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Quick Fix Formula for turning around COG decline
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Post Quick Fix Formula for turning around COG decline Travis Johnson
1. Sell closed churches.
2. Mandate that 100% of those funds go into church planting.
3. Match money raised by church planters up to $75,000 for a total of $150,000.
4. Allow churches to designate their World Missions and Home Missions giving directly to projects.



NOTES:

-a singular $1 million defunct church can yield $2,000,000 in church planting capital and 13 significant new church starts.

-church planters who do not raise substantial funds are not highly vested and are more likely to fail.

-a single state with 10 properties for sale (assuming they were only valued at an average of $500,000), could plant 65 significant new churches.

-a pipeline of church planters who have received training and are in coaching relationships with year 1-5 church planters is critical.

-plant churches in population centers upstream where culture is created. Doing this will influence countless others to more heavily involve themselves in mission.

-allowing churches to designate would unleash a flood of cash into mission being given relationally to long-term ministry partners.
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1/30/08 9:54 pm


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Post I have already fixed the problem c6thplayer1
after 20 years of this ,, I am now attending a southern Baptist church Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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1/30/08 10:43 pm


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Post Re: I have already fixed the problem Travis Johnson
c6thplayer1 wrote:
after 20 years of this ,, I am now attending a southern Baptist church


That is also a fix....not so quick though...and not so much for the COG.
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1/30/08 10:56 pm


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Post Fisher
Does anyone doubt changes are desperatly needed. But change will not come ... our system prohibits it. Kick all of them out .... oh, sorry ... I forgot the power of the Aeembly is subject to the money! Shameful! Here I believed all along they believed in a final judgement! Golf Cart Mafia Associate
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1/30/08 11:08 pm


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Post Do not doubt change is possible! Matt Boyd
I encourage you to believe the impossible! Even if we never see it in our lifetime remember the role call of Faith in Hebrews 11

“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for…

These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.”

Maybe I'm dreaming again. But it is a good dream!
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1/30/08 11:52 pm


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Post Agree and Disagree Telecaster
I'm all for church planting Travis, but I don't think your solution would actually help a declining church much more than I think the govt. going more in debt to give people of this country some $1600 will help get us out of recession.

Per Dr. Mcguire, we have witnessed for the first time a decline in Churches of God over the past year. It's not that we've never declined, but the decline has been outweighed by the gain. Not the case this time around. There are many reasons for this and we could get in to endless discussions about promises made and kept and so forth, but in the end, there are many who plant churches and then leave the denomination and there are those who have to close their doors for lack of money.

But let me throw in another suggestion. Instead of selling closed property and giving all of that money to church planting and so forth, why not target small churches already established where the pastor represents the Commission and is truly evangelizing his community? These works are more established than church plants. They already have buildings and internal structure in place. Sometimes a shot in the arm of finances could go a long way.

I'm not minimizing the need for church planting. Indeed we do, but I don't think the answer to the decline is to plant more churches. I saw some recent stats by George Barna on church plants and if I remember correctly, a little less than half make it through one year. It takes a special calling to be a church planter and we all know that. Some folks will think they are called to plant a church because they don't fit into the "cookie cutter" pastor style that some established churches want. But because they woudln't fit in, does that mean they are called to plant churches? No not at all. If the money could be given to some innovative pastors who are attempting to turn around churches and communities, I think the investment will be saved.

I think in many cases some of the decline is necessary. Let's face it. If a church has run 15 and 20 all of their existence and they've never grown but they've dwindled if anything, are they really going anywhere and aren't they probably costing the denom money which is actually prohibiting them from helping other pastors and church planters?

Again I believe in church planting, but I'm not ready to state the future of the denom on these church plants.
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1/31/08 7:26 am


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Post Telecaster
Fisher wrote:
Does anyone doubt changes are desperatly needed. But change will not come ... our system prohibits it. Kick all of them out .... oh, sorry ... I forgot the power of the Aeembly is subject to the money! Shameful! Here I believed all along they believed in a final judgement!


I completely disagree with you. I heard personally out of Dr. Mcguire's mouth that it his desire to downsize Cleveland and to get rid of all the crazy budgeting that goes on.

The EC knows change is needed. They've recognized it for a little while now. Why do you think RC is meeting with pastors? It's not to garner him votes for PB. He's probably going to get that without campaigning at all. Why do you think they've opened the Engage21 Conference to everyone? Because they want change.

don't be so quick to judge.
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1/31/08 7:28 am


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Post Not Bad mytwocents
I'd accept items one and four without objection (I really loved item 4).
Items two and three I would combine as such:

That 50% proceeds of property sales go to new church plants and 50% go toward retiring the general church of god debt; when the debt is retired then 100% of church sales go toward church plants.

That all state Evangelism Departments and International Evangelism Department be closed with all previously allocated budgets going to church plants and all present evangelists be established as church planters. They don't necessarily have to stay and pastor the church, but go to a town, evangelize it, plant the church, and move on if you like (kind of like Paul did in the NT).
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1/31/08 8:36 am


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Post Travis and Telecaster youngleader
I like both of your ideas... I think both could work... Whether it's new churches or revitalizing existing, a comprehensive interview process would need to take place in order to evaluate each planter/pastor and the situation at hand.
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1/31/08 8:47 am


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Post Re: Not Bad Telecaster
mytwocents wrote:
I'd accept items one and four without objection (I really loved item 4).
Items two and three I would combine as such:

That 50% proceeds of property sales go to new church plants and 50% go toward retiring the general church of god debt; when the debt is retired then 100% of church sales go toward church plants.

That all state Evangelism Departments and International Evangelism Department be closed with all previously allocated budgets going to church plants and all present evangelists be established as church planters. They don't necessarily have to stay and pastor the church, but go to a town, evangelize it, plant the church, and move on if you like (kind of like Paul did in the NT).


If we close the Evangelism Departments, who will coordinate the events and so forth? Who will help evangelists? Who will work for men's and women's ministries? I don't think closing them is the answer. I say revamping may be more in order.

As for having evangelists go out to plant churches, while it sounds good in theory and Paul did do that, I think it takes a special calling to do so. There aren't enough good pastors out there as it is without every evangelists deciding to plant a church wherever he goes and leaves it to someone. Who will take care of that church? Do you also suggest that the evangelists have overseer priviledges of the churches they plant like Paul did?
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1/31/08 8:48 am


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Post Travis Johnson
Telecaster,

Church plants yield exponentially more baptisms annually than existing churches. Its an established fact that on the whole, factoring in failed plants with successful plants, church planting is a more effective form of evangelism than an existing church.

Church planters have to be called. You weed them out with testing, assessment, and fund raising bench marks. In the end, you still will have called church planters have failed church plants. The most accurate church plant success rate can be found in Ed Stetzer's most recent study commissioned by LifeWay called Improving the Health and Survivability of New Churches. In this study, he shows that the actual survival rate of new churches is 68% after four years. In it, the key to survivability is proper expectation on the part of the church planter.

Check out these facts as well:


-New churches average 10-14 baptisms per year versus 1 per year by established churches.
-Survivability increased 135% when the church planter meets regularly with church planting peers. (peer coaching)
-Survivability increases.

Now, Florida is doing some great work of turning defunct properties into church plants. This is some of the most encouraging news I've seen in the COG. That is not the case everywhere. It was not the case when I came back to Florida.

Typically, we do a poor job of resourcing church plants. The people coaching are out of touch with culture and church planting practices and too often, they are also out of touch with pastoral work...at times removed by decades. That does not disqualify them from being able to lead initiatives. But, they better be leveraging other church planters to bring these guys along.

So, if the COG does not become more pro-active in the way Florida has, what future does a church planter have in the COG? While opportunities may seem limited, there are actually some decent opportunities lying hidden just out of sight.

GREAT HIDDEN OPPORTUNITIES

A church planter can request appointment at a dead, pastor killing church. Shut the church down and replant it as if it was a new church. We have hundreds of churches who go through pastors like disposable razors. They are clanish, closed, and have largely lost the right to be called a church.

Take the assets and rebrand, reform, and relaunch. The upfront price is heavy. It means you have to work outside of the church, fight with hard headed vipers, and cast a vision for a redemptive plan.

But, if you can make it through the initial battle (which may last for quite some time), you have a great opportunity to reinvest an asset into Kingdom work that has been hijacked by people who are not functioning as the Church of Jesus Christ.

The greatest church planting opportunities in the COG are in our dead and dying churches.
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1/31/08 9:09 am


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Post Well, Since You Asked mytwocents
I'll try to answer; and I appreciate your questions.

Coordinate Events: my immediate question is "what events"; Sr. Adult Retreats, etc.? Surely we have people, VOLUNTEERS, or retired ministers, who would and could coordinate these things.

I'm not for doing away with the office of evangelist, but I think the overall church would be better served to have a few "regional" evangelists rather than each state having a team. The time for the current model has come and gone.

As far as men's and women's ministries, first of all the ABs wife handles women's ministries; and I believe we have pastors and laity who could coordinate men's, prison, and others. It could be that at the state level, if the current ED was made a Church Planting coordinator they could still handle these things AS WELL as some other coordinating duties.

I'm not talking about a church planter planting a new church every year; foot, they may evangelize a town, plant the church, and stay there several years. That would be my preference. Studies show long term pastorates ARE the most effective.

Basically, I would see the evangelism teams of each state consist of men planting churches; you would stay on the team and be supported by state funds UNTIL your church became financially stable; then a slot is open, a new church and church planter added, and we keep growing from there.

Of course, the devil is in the detail of all this.
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1/31/08 9:10 am


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Post Re: Travis and Telecaster Telecaster
youngleader wrote:
I like both of your ideas... I think both could work... Whether it's new churches or revitalizing existing, a comprehensive interview process would need to take place in order to evaluate each planter/pastor and the situation at hand.


Definitely. I think if we put all of our eggs in the church plant basket, then we will undermine the existing churches who are already plugging away at their communities. Then again, if we put all of our eggs in the existing church basket then we undermine the need to plant churches.

My fear is that those who want to plant churches so bad are doing so out of the belief that the traditional church or at least modernized church (short of being emergent) is incapable of reaching the harvest. I'm not saying that is the case, but I fear it is an underlying thread in many minds.
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1/31/08 9:17 am


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Post Telecaster
Travis Johnson wrote:
Telecaster,

Church plants yield exponentially more baptisms annually than existing churches. Its an established fact that on the whole, factoring in failed plants with successful plants, church planting is a more effective form of evangelism than an existing church.

Church planters have to be called. You weed them out with testing, assessment, and fund raising bench marks. In the end, you still will have called church planters have failed church plants. The most accurate church plant success rate can be found in Ed Stetzer's most recent study commissioned by LifeWay called Improving the Health and Survivability of New Churches. In this study, he shows that the actual survival rate of new churches is 68% after four years. In it, the key to survivability is proper expectation on the part of the church planter.

Check out these facts as well:


-New churches average 10-14 baptisms per year versus 1 per year by established churches.
-Survivability increased 135% when the church planter meets regularly with church planting peers. (peer coaching)
-Survivability increases.

Now, Florida is doing some great work of turning defunct properties into church plants. This is some of the most encouraging news I've seen in the COG. That is not the case everywhere. It was not the case when I came back to Florida.

Typically, we do a poor job of resourcing church plants. The people coaching are out of touch with culture and church planting practices and too often, they are also out of touch with pastoral work...at times removed by decades. That does not disqualify them from being able to lead initiatives. But, they better be leveraging other church planters to bring these guys along.

So, if the COG does not become more pro-active in the way Florida has, what future does a church planter have in the COG? While opportunities may seem limited, there are actually some decent opportunities lying hidden just out of sight.

GREAT HIDDEN OPPORTUNITIES

A church planter can request appointment at a dead, pastor killing church. Shut the church down and replant it as if it was a new church. We have hundreds of churches who go through pastors like disposable razors. They are clanish, closed, and have largely lost the right to be called a church.

Take the assets and rebrand, reform, and relaunch. The upfront price is heavy. It means you have to work outside of the church, fight with hard headed vipers, and cast a vision for a redemptive plan.

But, if you can make it through the initial battle (which may last for quite some time), you have a great opportunity to reinvest an asset into Kingdom work that has been hijacked by people who are not functioning as the Church of Jesus Christ.

The greatest church planting opportunities in the COG are in our dead and dying churches.


I agree with most of what you said Travis. No doubt, church plants are yielding more because they are new and fresh. But here's the paradox. Did not the existing churches we pastor now not experience the same thing in their growth and prime? Sure they did. Something about a new work, attracts new people, and God does new things in that community. But we must be careful to not dispose of those church plants (as all are in theory) simply because the new has wore off.

That's why I propose a mixture of the funds. As youngleader said, I think an interview process would be in order with specific guidelines. I am one of those who took a church about to close with only 10 people in it. Finances were ruined. Debt has acrued. It's for all purposes been a church plant. We've had to start from scratch. No musicians. No teachers. No classes. No ministries. The existing people didn't even know how to turn on the air conditioners and so forth. It's been a plant of sorts. God is blessing and we're growing, but if I had more funds, I could move a little quicker in things. Then again, maybe we're moving at the pace God wants us to.

I also agree that those who are teaching church planting are in most cases out of touch. I'm excited about this Engage21 Conference coming up as I believe we're beginning to take a turn to accept a new phase in the COG.
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1/31/08 9:24 am


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Post Good Ideas COG TODAY
I'd like for us to consider giving a 2/3 match to those willing to plant in an urban setting. The COG needs to make a significant investment in those ministers who are willing to go into these areas and plant churches. It seems like a read somewhere that 80% of our population live in 20 cities. Friendly Face
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1/31/08 9:25 am


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Post Re: Not Bad Travis Johnson
mytwocents wrote:
I'd accept items one and four without objection (I really loved item 4).


mytwocents,

ITEM 4

Leveraging number 4 would leverage our cultural mindset. We long for tangible, human interaction. This would only raise the value of what we do. Truth be known, I am more of an expert on church planting in Miami than anyone in Cleveland. That may not be the case for other areas. But, I know this place and am more likely to be a better coach. I imagine that to be true for other pastors in other areas. Release those passions and talents instead of viewing our churches as revenue streams. Let them be creators, entrepreneurs, and function under an apostolic calling.


Quote:
Items two and three I would combine as such:

That 50% proceeds of property sales go to new church plants and 50% go toward retiring the general church of god debt; when the debt is retired then 100% of church sales go toward church plants.

That all state Evangelism Departments and International Evangelism Department be closed with all previously allocated budgets going to church plants and all present evangelists be established as church planters. They don't necessarily have to stay and pastor the church, but go to a town, evangelize it, plant the church, and move on if you like (kind of like Paul did in the NT).


While I understand your heart for us to become more disciplined financially...a sentiment with which I couldn't more heartily agree, here's my issue with that:

Our inability to properly steward funds on an international level should not cheat our primary call to do the mission of Jesus Christ. Further, our international and state offices have done relatively nothing to invest and create these properties. However, there over gleaning of the local church may have been responsible for the demise of the local church. We shouldn't compound the problem by dividing up the loot and handing it over to the murderous culprit. It sounds harsh. But, if you can look past the brutality of the comment, I think you can agree that there is causal correlation to the price exacted from these dead churches.

So, what do we do?
IHQ and our State Offices get themselves into these messes, let them bail themselves out. Stop this business of overtaxation such as is the practice in Arkansas and Michigan with the levying of an additional 1%. I question the ability of that practice to square with the COG Minutes.

Let them downsize, cut back, spend less, distribute authority, consolidate regions, or whatever they have to do to get off the backs of the Mission of Jesus. We climb on the backs of the Mission of Christ like a drowning man trying to save himself on the back of a noble passerby. In the end, no one is saved. Even the noble man who jumped in to save the drowning man is killed.

Because we esteem the mission of Jesus more highly than our administrative dysfunction, we must reinvest the monies which have been raised in communities for the work of Jesus back in to actually doing the work of Jesus. We cannot afford to bail out the mission-optional bureaucracy that has become too large, too fast, and too unsustainable. It needs to break so we can re-establish something that will actually work as opposed to allowing itself to sustain itself by consuming itself.
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1/31/08 9:30 am


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Post punderwood
Travis,

With all due respect, the organization probably does not have 65 capable church planters that are as culturally sensitive and adaptable as needed for such a venture.

Your tenets,
Quote:

-a single state with 10 properties for sale (assuming they were only valued at an average of $500,000), could plant 65 significant new churches.

-a pipeline of church planters who have received training and are in coaching relationships with year 1-5 church planters is critical.


This is definitely a long-term proposition with where the organization is today and the pathos that is instilled. You, and others like you, are anomalies in this big pond. The operation of your design should not be handled centrally but by an effective group of practitioners that are already in the pool and splashing around.
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Acts-celerater
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1/31/08 9:32 am


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Post Phil COG TODAY
I disagree

I think we could find 100 people who are culturely sensitive and adaptable as you say it within months that would sign up to plant a church if they knew there was going to be a significant investment in their church plant. Most people I know that consider planting hesitate because of funding.

Do you travel outside the southern COG states? What do you mean by culturely sensitive and adaptable? Are you suggesting that someone who is classically pentecostal & believes in holiness cannot be those things?
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1/31/08 9:43 am


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Post Who will coordinate the events and so forth? Matt Boyd
Telecaster,

Top down programs that are initiated by HQ are a big part of the problem. Each department provides programs that they decide we in the field need. The unique needs and culture of each district/state should be focused upon in hopes to reach the lost of that area. Local churches and districts can come up with mission trips, youth conferences men’s conference etc on their own. If we have to have to bring our people to something with a superstar Christian who charges a lot of money we could plan together to bring our people to one of their events that is not sponsored by the COG. We would save thousands of dollars that could be used to for the mission!

We could call it empowering those on the mission field of America! Each state overseer could work with each district and dream with those pastors and evangelists about how they could reach their specific community, ask God for a vision, partner with other churches and denominations in that district and win that district for Christ.

When we stop focusing on who gets the credit and who’s church the person attends we will start doing the work of the Kingdom of God instead of the Kingdom of the Church of God. After God has given the vision, State Overseers could meet with leaders in Cleveland and present these initiatives for their districts then the millions of dollars that were spent on giant events, conferences and salaries for these department heads and their staff can be distributed to the states to empower the local ministers to reach their communities and plant new churches.
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1/31/08 9:52 am


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Post Travis, Just a Reminder mytwocents
I'm not good a posting quotes, but in your reply regarding COG debt you said in effect headquarters got themselves into that debt, let them get out of it.

I'm sure some of the debt was from poor decisions at the top. The debt I speak of eliminating is the debt owed on the expansion of the offices at general headquarter, a debt that WE got ourselves into. This debt was approved by the GENERAL ASSEMBLY, so WE have the obligation to retire it. Retire that debt and then fund church planting 100% would be my thoughts.
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1/31/08 10:05 am


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