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Documents from the Top 100 Pastors Meeting (post 1 of 3)

 
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Post Documents from the Top 100 Pastors Meeting (post 1 of 3) Travis Johnson
The document below was distributed at the Top 100 Pastors gathering. You can grab the PDF version of the document here. I'll be posting the other two documents I have which break down the attendance and giving for the Top 127 churches later.

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11/2/07 8:52 am


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Post Travis, fire-starter
Where do you get this stuff from? Acts Enthusiast
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11/2/07 11:06 am


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Post Darrell Garrett
Call me stupid, but I don't get it.
Just what is this showing?
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11/2/07 11:20 am


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Post Some Thoughts... Yo Dude
Isn't it odd that after DECADES of electing the pastors of the largest churches to our top leadership positions, we STILL are a church with most of our membership/churches/attendance in smaller churches?

Very simply, maybe our goal should not be to "have a bunch of large churches." It is obvious that we do small churches better (as does every Pentecostal denomination). Yes, the AOG may have more larger churches, but the also have more small churches.

And yet the only people fit to serve, apparently, are those who through luck of the draw, have a large church.

Tell you what, let's take our large church pastors and place them in Montana and see if they come up with a mega-church.

And yet...is there a member of the Council of 18 who is a pastor that is not pastoring a relatively large church (top 20%).

Look, folks, over 80% of our churches are very small, and only 2% are really large. And yet we fall all over ourselves, this seminar, that conference, this program, and so forth, thinking that if we just do this, ALL of churches will blossom likewise.

There is no formula for great growth. I've been to small churches where the preacher could easily outpreach the pastor of the mega-church across town. I've been to churches that had much better music than a large church (or at least as good). Churches that had PLENTY of ministries.

There's no formula. It's about as close to LUCK as you can get in spiritual things. No doubt there's good preaching and organization. I see that quite often at the small-church-level also. And if you put these big time pastors in these small churches, there is little chance of them duplicating the same success.

There is just a "clicking" that happens--right pastor, right place, right facilities, right ministries, right demographic, right season, etc. If just one of these things is missing, it's just a regular, small church, often.

I say let's have 80% of our representation done by small church pastors. They at least can understand and hear the heart of those who serve in the field!

The finest preacher in the State of Florida pastors a small church just a bit east of Tampa Bay. He can stand on ANY campmeeting stage in our denomination and totally rock. There's not an active preacher in our denomination that can outpreach him.

He pastors a quite modest church.

It's just more religious scam, as far as I'm concerned. Only the "connected" stay connected.
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11/2/07 11:30 am


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Post Darrell Garrett
Aha... I figured it out. I did not realize the % totals on the right were cumulative. Maybe because if you add them up, there are a couple of mistakes there. But I got it. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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11/2/07 11:30 am


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Post roughridercog
It could show possibly that the highest degree of cash flow coming in has the loudest voice in what gets done.

Just thinking out loud here.
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11/2/07 11:38 am


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Post Re: Some Thoughts... Jerry Lawson
Yo Dude wrote:


There is no formula for great growth. I've been to small churches where the preacher could easily outpreach the pastor of the mega-church across town. I've been to churches that had much better music than a large church (or at least as good). Churches that had PLENTY of ministries.

There's no formula. It's about as close to LUCK as you can get in spiritual things. No doubt there's good preaching and organization. I see that quite often at the small-church-level also. And if you put these big time pastors in these small churches, there is little chance of them duplicating the same success.

There is just a "clicking" that happens--right pastor, right place, right facilities, right ministries, right demographic, right season, etc. If just one of these things is missing, it's just a regular, small church, often.

It's just more religious scam, as far as I'm concerned. Only the "connected" stay connected.


Yo Dude,
That really makes things a lot easier. Just knowing that the pastors of larger churches just got "lucky" and everything just "clicked" for them really takes a load off of my mind. Now I don't have to study their methods. I don't have to learn anything from them. I don't have to look at myself to see if I'm deficient in some area. No reason to even worry about those things....it's all in the hands of "luck".

Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.net
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11/2/07 12:26 pm


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Post sobering stats Bro Bob
My first opportunity to attend a large Church of God came like most children of this denomination: Upon attending Lee.

I went to North Cleveland. Didn't feel like church to me, I preferred chapel on campus.

I went to South Cleveland. Again, it didn't feel like church, and they were so accustomed to having Lee students there, they hardly noticed.

I went to Westmore. The Sunday school class was good, but too large, it was just another lecture like biology class was.

I went to Ooltewah. Fell in love with their piano player.

But lately I have come to appreciate things about a larger church. Rainbow City had 147 my first Sunday, 13 years ago. We run a little over 300 now. At our size and with our annual budget, we can provide ministry and services for a broader range of demographics. Big advantage for a man who had a 9 year old and a 7 year old at the time.

But we can do better, and we already should have. A church of 700 can reach an even broader 'market'.

Smaller churches are bound by economics that absorb 100% of their budget for the church facilities, and paying one person. Without a vision to get beyond that, as well as the ability to secure facilities for that next level it will almost never happen.

There is another 'wall' at that 300 to 500 level. Almost every church stuck at that level operates the same way, and they do not know how to plan for operation at 1000 to 1500.

If you pastor a church of 75 to 100, go learn from a church like ours about how they did it.

If you are in one like ours, go learn about how the guys with 1000 do it.

It won't be the same. You won't like some of it, or feel at home with it. You may find yourself confronted with the realization that you are already achieving the vision that is actually inside you. It starts looking like the parable of the talents very quickly.

Look at Daystar's ( Cullman ) web site and see how many ministries they do. Much of it with zero expectation of it paying it's own way.

Look at Tom Sterben's church. Same thing.

But these men, and these places aren't super human. They are working their rear end off. And they are meeting the challenge of "As you have done it for the least of these..."

...just some rambling...
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11/2/07 12:48 pm


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Post Jerry Lawson... Yo Dude
I did not mean to imply that just anyone could go to those mega-churches and make them fly.

No, there is definitely the requirement for skill as a speaker, administrator, etc.

BUT...here's what I've learned....

Of all the self-help commentaries that have been published about church growth--of which I have been a customer--I have found that they seldom (if ever) really transform the churches of the pastors who read them.

That is, it may excite the pastor, it may enthuse him...but that does not translate into church growth.

I remember reading Purpose-Driven Church. Man, oh, man! That looked like the ticket. Then I got to realizing some things:

First, most of it was just commonsense that had been very well articulated by Bro. Warren--and with success in his particular niche.

Second, even if I did it exactly as he said--flying in the face of all the realities within my local church--I would likely not get the same results.

Please don't think I think mega-pastors don't have "the goods." I know good and well they are great men. BUT...they are often not that different from the men I meet that pastor churches on a much smaller scale. They simply landed in a place that was highly-fertile soil for their efforts.

In other venues, the would be also-rans.

Likewise, you take some small timers and put them in the right place, and they, too, can run 300 plus (or perhaps even 3000 plus).

Surely you have seen that in your own ministry. They guy preaching campmeeting may not even be a very good speaker--but he's the guy on the stage and will likely get the votes come GA time.

The singers who get all the attention...they may not be as good as your group, but they somehow have a connection to the powers that be.

Very simply, these mega-church pastors are not somehow "special." They are good and gifted men. Just like YOU are a good and gifted man.

Here's a thought experiment. Let's say that we play "musical churches." Everyone moves at random and then--boom!--we sit down in a new church. Within 5 years, we'll have a much-revised set of mega-churches. Some of these will be pastored by men who were not mega-pastors before. Some might even be from the former mega-pastors (assuming they, too, land in the right place). But do that a few times, and I'll bet that we find that there is less rhyme or reason to it than we thingk.

Perhaps a better term than "luck" is "God's sovereign favor." This is not something that can be had because you read someone's book.
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11/2/07 1:17 pm


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Post Scott Simms
I get the first number in the percentage line but I do not undersatnd the second. For instance in 51-100 range the percentage of church's is 28 but what does the 74% represent


Never mind I get it now. I had to slap my head, i really feel stupid because I do numbers in my second job.
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11/2/07 1:22 pm


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Post Re: Jerry Lawson... Jerry Lawson
Yo Dude wrote:
Here's a thought experiment. Let's say that we play "musical churches." Everyone moves at random and then--boom!--we sit down in a new church. Within 5 years, we'll have a much-revised set of mega-churches. Some of these will be pastored by men who were not mega-pastors before. Some might even be from the former mega-pastors (assuming they, too, land in the right place). But do that a few times, and I'll bet that we find that there is less rhyme or reason to it than we thingk.

Perhaps a better term than "luck" is "God's sovereign favor." This is not something that can be had because you read someone's book.


Yo Dude,

I've been in the COG for all of my life and "playing musical chairs" is exactly what most pastors have been doing all of that time. If they were going to "magically" hit their special place most of these guys would have hit it by now. And as for the idea that if someone else were in the place of the "mega church pastor" he, too, would have similar success - what about those guys who were there before and didn't have success???

I can only say that for me, I refuse to believe that Jim Bolin got lucky and his church grew to 7,000 or that Bryan Cutshall lucked his way to a church of 3,000. No, I want to know what's the difference in these guys and me. I want to know how I can grow and be better. In fact, I have always visited pastors from larger churches and gleaned from them to learn more and to grow personally. And I guess the reason why I believe that the men in larger churches are sometimes different is because I have visited many of them, asked questions, learned...and I have found out that they are different. There's are reason why their church is a mega church and mine is not. I want to know why.

Just my O!

Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.net
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11/2/07 2:23 pm


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Post Jerry, the reason I say "luck" Yo Dude
Is because if could be successfully made into a formula, it would be taking place all over.

If I wrote a book on how to turn sand into gold--and it worked!--don't you think the beaches would be solid gold by now? Everyone would be doing it!

I also don't mean to imply that a super-successful pastor in one church won't also be successful in another--thought I find that is usually not the case. Yes, they are still great pastors, but they usually don't have the same sort of success.

And I certainly don't mean to imply that someone without any education or theological training can drop into Mt. Paran and the church not suffer.

Instead, I'm just trying to get across the point that THERE IS NO FORMULA. If there were, we'd all be doing it by now.

Very simply, what works for one pastor at this church, will not work for you at another.

Nor, for that matter, would it likely work for HIM at another church.

"Luck" was not the right word, obviously. I know that there is some skill, experience, and wisdom involved. I'm just saying that that goes on in small churches, too...but without the same results.
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11/2/07 5:19 pm


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Post Re: Jerry, the reason I say "luck" Jerry Lawson
Yo Dude wrote:
Is because if could be successfully made into a formula, it would be taking place all over.

If I wrote a book on how to turn sand into gold--and it worked!--don't you think the beaches would be solid gold by now? Everyone would be doing it!

I also don't mean to imply that a super-successful pastor in one church won't also be successful in another--thought I find that is usually not the case. Yes, they are still great pastors, but they usually don't have the same sort of success.

And I certainly don't mean to imply that someone without any education or theological training can drop into Mt. Paran and the church not suffer.

Instead, I'm just trying to get across the point that THERE IS NO FORMULA. If there were, we'd all be doing it by now.

Very simply, what works for one pastor at this church, will not work for you at another.

Nor, for that matter, would it likely work for HIM at another church.

"Luck" was not the right word, obviously. I know that there is some skill, experience, and wisdom involved. I'm just saying that that goes on in small churches, too...but without the same results.


Yo Dude,
It has taken a few posts, but I think we are pretty close to each other on this issue. But here is one thing to consider. You say that there is no formula to success, and I agree. However, consider this - there are weight loss formulas all around, books written, etc. Most of these formulas will work to varying degrees for anyone who tries them. Why are we not all thin? Sacrifice, dedication, will-power, work ethic...
Similarly, there are some proven practices that successful pastors follow that WILL WORK ANYWHERE. Some pastors I know have proven this fact by being successful at every stop. The practices I value worked at my church when we were running 60, 600 and 1200. My point? Sometimes it comes down to hard work, teach-ability and sacrifice. These work every time they are tried.

Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.net
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11/2/07 8:43 pm


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Post 70% bi-vocational is alarming bwm
to me anyway...someone may have already posted along these lines but what a shame that the great majority of the pastors aren't able to put 100% in the duty/ calling and the tithe of tithe remains a requirement. just my opinion but this is a joke.
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11/3/07 5:44 pm


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Post Travis archie
Thank you for this enlightening report. Tell me, does the EC have this info and did any of this come up at your meeting?
Also, as to the bi-vo pastors, it seems to me that our administrative leadership as they are planning meetings and seminars and conferences should hold this statistic foremost in their minds as they schedule these events to consider those who have to take time off from work. Not only do they have to pay to get there but they lose income from their jobs. We need leadership to ask these people when the best times are to schedule state events. IMHO
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11/5/07 9:04 am


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Post Re: Travis Travis Johnson
archie wrote:
Thank you for this enlightening report. Tell me, does the EC have this info and did any of this come up at your meeting?
Also, as to the bi-vo pastors, it seems to me that our administrative leadership as they are planning meetings and seminars and conferences should hold this statistic foremost in their minds as they schedule these events to consider those who have to take time off from work. Not only do they have to pay to get there but they lose income from their jobs. We need leadership to ask these people when the best times are to schedule state events. IMHO


Archie,

I wasn't at the meeting. The EC does have this info. Ultimately, everyone has this info. Its available in every State News. The info we don't have readily accessible is denominational data.

You are right about bi-vo pastors. Having been one for 4 years between a church plant in Chicago and our first two years in Miami, I know that it presents significant challenges...but not insurmountable. If the Gospel of Jesus is truly powerful, there are no circumstances too great, whether you are to remain bi-vo or have a desire to emerge from making tents to lead the church full-time.

There is no valid reason why every conference and meeting is not at least podcasted for free. Further, there is no reason, beyond political considerations why the General Assembly is not at least broadcasted to regional sites and OBs be allowed to vote in real time (via internet if necessary).

Unfortunately, as it stands, a disproportionate number of appointees are able to shape the future of the denomination. All too often, what is in the best interest of keeping the denominational machine moving forward is in direct opposition to what is in the best interest of the local church and the mission of Jesus. That's too bad for the Top 100 churches. That's too bad for the bi-vocational pastor and his church. It works out pretty well for the system though.
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11/6/07 12:26 pm


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Post Re: archie 2ndgeneration
archie wrote:
Thank you for this enlightening report. Tell me, does the EC have this info and did any of this come up at your meeting?
Also, as to the bi-vo pastors, it seems to me that our administrative leadership as they are planning meetings and seminars and conferences should hold this statistic foremost in their minds as they schedule these events to consider those who have to take time off from work. Not only do they have to pay to get there but they lose income from their jobs. We need leadership to ask these people when the best times are to schedule state events. IMHO


The EC did not plan the meeting in Atlanta. It was an unofficial planned by one of the members of the Council of 18 with the permission of the General Overseer to discuss issues relating to the denomination which effects all churches.

Most of the pastor's that were there have pastored small churches in their ministry. Several of these even planted their church. As for me, I had to work outside of the first two churches I pastored to supplement my income.

Many things that were spoken in the meeting was done so with the smaller churches in mind.
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11/7/07 9:26 am


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