (and not just Sunday morning) to your congregation.




Is this a United Methodist Church?
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2/10/08 5:48 pm


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