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 Re: No scriptural basis...again |
His disciple |
| Memory03 wrote: | | His disciple wrote: | | Memory03 wrote: | | His disciple wrote: | | Memory03 wrote: | | His disciple wrote: | | Memory03 wrote: | | no difference than checkers if you don't gamble with it. checkers could be wrong if you gamble with it. |
The scriptural basis against gambling is?
It's funny to me the youth doing a raffle is not gambling. Having a cash prize for whomever wins the church chili cook-off is not gambling. Some even kid themselves into thinking purchasing insurance is not gambling...but it is.  |
who's youth are doing a raffle? not mine...
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I suppose you have no insurance on your church building, right? |
if you really suppose that, you would be mentally challenged...
give me a scripture that says it's ok to gamble...give me a scripture that says it bad to use cocaine...give me a scripture that says it's not ok to drive your car into a bridge... |
The scripture against cocaine would fall under the same scriptures that tell us to be self-controlled. You are not self controlled if you are using cocaine. Drunkenness scriptures would also apply. Technically, I wouldn't call driving your car into a bridge a sin. I'd call it stupid but not a sin.
I can't give you a scripture saying it is okay to gamble anymore than I can give you a scripture that says it's okay to use a public restroom. However, I would hope that you know that we, as Christians, don't determine what is sinful by what the Word allows. We determine sin by what it forbids. If not by scripture, how do you determine gambling to be sinful? How do you explain it to your members? |
you could easily fit gambling into the "Self Control" scripture. As it usually causes destruction in the family unit. I saw a news report the other day that said statistics show that over 90% of the people buying lottery tickets are using food/medicine/bill moneys to buy these tickets and that the majority of them are living below poverty level. Would you call those actions sinful? I would...
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No, you could fit abuse of gambling into the self control scriptures. If I use control and I don't spend money that I can't afford to loose then I AM being self controlled. As far as statistics go, you can find some that say about anything you want them to say. Do people spend money they don't have on the lottery, absolutely. Is it Sinful? Absolutely. But it is sinful because they are being poor stewards of what God has given them. It is sinful for someone to buy a Cadillac when they can't afford one. It is sinful for a church to build a bigger building and cut out missions. It is sinful for someone to buy a house and then not be able to give to others because the payment is smothering them. But what made it sinful? The fact that they bought a house or the fact that the weren't wise in how much they spent?
Unless you can say that every penny you spend is necessary for your basic survival or advances the kingdom (not likely in the country), you probably have no room to talk about the guy who plays in a $20 poker game with his friends. And you certainly shouldn't tell him he is sinning without more than what you have stated here.
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Matthew 7:25 |
Friendly Face
Posts: 249
2/23/06 1:48 pm
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| Insurance isn't gambling |
Nature Boy Florida |
It is a group of people "pooling" their money to cover for losses that are statistically (actuarily) going to happen to a percentage of them.
Believe me - "winning" and getting a "payout" is the last thing you would want on term life insurance.
That is the opposite of gambling... where winning there IS the goal so you can spend it on yourself.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
2/23/06 2:11 pm
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| Gambling |
Worker4Christ |
This is one of those things that you will justify in your own mind if your going to do it. It is like preaching on not being a drunk but then saying "Well it's okay to just have a drink or two".
You could argue this forever but the point is that in your heart it's either sin or it's not.
The insurance things down right retarted 
It is the law to have insurance in Texas and many other States. It's not the law to gamble. Protecting the church, home and family is common sense and gambling has nothing to do with making "wise" decisions for my family.
But if you ever do win- don't forget to give God the first 10 percent of that increase  |
Friendly Face
Posts: 157
2/23/06 2:14 pm
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| Re: No scriptural basis...again |
TheoloJohn |
The reason why buying insurance is different from gambling is twofold:
1. It's the law when it comes to your vehicle, and for the greater good of society. Can you imagine what it would be like if no one had car insurance? How could you be expected to pay for the damages resulting from an accident, either for your own car or the other guy's?
2. Buying insurance is different from gambling because you actually receive something of intrinsic value, not just a shot at something of intrinsic value.
While I of course agree there is no scripture per se that forbids gambling, buying insurance is definitely not equivalent to gambling.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/23/06 3:07 pm
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| Term Life Insurance |
His disciple |
regarding the insurance comments. If you guys don't think it's a gamble you need to let the insurance companies know. I can tell you for an absolute fact everything is based on odds and statistics.
I never said automobile liability insurance. Although the fact it is required by law makes it no less of a gamble. I'm unaware of any state the requires you to carry collision insurance. Liability insurance is the only insurance I have ever heard of the law requiring.
On a 10 year term life insurance policy, your money is not pooled with anything. The insurance company takes the money and invest it. They determine what the odds are of having to pay your claim and set the rates accordingly. That's why a 23 year old could get a $500,000 ten year policy for next to nothing. On the other hand, the same policy for a 60 year old would be incredibly expensive. Lets take an example of a 30 year old man with two kids who buys a 20 year term policy. The company looks at his health, his profession, and his family history and determines if they are likely to have to pay a claim. The set a premium that you have to pay in order to get the insurance. At that point, the man decides if it is worth the money to protect his family. If so, he has now agreed to pay a set fee on monthly, quarterly, or annual basis to ensure his family gets taken care of if he dies. So, the insurance company is gambling that he will not die. If he does, they will certainly loose money on the deal. If he doesn't, they pocket 100% of his money and pay nothing. From the man's point of view, if he dies, his family will get a large sum of money beyond what they have paid. If he doesn't die, he is out the entire amount of the premium and has gained nothing.
He may not want to "win" (cash in) but trust me, he IS gambling. No law requires you to get life insurance and most people, like the lottery, pay and never "cash in". The insurance companies are making billions from it. It might even be called a wise gamble, but it is a gamble.
John: I assume you mean by "intrinsic value" the peace of mind insurance gives. I agree. Since this thread was about poker, not playing the lotto, the "intrinsic value" might be the fellowship that posters have said they have when they play cards. Or the enjoyment of the game itself.
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Matthew 7:25 |
Friendly Face
Posts: 249
2/23/06 3:52 pm
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| Now that is funny |
Kenny L Flaming |
| arcticgolfer1 wrote: | | Man I'm glad this is about poker, when I saw it I thought it was about the sequel to Brokeback Mountain. |
I don't care who you are!
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http://www.crosspointe-church.net
Formerly "WardlinePastor" |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1360
2/23/06 3:58 pm
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| Re: Term Life Insurance |
TheoloJohn |
| His disciple wrote: | | John: I assume you mean by "intrinsic value" the peace of mind insurance gives. I agree. Since this thread was about poker, not playing the lotto, the "intrinsic value" might be the fellowship that posters have said they have when they play cards. Or the enjoyment of the game itself. |
No, I meant the intrinsic value of the greater good for one's family and society in general that insurance provides. Having had friends and family who were uninsured, leaving the family to pay for a funeral and burial, (to say nothing of a family that may be suddenly bereft of its sole provider) there's no question in my mind that it is a greater good to pay for life insurance, and therein lies the intrinsic value of it--insurance against unforeseen difficulties.
Peace of mind can and should be gotten from other things.
(Please note I agree that gambling per se is nowhere condemned in Scripture).
Blessings,
TJ
P.S. If like me your vehicle is still technically owned by the lending institution or the manufacturer (in the case of a lease), then you have to have comprehensive coverage.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006
Last edited by TheoloJohn on 2/23/06 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/23/06 4:20 pm
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| Would"nt this issue...... |
sheepdogandy |
and a ton of others come under the heading of "convictions"?
Where there is no clear scripture reference?
Remember the first century controversy over eating meat offered to idols.
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Charles A. Hutchins
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Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7298
2/23/06 4:22 pm
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notwanghere |
My opinion is that gambling is an effort to claim someone Else's money by either ability or luck without earning it by labor. This to me is wrong. To me insurance has no relevance to the issue.
I am opposed to gambling in any form. I believe church raffles are an insult to God's method of Church finance. They epitomize the latest "seed giving" concept. I will give, because I might get. A pathetic justification of carnal behavior. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/23/06 8:57 pm
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Memory03 |
| notwanghere wrote: | My opinion is that gambling is an effort to claim someone Else's money by either ability or luck without earning it by labor. This to me is wrong. To me insurance has no relevance to the issue.
I am opposed to gambling in any form. I believe church raffles are an insult to God's method of Church finance. They epitomize the latest "seed giving" concept. I will give, because I might get. A pathetic justification of carnal behavior. |
I agree with you Twang...
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Be Blessed!
Memory03
8233 post at the original Acts Board...
Real Men get their haircut in a Barber Shop... The rest go to beauty parlors... |
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Posts: 21953
2/23/06 9:43 pm
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| Re: Term Life Insurance |
Porpoise Driven Neptune |
| His disciple wrote: | If you guys don't think it's a gamble you need to let the insurance companies know. I can tell you for an absolute fact everything is based on odds and statistics.
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Just because something is based on odds & statistics does not make it gambling. Putting your money on deposit in a bank is based on odds & statistics (how many borrowers will default etc)
Insurance is a social contract between a group of people that allows them to cover unanticipated liabilities. It is no different from a group of businesses forming a trade organization, or any other social contract.
I found the following quote from Wikipedia informative:
In gaming or gambling, the game is fixed at the start so that the odds are not affected by the players. However, to obtain certain types of insurance, such as fire insurance, policyholders are often required to conduct risk mitigation practices, such as installing sprinklers and using fireproof building materials to reduce the odds of loss to fire. In addition, after a proven loss, insurers specialize in providing rehabilitation to minimize the total loss.
While insurance is analogous to gambling in terms of risk and reward, the main difference is in the motivation behind the process (risk seeking vs. risk avoidance). When gambling, you are assuming risk that you would not otherwise be exposed to that has the possibility of either a loss or a gain (speculative risk). With insurance, you are managing risk that you could not otherwise avoid, and which does not present the possibility of gain (pure risk). |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 969
2/24/06 9:45 am
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| Re: Term Life Insurance |
notwanghere |
| Porpoise Driven Neptune wrote: | | His disciple wrote: | If you guys don't think it's a gamble you need to let the insurance companies know. I can tell you for an absolute fact everything is based on odds and statistics.
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. When gambling, you are assuming risk that you would not otherwise be exposed to that has the possibility of either a loss or a gain (speculative risk). With insurance, you are managing risk that you could not otherwise avoid, and which does not present the possibility of gain (pure risk).[/i] |
A perfect explanation of the difference. Thanks |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/24/06 10:05 am
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| Risk Avoidance |
His disciple |
Again, I am talking about life insurance. However, risk avoidance or hedging is still a gamble. You are assuming the purpose is more noble because you are trying to protect something; however, for this to be certain you are having to assume it is some degenerate gambler risking his family's mortgage payment. That is not always the case anymore than a person is a glutton just because they drive a nice car. Several posters have said they do it for fun and end up Gambling less than the cost of a Dinner at Outback or a Movie. To assume everyone who gambles is doomed to financial ruin is just plain crazy. Trust me, I see more people bankrupt from buying expensive cars and houses they couldn't afford than I do from Gambling. About a ten to one ratio. Yet, I never hear anyone say we should stop buying nice cars and houses. Quite the opposite. It was too long ago everyone was listing the cars they drive. Some of you have no room to talk about Poker being a waste of God's money.
Again, we have to be careful when we tell someone they are sinning for Gambling $10 in a card Game with friends. Not one person has offered up any scriptural backing for this and you can't just say it is wrong because you think it is wrong. (This is the argument some other denominations use to say we are wrong for speaking in tongues). If you are gambling to get rich, then one might be sinning because he is operating out of greed and lust. If someone gambles with money that will hurt them financially or cause them to be unable to give to those in need, then they are sinning because they are being a poor steward. If he is doing it because it gives an opportunity to socialize, how can you possibly call it sin?
_________________
Matthew 7:25 |
Friendly Face
Posts: 249
2/24/06 11:35 am
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His disciple |
si
_________________
Matthew 7:25 |
Friendly Face
Posts: 249
2/24/06 11:36 am
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myinquringmind |
| Quote: | | No, I meant the intrinsic value of the greater good for one's family and society in general |
Then how can u say that it i play $1 lotto ticket and win 10 million dollars that it isnt good for my family to be set for the rest of their lives.
Playing the stock market and having investments would be gambling. When you buy stock in a company or put money into a 401K or an IRA you are "taking a chance" that company X does good or bad. They do good you make a profit, they do bad you lose money. Think this isnt true go ask a few retirees that retired 5 or 10 years ago. When the stock market went down a few years ago I know several that lost a good bit of money that they had invested. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 100
2/24/06 3:21 pm
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Porpoise Driven Neptune |
Did I miss a question in Spanish somewhere in this thread? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 969
2/24/06 4:08 pm
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| True story about Texas Hold 'em |
Far From Cleveland |
A while back my brother (who is a CoG minister) taught my children (ages 9 & 11) to play this evil game when I was busy doing the Lord's Work. Corruption from within the camp...yikes!!!
Since that time we have spent about 72 hours in counseling, 117 hours in prayer meetings & $3,568 in medications trying to disinfect the minds of our children from the evil game. NOT!!!
It's just a game.
Gamble if you want to. I choose not to because every time I gamble, I lose. Slots, lottery, poker...if it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all. Last week is the perfect example...those Cornshuckers won the lottery instead of me. I won't play the lottery again until the jackpot gets big enough to tempt me. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 174
2/26/06 9:19 am
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| Far from Cleveland |
myinquringmind |
| Quote: | | Since that time we have spent about 72 hours in counseling, 117 hours in prayer meetings & $3,568 in medications trying to disinfect the minds of our children from the evil game. NOT!!! |
you got other problems man. that is alot of money to spend because you kids learned how to play a card game. if it is wrong to play texas hold em for fun then playing xbox or PS2 is wrong and a sin as well. better not get caught playing monopoly or clue. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 100
2/26/06 11:41 am
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| To myinquiringming |
Far From Cleveland |
You highlighted & responded to my first paragraph (which was a joke).
Read my last paragraph, too.
Don't you know that you can't take any preacher seriously until he starts to "close the message". Everything before that is just build up for the emotional response.
There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits a person from playing a card game...and even a friendly wager doesn't hurt. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 174
2/27/06 9:26 am
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bigmansam |
| nothings wrong with playing poker, it's a fun game, but if you take it as far as gambling then yes it's wrong. |
New Member
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8/17/07 9:28 pm
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