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Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally?
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Post Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally TheoloJohn
Especially in light of the fact that the supposed pastor in question had been lying to the people (and quite possibly to himself) every time he got up in the pulpit for over a year, no, I would not be able to have faith that such a man met the standard of 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1; that is, blameless and having "self-control."

As far as the typical question asked so often in discussions like this, "Who hasn't fallen morally in some way or another?", I would not want a habitual liar, thief, cheat, idolator (Paul says covetousness is idolatry), etc., as a pastor, either, as all of those willful sins are completely against GOD's standard for bishops as set down in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

Peter denied the Lord three times before he ever was a pastor Shepherd in the NT church. Even when he was in the wrong and Paul had to rebuke him later in his ministry, Peter displayed humility, and repented of his ethnic prejudice against the Gentiles. While his prejudice was inexcusable, he did not willingly, knowingly persist in something he knew was a blatant violation of the law of God (sin).

Mercy, grace, and forgiveness are available for any who sin, but that's simply a basic salvation issue, not a question of basic character qualifications requisite for leaders in God's church (for which, see 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1).
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2/22/06 12:27 am


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Post Absolutely SkyPilot
As long as there has been a program of reconciliation (probably 1-3 years). I can have just as much respect for a man or woman who has failed/sinned, repented, asked forgiveness and been restored in a Biblical manner.

In fact they may make a better pastor than many of the self-righteous who cannot accept the faults of their members.
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2/22/06 12:28 pm


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Post Re: Absolutely TheoloJohn
SkyPilot wrote:
As long as there has been a program of reconciliation (probably 1-3 years). I can have just as much respect for a man or woman who has failed/sinned, repented, asked forgiveness and been restored in a Biblical manner.

In fact they may make a better pastor than many of the self-righteous who cannot accept the faults of their members.


Nevertheless, the New Testament standard for a bishop is that he be blameless. Restored to salvation and some other form of ministry, sure, but to be placed back in a position where he will be very easily able to prey on women again, that would be the height of folly.

As far as "self-righteous" attitudes are concerned, it appears that the Bible is the one with the "self-righteous" attitude here. And egregious, willful violations of ministerial ethics (not to mention the law of God) are not mere "faults." A fault is when a guy has trouble remembering people's names or when he is unintentionally rude to someone.
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Post If being blameless in the sight of man... SkyPilot
is the standard, then who could stand in the pulpit. Every person who stands in the pulpit has committed sin. All who stand in the pulpit are forgiven people. Does it matter that the sin occurred before or after the initial act of salvation or calling.
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2/22/06 12:37 pm


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Post Re: If being blameless in the sight of man... TheoloJohn
SkyPilot wrote:
is the standard, then who could stand in the pulpit. Every person who stands in the pulpit has committed sin. All who stand in the pulpit are forgiven people. Does it matter that the sin occurred before or after the initial act of salvation or calling.


Hey, I didn't write it, Paul did. Apparently he didn't think being considered blameless (above reproach) was an impossible standard.

A bishop should be a man of proven character, proven stability and maturity in Christ. "Not a novice," so that eliminates the false dilemma you pose between sins committed before vs. after conversion.
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Post Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally Way Word Worship
Pastor Gary wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Would "YOU" want a pastor...


How do any of us really know we DON'T have a pastor like that. For me, a man who has been the recipient of great mercy and grace, good enough for Jesus = good enough for me.[/b]

You sir, have been with Jesus.
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2/22/06 12:53 pm


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Post Under the right circumstances, I would have such a pastor Yo Dude
That is, it's not enough for a "fallen" pastor (whatever that might entail) to be restored simply because he has political pull, or is a cash cow for the church, or because he plays golf with the overseer.

No.

BUT...if that preacher has been restored because of sincere and deep godly sorrow, has learned a profoundly valuable life lesson for himself and others, has been humble and contrite toward all, has accepted all the blame due to him, and has made being right with GOD his priority, THAT MAN could be a WONDERFUL PASTOR...and I would be honored to serve under him.

You might phrase the question thusly: How many of you would allow King David to be your King?
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2/22/06 4:05 pm


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Post Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally Its In The Bible
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
I didnt wanna hijack Rough's thread bout churches acceptin fellers who fell morally, but was curious about the average Acts poster.

Would "YOU" want a pastor who you knowed had fell morally, committed adultery for a year before he was caught, an brought shame on his family, church, the ministry and Jesus?


One of the better pastors I've had fell morally at one point in time and left the ministry. God has restored him and his family, and has been able to use what was a devestating event in his life to reach others.
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2/22/06 4:12 pm


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Post Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally Way Word Worship
Its In The Bible wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
I didnt wanna hijack Rough's thread bout churches acceptin fellers who fell morally, but was curious about the average Acts poster.

Would "YOU" want a pastor who you knowed had fell morally, committed adultery for a year before he was caught, an brought shame on his family, church, the ministry and Jesus?


One of the better pastors I've had fell morally at one point in time and left the ministry. God has restored him and his family, and has been able to use what was a devestating event in his life to reach others.

You know ...it makes you wonder how God shall find pastors with enough empathy to minister to morally depraved people if a church cannot restore it ministry.
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2/22/06 4:23 pm


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Post Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally Brenda
First off, a pastor is human.
He combats the same enemy that we all do.
I'd say, he's probably more attacked by Satan then the average Christian. Because if Satan can take him down, he effects the whole church in one way or another, family members, friends, acquaintances. You might say, their a public servant. And it puts Christianity in a dim light when the world finds out.
The pastor not only needs to be watchfull and be aware of Satan trying to get a foot hold into his ministry.. but the laity should be praying for him everyday.

But I think God can restore unto him his salvation just like anyone else.
I do think there should be a trying period just like there was for Paul.
After he has proved himself, then the ministry should be restored back to him.

I walked into a church almost 8 months ago. Wonderfull pastor, wonderfull teacher. Love him with a godly love. What his past is? I don't know.. I just know how God uses him today. I see the humbleness in him. I see his love for his Lord.

I guess what I'm trying to say. He was new to me, I had to learn the man.. I had to learn through seeing his walk before me, that he is a man of God. (He could of had a sordid past, for all I know.. but I know the man of today).
Isn't that what God does.. puts our sins into the sea of forgetfullness.. makes a new creation out of us. All things become new.

The callings of God are without repentance.
Let God use the man that HE has put this calling on.
For this man cannot repent over the calling he has, so let the Lord use him by him using this calling God's given him or placed on him.
In order for this man/woman to get to heaven, he has to use it.
Because he can't repent over not using it.
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Post Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally notwanghere
I can't imagine being effective if the congregation was aware of a previous moral failure. I have followed 2 Pastors who were found guilty of moral failures. In both places it placed me under a suspicious eye. Anytime I was in the office there were literally those who wondered what I was up to. Visitation, forget it! I never visited woman alone, but in spite of that there were those who wondered why I was visiting certain people.

The violation of moral integrity complicates the ministry of Pastoring. It places an undue burdan on the Pastor who has been morally upright.

It can probably be said that the new Church doesn't need to know, but I really believe that violates the concept of being an open book. Besides the former Church knows, and it only serves to add suspicion.
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2/22/06 4:38 pm


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Post Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally drrodgers2002
I don't post much here as I was fairly well censored last time I did but...

No I would not want such a pastor.

1 Timothy 3:2-7

"2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap."

Seems to me that this guy would be disqualified. However, the question was not do I want to see this guy in heaven. IMHO this is one issue the COG has some issues with. There are some pastors out there that would fail the Timothy test and instead of helping them get there lives in order they get shuffled around to the next church. Nothing wrong with forgiving, helping, ministering to, and loving these guys but come on folks...grow a spine. JMHO though. :]

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Post Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally TheoloJohn
Brenda wrote:
First off, a pastor is human.


Like Jesse Duplantis said last night (and I'm not a big fan of Jesse generally, but what he said last night was absolutely right on), "You're wife don't believe that excuse, and you think GOD does?"

Quote:
The callings of God are without repentance.


In context, that particular verse is only referring to Israel still being God's chosen people. But in any case, that is beside the point. No one here (least of all me) is saying that a pastor who commits adultery is forever barred from any kind of ministry at all, just that he has disqualified himself from the high calling of bishop.

1 Cor. 9:27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. NASB
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2/23/06 3:30 pm


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Post the answer to the original question is... jonbrown999
NO

without any debate...



jb- still needs grace though
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Post Re: Would "YOU" want a pastor who had fell morally whocansatisfy
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
I didnt wanna hijack Rough's thread bout churches acceptin fellers who fell morally, but was curious about the average Acts poster.

Would "YOU" want a pastor who you knowed had fell morally, committed adultery for a year before he was caught, an brought shame on his family, church, the ministry and Jesus?



Would you want a member?
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2/24/06 12:21 am


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Post David as my king? Porpoise Driven Neptune
Yo Dude wrote:
How many of you would allow King David to be your King?


Not me. I only recognize one King & He is absolutely blameless & without sin.
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2/24/06 7:31 am


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Post Re: Amen Rabbi Porpoise Driven Neptune
wardlinepastor wrote:
It is a shame when a brother fails God- for sure

But what about GRACE/MERCY/FORGIVENESS/RESTORATION ?


There's a difference between grace and foolishness.

I once received a man who used to be a pedophile into church membership. I was severely criticized for doing so, but I believe in grace, mercy, forgiveness & restoration. However, there was no way I would ever allow him to be in a situation in the church involving contact with children. That would be foolishnes.

Similarly, I won't appoint a restored thief to be church treasurer. That would be foolishness. He may be forgiven & restored, but there are plenty of other avenues of serving the Lord that don't involve handling money.

As pastors we are in a position of trust. If I am to minister effectively to the whole church (men & women) then I need to command the trust of my wife & the trust of the congregation. I cannot see how that trust can exist after a pastor has already fallen into sexual immorality.
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2/24/06 7:40 am


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Post It sounds as if some sins have more weight roughridercog
Okay what's the heaviest to the lightest load of sin you can bear and be forgiven of.


Let's face it, there are men out there who have fallen into sin, repented, been restored by God and are pastoring successfully today.
But they were never caught.

The difference is would you want a man who had been caught and restored.

What's the difference?
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2/24/06 8:26 am


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Post Better Question Would Be: BV COG
Would you want to pastor if you morally fell?
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Post A Pastor who has failed morally! Dorcas
Most of you agree that a pastor can repent and be restored. But I personally know a pastor who had at least three affairs, and denied all of them, yet he still wants to preach. From my observations, if a man falls for this kind of thing once, it will probably happen again. Look at J. Swaggart and others. Even after he supposed to have repented and cried on national TV, he was caught again. I also personally, know a minister who had a 14 year affair with his secretary and he finally told his wife and they divorced. Very sad, the family is torn apart.

Sorry, but I have a lot of doubts in this kind of situation. If it was a one time slip, (I mean 1 time period, not for more than I day) maybe..... but to have an affair over a period of time.... no way do I trust him.

God is love, but He would not let David build the temple because of his sin.
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