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Why our church has decided to withdraw from the COG
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Post Why our church has decided to withdraw from the COG Jamie Noel
First of all, let me say that this denom has been close to my heart for many years. It runs deep in my heritage. My father pastored for 43 years. My oldest brother has served in state capacities and now works for a great man of God. My second oldest works as a music minister and my other brother worked for Lee for several years.

Then there is me.....I started The Journey Church over two years ago with no intention of being in the COG. But a scholarship was offered and we decided that maybe we should be a part and try to offer change.

I commend the COG for putting the finances they have in this church. However, the promised amount was not given. My disappointment does not lie in that alone. Our decision was not based solely on what happened. As great as our leaders are, my biggest disappointment has been this....

The way the COG is structured (good ole boy society), it offers no support or defense for the local pastor. Let me explain before the onslaught begins. When I sat down with my AB and explained that our grant was cut, all I received were excuses. In fact, I got the "you should be grateful for what you got" routine. We are very grateful, however, we were lied to by someone in high position. Now, please know the one serving as my AB had absolutely nothing to do with it. He is a great man and I respect him.

But our structure should be set up for an AB to take defense of his local pastors in situations like this. We all know that his career as an AB would be over if he had scheduled a meeting with the EC and myself and demanded accountibility from them and that the promised funds be delivered.

Because our AB's cannot do this, there are dozens, if not more, of pastors who are now stuck, have been burnt, and have a hard time supporting this denom.

Because our grant was cut, we were forced to begin using our TOT to pay our bills. We had to make that decision because of the broken promise by the COG. I felt the right thing to do was to notify HQ about our decision. We report the right numbers, still. I receive a return letter telling me to honor my commitment to the COG. What???? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

In the past couple of weeks, I have personally spoken to other pastors, one who was also on the video at the General Assembly, who have said they have not seen anything close to the promised amounts. These are men who have moved their families, left their securities, and acted upon a calling and a promise. I just can't do church this way anymore.

As a result, I have submitted my credentials and our elders voted unanimously to withdraw from the COG. We do not leave in anger or resentment....but I am disappointed. As an act of integrity, we will be paying back the grant, although it was money given not loaned, to the National Church Planting Office.

Again, this denom runs rich in my family.....but I just can't stay anymore. We are moving on and moving forward. I pray the COG can explode with growth....but it never willl as long as pastors are still hurting. Mend the wounds.....take care of your sheep (local pastors).

God's blessings to all.
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Last edited by Jamie Noel on 5/10/07 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Good for you Jamie youngleader
I'm proud of you. Too many people are guilted into staying where they will be limited by the system. I too am finding out in a completely different situation that it's not worth the hassle.
God bless.
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Post Memory03
l pray for nothing but God's best for you and your folks Jamie...
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Post eagle1
Jamie,

I am praying for you and the Journey church.

May God's best be with you all....
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Post Travis Johnson
Jamie,

I'm praying for you guys. Keep going after it in a big way. You better know that you have many friends, one of which is writing this note. Talk to you soon.

Trav
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5/10/07 7:26 pm


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Post Darrell Garrett
Jamie, I sent you an email from this account dawgar8@gmail.com

I thought you might be like me and not open some that you don't know.

Praying for you dude and believing God for great things.
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5/10/07 7:35 pm


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Post Difficult to believe... spartanfan
I find it difficult to believe that you have the rich heritage - family and friends, relationships, and integrity you try to portray and then can't get the church to honor a real commitment to you when you have done everything you were supposed to also. That just doesn't add up. There are two sides to every story and then usually the truth is somewhere in the middle. Before anyone jumps down my throat for not swallowing this presentation "hook, line and sinker" let me point out that I just said I find it difficult to believe. The reason I find it difficult to believe is because I've been in the CoG for several decades and have never had a general or state official renege on any promise. They are batting 1000 with me. That's why I find it difficult to believe and a little voice inside says "There's more to the story than just someone who did everything right and was cut off." Why didn't these family members who were state officials or had 40 years of ministry step up to the plate and get it done? Where are your friends? You mean you did everything you ever said or insinuated and were cut off? I just said I find it difficult to believe. If someone is faithful and truthful it would seem that all would be done to keep them aboard. Couldn't the state step in, or a pastor friend of a large church adopt you as a satellite? Couldn't you find 10 sponsors to send you $100 a month? With all of the family, friends, rich heritage, impeccable track record and such - you were just left hanging? That is not my experience at all. A lot of times people use donated funds from the denomination to get a start and then after they're up and going they cut loose, usually blaming the denomination for continuing their welfare money. I'm not saying that happened here, but there are two sides. We help people get going and then after they use us to get a good start they don't send tithe of tithe or missions and that kills the relationship. Usually if someone is doing everything they are supposed to then others go overboard to keep them aboard. That's why I said "I find this hard to believe". Don't crucify me here for finding it hard to believe - you would too if you didn't know him personally. It's not consistent with everything else I've ever known or experienced. All of my experiences are positive. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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Post Re: Difficult to believe... Telecaster
spartanfan wrote:
I find it difficult to believe that you have the rich heritage - family and friends, relationships, and integrity you try to portray and then can't get the church to honor a real commitment to you when you have done everything you were supposed to also. That just doesn't add up. There are two sides to every story and then usually the truth is somewhere in the middle. Before anyone jumps down my throat for not swallowing this presentation "hook, line and sinker" let me point out that I just said I find it difficult to believe. The reason I find it difficult to believe is because I've been in the CoG for several decades and have never had a general or state official renege on any promise. They are batting 1000 with me. That's why I find it difficult to believe and a little voice inside says "There's more to the story than just someone who did everything right and was cut off." Why didn't these family members who were state officials or had 40 years of ministry step up to the plate and get it done? Where are your friends? You mean you did everything you ever said or insinuated and were cut off? I just said I find it difficult to believe. If someone is faithful and truthful it would seem that all would be done to keep them aboard. Couldn't the state step in, or a pastor friend of a large church adopt you as a satellite? Couldn't you find 10 sponsors to send you $100 a month? With all of the family, friends, rich heritage, impeccable track record and such - you were just left hanging? That is not my experience at all. A lot of times people use donated funds from the denomination to get a start and then after they're up and going they cut loose, usually blaming the denomination for continuing their welfare money. I'm not saying that happened here, but there are two sides. We help people get going and then after they use us to get a good start they don't send tithe of tithe or missions and that kills the relationship. Usually if someone is doing everything they are supposed to then others go overboard to keep them aboard. That's why I said "I find this hard to believe". Don't crucify me here for finding it hard to believe - you would too if you didn't know him personally. It's not consistent with everything else I've ever known or experienced. All of my experiences are positive.


I'm with you spartan. It doesn't make sense to me either. Also, I don't understand how a church busting over 300 still needs the same financial assistance a small church plant struggling would. Maybe their was a clause in the promise that the funds continued as long as the church stayed in "plant" status. I would say over 300 is far from it.
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Post Jim Morrison
I am sorry to hear this. I don't know you, but do know Chuck. I feel for you. I understand what the last two guys have said, that there are 2 sides to every story and I'm sure the COG Officials would have a different take.
However I do not find it hard to believe. I have not found a bastion of integrity and truthfulness. In fact I don't think honesty is valued that much. In fact many in the COG talk in a way so as never to be pinned down on anything. So in fact perhaps in their mind Jamie was not lied to. His mistake might have been not deciphering the code that was spoken to him, in other words he took it at face value - I have found that to be a big mistake, sorry, very sorry to say.
Once again the reality is, the COG has lost another fine Pastor and young leader. How many will we watch leave before we really figure out a serious change is needed in the way we do business. Honestly, I don't think it will be figured out, because if they have not by now, they won't anytime soon, and then it will be to late.

God be with you, hope you keep posting Jamie. God help you and the COG, seriously, help us.
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5/11/07 7:48 am


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Post Influential family sheepdogandy
is no help when dealing with a state overser.

It did not help us in 1989 and it seems it still doesn't.

I'm glad Spartanfan has a good experience with C/G government.

However, the day isn't over yet.
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5/11/07 8:36 am


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Post spartanfan said' Neal
"The reason I find it difficult to believe is because I've been in the CoG for several decades and have never had a general or state official renege on any promise. "

You are one of a very few! I have been directly lied to by state & gen officials! Promised money that never came! Turn-around church, sound familiar? Confused
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5/11/07 9:20 am


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Post UNCbluebleeder
As long the CoG continues to operate in the "musical chairs" of state/national leadership, things will not change. The same people are either kept in position or put in another position who have no business being there. I mean no disrespect to these men, but they have inferred power to themselves with little to no regard for the local ministers and congregations. Until fresh leadership breaks through the glass ceiling of the upper levels, I'm afraid it will be business as usual. IMHO.
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Post reply to Noel Brent
I am so sorry for your experience with the cog. I hate that our denom did not see the value of what you are doing and extend more help. Church planting is the future of this movement (or any)... there is no doubt.

I just wanted you to know that Sarah and I love what you're doing and believe in you and will stay in touch with you.

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Post Jamie, I love you, but... FloridaForever
I think there is a very instructive sentence in your post:

Quote:
I started The Journey Church over two years ago with no intention of being in the COG. But a scholarship was offered and we decided that maybe we should be a part and try to offer change.


If you are all so COG, then why would you START a church with no intention of being in the COG. That is, this is apparently BEFORE there were any issues with integrity, etc.

Now, I love ya, man, but it sounds to me like you didn't want in to begin with, then got an offer you couldn't refuse, and then, later, deciding you wanted out again, began looking for an out.

If you loved and respected the COG as much as you let on, I don't think you'd have had NO INTENTION of being in the Church of God with your church. There surely were some issues to begin with...and now they have arisen again and you are leaving.

Nothing wrong with that. You shouldn't serve in a denomination if you have too many issues with is. At the same time, I GUARANTEE that the COG has another story to tell in this matter (of course, they'll never tell it; they'll just let you run them down and that will be that).

You shouldn't have said anything. Now that you have, you have to be accountable also.
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5/11/07 10:28 am


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Post Here we go again famousflavius
UNCbluebleeder is on target. Will people wake up this time or will they have another helping. Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
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Post Re: Jamie, I love you, but... Jamie Noel
FloridaForever wrote:
I think there is a very instructive sentence in your post:

Quote:
I started The Journey Church over two years ago with no intention of being in the COG. But a scholarship was offered and we decided that maybe we should be a part and try to offer change.


If you are all so COG, then why would you START a church with no intention of being in the COG. That is, this is apparently BEFORE there were any issues with integrity, etc.

Now, I love ya, man, but it sounds to me like you didn't want in to begin with, then got an offer you couldn't refuse, and then, later, deciding you wanted out again, began looking for an out.

If you loved and respected the COG as much as you let on, I don't think you'd have had NO INTENTION of being in the Church of God with your church. There surely were some issues to begin with...and now they have arisen again and you are leaving.

Nothing wrong with that. You shouldn't serve in a denomination if you have too many issues with is. At the same time, I GUARANTEE that the COG has another story to tell in this matter (of course, they'll never tell it; they'll just let you run them down and that will be that).

You shouldn't have said anything. Now that you have, you have to be accountable also.


Allow me to clarify even more then. I had no intention because I felt the COG could not embrace the style of ministry we do....which has been much debate on this board for months. But they came after me....I did not call them.

They ensured me that the COG wanted change...they embraced this new style of church planting and wanted to support it. So, we decided to give it a try.

I guess my turning point was when we were featured at the GA and then the night speaker gets us and land blasts our type of church to be followed by everyone's approval. I was very disappointed that night. Even the director of the National Church Planting Office could see what happened. Why bring us there? WHy show the video?

Like I said, no hard feelings. We will move on and be just fine and so will the COG.
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Post COGOP integrity issues broncofan
I don't have experience with the National HQ level at the COG, but I can relate a couple issues that I am aware at the COGOP (over 20 years ago).

A former Tomlinson College President (now deceased) refused to honor the promise of a job to a College instructor. The guy had quit his job, showed up at work and was told he wasn't needed. (first day of work). Now, I must say I wasn't aware of this firsthand, and only heard of it from other people. Therefore, that could be wrong.

Later, this same President reneged on a promotion and pay raise for myself. Later, he gave the position (more work), but no pay raise. His excuse, I hadn't been there as long as other people of comparable pay. At a later time, he tried to force me to sign a tax document that I knew was not correct (the amounts were not large, but out of principal, I didn't think I should sign something on behalf of the College, and by extension, the Church, for something I knew was wrong, regardless of the amount). I refused to sign it and he signed it in my place. Frankly, I think the reason I wasn't fired was because he knew of my family connections and didn't want to risk it. My father was highly thought of by Brother Tomlinson, and I suspect this guy knew it.

I do want to clarify that I don't believe for a minute that M.A. Tomlinson had anything to do with this decision. I had immense respect for his integrity even when I doubted his leadership ability. This President said that the Board agreed with his decision on turning down the promotion. I do not believe the Board would have EVER approved of a broken promise. If for no other reason, than my former pastor was a member of the Board at that time, and I have complete confidence in his integrity to never reneged on a promise. Frankly, I believe the reason I wasn't fired when I refused to obey his "order" was because he also knew he had lied to me about the Board's approval of my pay raise and didn't want to risk me bringing up the issue with them so his lie would be discovered.

Funny thing, one time he told me I was "too good for Tomlinson College" and that I should be at a large University or in Business. He was probably hoping I would quit because I wasn't one of his yes men as I doubted his sincerity in the backhanded compliment. I got the last laugh as I did survive his Presidency.

Therefore, I've seen outright lies and broken promises by General Officials of the COGOP and it would be incrediably naive to assume it never happens in the COG either. It is a sad commentary, but unfortunately true in some cases. I believe Jamie on this matter.
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5/11/07 11:46 am


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Post Can I speak truth? spartanfan
Let's see, "I need money because my 300 people give an average of $8.50 each per week". Unless you are in a welfare project - you've got a problem of not being able to communicate the blessings of giving in an effective manner. It's been said that "If God really has you - He'll have you checkbook and all." Teach your people, 300 people should translate out to $10,000 to $15,000 per week. But some even at that can't afford to pay the 15% because they need staff and facilities. We sent right at $9000 to state and general last month. I could have a couple of extra staff members for that. Am I complaining? No. I hope I can send off $10,000 next month. I'd like to be like Loran and send in $150,000. If I had 300 people and they were giving an average of $8.50 per week, I think I'd teach on the blessings of giving for a month or two and equip those saints to finance the work of God's Kingdom on earth instead of expecting the pastors of churches averaging 80 in attendance to keep on supporting me. I'm not being mean, just honest. Someone needs to care enough about you as a young minister to instruct you as to how to correct your apparent "Lordship issue" with the families of your church. I will ask you to reconsider leaving, apologize to your church for fostering a welfare mentality - and reunite with the church that invested in you and your family all of your life. You are leaving over "money"? You say integrity issues - but where's the integrity of a congregation that gives an average of $8.50 per week when you have some probably giving $50 or even over $100? That means a lot of your people give nothing - you say they're new and haven't developed giving habits. I say how long does it take to teach sincere people the blessings of giving? A couple of years should be more than enough time. I'm not being mean, just honest. Own up to your own failure as the leader, reunite, and let's go on building His Kingdom together. If you don't correct this now, you'll always have a "Lordship issue" with your people in regard to finances. Sorry if this comes across in a bad - negative way. But I am telling you what you need to hear, I'm not supporting you right or wrong like many of your friends would. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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5/11/07 11:59 am


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Post UNCbluebleeder
Yeah, see Jamie, it's all your fault that people don't give money.

GIVE ME A BREAK. What an arrogant statement! And I'm sure that ALL of everyone else's congregation tithe accordingly so as to judge another minister.
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Post Gimme a break! spartanfan
I was only trying to be honest and help the boy. A church of 300 where the average contribution (tithes, missions, building fund and all) equals $8.50 per person. You don't see a problem there? Either leadership is not teaching stewardship or he is and the people are not responding to his teaching. I was trying to help and not just patronize him and I get ripped. What does the term "leader" mean anyways? The members follow as the pastor leads. Read Bogg's statement on how he did it. Sounds like leadership to me. I don't know Jamie - never met him. I'll bet he's a great guy, a real Christian man. I wouldn't judge him, I'm just a church consultant with some direction to help him. So don't judge me. I am just trying to offer real help, not useless sympathy. Jamie, get back in and teach your people accountability. You'll be better off in the long run. IMHO! Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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5/11/07 1:43 pm


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