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Is the Trinity Scriptural?
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Post I suppose... spartanfan
I suppose I could "provide proof" but I have established my reputation here as being 100% honest and to ask the gentleman who was given that flimsy response to a serious inquiry resulting in him ultimately resigning a very high position in a oneness denomination to write and have notarized a statement for this discussion board would be carrying it a bit far don't you think? Trust me - it's true. Without a doubt, when told by one of his leading ministers that, "I'm having some serious problems because when I open my Bible and read I keep seeing the Trinity all through the Bible" the LEADER of America's second largest oneness denomination responded saying, "Now Brother ________________, we've been riding this horse for a long time and you don't change horses in the middle of a stream". That's so sad it's almost funny. In my opinion the oneness movement continues because of two things - fear and tradition. They say or insinuate that if you leave their churches you might not make it into Heaven and they withdraw from the general population and perpetuate their out of date and unScriptural subculture. Are they saved? In my opinion yes, even though the oneness pastor down the block from me has said the Trinitarian pentecostals are not saved. Are they ignorant (used in the dictionary sense of the word, not the connotation)? Yes. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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5/3/07 8:54 am


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Post spartanfan The strict Constructionis
I'm not doubting your honesty at all.

I just know that in this debate between oneness and trinitarian circles, there are allot of "urban legends" floating around that turn out to be false. They usually have to do with someone converting from one camp to another.

All I can say is, I gave up my credentials with the AG because when I looked in my Bible, all I saw was Oneness.

It's a shame I have to switch denominations over something like this. It's a shame that ignorant folk in the OP ranks don't truly understand just how saved their trinitarian counterparts truly are.

It's also a shame that when a AG or GOG minister has a strong conviction about invoking the Name of Jesus when he baptizes, he has to fear losing his credentials. And don't tell me it doesn't happen, because it does.

You mentioned Anthony Mangum. He and I have had several conversations. The Louisiana AG State office is in the same city where Mangum pastors (Alexandria, La.). He told me that several of the AG state officers sneak to his church on Sunday night because, as they put it, "This is the way WE used to be. You guys are not ashamed to be Pentecostal". THAT my friend is why the OP ranks not only stay afloat, but are GROWING worldwide.

I'd much rather be in a church that carries things too far on outward holiness than I would be in a church that has embraced "Chrismania".


Last edited by The strict Constructionis on 5/3/07 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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5/3/07 2:31 pm


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Post Strict...a question FloridaForever
I too enjoy the "old-fashioned Pentecost" that I see in Oneness circles. Are there Oneness churches that are still that way, but don't make outward dress a big deal? Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
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5/3/07 3:02 pm


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Post World of Pentecost..................... The strict Constructionis
...................in Austin, Texas. Also known as "The Promised land Church".

Pastored by Kenneth Phillips.

http://www.wop.com/
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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5/3/07 3:50 pm


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Post Re: Strict...a question Scooter
FloridaForever wrote:
I too enjoy the "old-fashioned Pentecost" that I see in Oneness circles. Are there Oneness churches that are still that way, but don't make outward dress a big deal?


Response: That's what I can't stand about that type church. We have a close friend who was going through a real tough time who came back to her UPC church after being gone awhile and all they wanted to do was chide her about her bangs being cut.

Sure they can't shout the popcorn off the ceiling but man what a nest off tongue wagging clothes line pharisees.

That type of "Apostolic" church spirals downward into some nutty stuff.

These are the type that tell you what type off colors,material, to wear.

Britches is of the devil. Cool

What women are supposed to do while menstruating.

How much flesh infants can or can not show.

I'm glad some have broken out of the grip of that type of spirit.
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5/3/07 4:10 pm


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Post You are wrong, Scooter The strict Constructionis
Oh sure, those types of churches exist in the OP ranks. But the one I recommended to FlaFvr is NOT one of them.

Your statement was "THOSE TYPES OF CHURCHES".

So if a church is an old-fashioned revival church, then to you it's automatically legalistic.

I'll tell you what. I'll take the errors of the OP's over the errors of the COG any day of the week. (long haired men with earrings on the platform, women in mini-skirts, so-called "mature Christians" wearing shorts to church) No, none of those things are salvation issues. But they are just as much error as are the legalistic teachings found in many OP churches.

Quote:
What women are supposed to do while menstruating.

How much flesh infants can or can not show.


These are NOT teachings of the UPC. This is the FIRST I've ever heard of this and I've been in the OP movement since 1992.
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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5/3/07 4:28 pm


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Post Re: You are wrong, Scooter Dave Dorsey
The strict Constructionis wrote:
(long haired men with earrings on the platform, women in mini-skirts, so-called "mature Christians" wearing shorts to church) No, none of those things are salvation issues. But they are just as much error as are the legalistic teachings found in many OP churches.

...how is that error? can you show me some scripture? Certainly women in mini skirts is neither modest nor proper in the house of God, but as for shorts and long hair... what? Confused
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5/3/07 8:03 pm


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Post tripsd The strict Constructionis
Any pastor worth his salt will disciple his people that they should dress modestly in the assembly. Showing half or more of your legs in church is not proper.

Paul makes it clear in I Cor. 11 that NATURE (not culture) teaches us that it is wrong for men to have long hair. And don't give me the line that in some cultures hair down to the buttocks on a man would not be considered long.

Men with earrings obviously have not matured in Christ to the point where they've been liberated from following the fads of pop culture.

None of these things are "sin", but they are a few of many benchmarks of maturity in Christ. Just growing in God will take care of allot of them without a bunch of "rules".

They are error in that they are evidence of a lackadaisical approach to leadership in the modern pentecostal church. They are evidence that when the COG abandoned their outward holiness teachings, they let the pendulum swing too far the other way. Your movement has traded legalism for liberalism in many cases.
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5/3/07 8:51 pm


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Post Re: tripsd Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:
.
Paul makes it clear in I Cor. 11 that NATURE (not culture) teaches us that it is wrong for men to have long hair. And don't give me the line that in some cultures hair down to the buttocks on a man would not be considered long.
".


Response: Laughing Laughing God forbid if Samson was to lead worship! Laughing Laughing

Do you USE Paul to tell your women to shut up too? Laughing

Making the NT letters into the New Letter Law is legalism.
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5/3/07 8:56 pm


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Post You're demonstrating, Scooter............. The strict Constructionis
.................just how far the other way the COG has gone (or pentecost in general).

You literally laugh at me for taking Paul at his word. What would YOU say to Paul if you had been there when he wrote that? Better yet, if you were a pastor at Corinth at the time, would you tell your congregation to ignore that part of what Paul wrote?

A brother can have long hair and be a better christian, with more love than a brother with short hair. Hair length doesn't make you spiritual. But a maturing christian with a sensitive heart will at some point or other be confronted with Paul's words in I Cor. 11 and will gladly obey the word of God, as will a woman ( that is, if they are be challenged to christian maturity from the pulpit.)
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5/3/07 9:24 pm


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Post Re: tripsd Dave Dorsey
The strict Constructionis wrote:
Men with earrings obviously have not matured in Christ to the point where they've been liberated from following the fads of pop culture.

That's an amazingly judgmental and condemning statement. Who on earth are you to say why one has an ear ring or what motivation he's following?
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5/3/07 9:26 pm


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Post Re: You're demonstrating, Scooter............. Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:
.................just how far the other way the COG has gone (or pentecost in general).

You literally laugh at me for taking Paul at his word. What would YOU say to Paul if you had been there when he wrote that? Better yet, if you were a pastor at Corinth at the time, would you tell your congregation to ignore that part of what Paul wrote?

A brother can have long hair and be a better christian, with more love than a brother with short hair. Hair length doesn't make you spiritual. But a maturing christian with a sensitive heart will at some point or other be confronted with Paul's words in I Cor. 11 and will gladly obey the word of God, as will a woman ( that is, if they are be challenged to christian maturity from the pulpit.)


Response: Do you get the women to pin napkins on their head as well?

Are you married brother? If so don't you think Paul knew what he was talking about?

Paul never intended his letters to be used in the manner which many legalistic churches use them.
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5/3/07 9:49 pm


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Post Legalistic? The strict Constructionis
I guess you can say any admonition of the Bible is "legalistic", especially the ones our flesh doesn't want to obey. Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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5/4/07 4:50 am


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Post Re: Legalistic? Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:
I guess you can say any admonition of the Bible is "legalistic", especially the ones our flesh doesn't want to obey.


Response: No just the Oneness ones. Laughing

FYI sorry no long hair or mini-skirts for me bub, so try harder. Cool

Fact- God does not look on the outward appearance but on the heart.

Are there people who take that type of liberty to extreme sure but to their own master they will stand or fall.

I agree that in many circles the pendulum has went left, but our focus must be a sanctified interior. The sanctified are not so from the outside in but from the inside out, which may or may not include traditional hobby horses.
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5/4/07 7:59 am


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Post one trinity beevow07
I believe that God is so complex that no one person will ever "figure" him out. This has been an argument before we came along and if Jesus tarries his coming and we all die, people will still be arguing over this subject. I don't care how many books you read or how many papers you write. We are only scratching the surface. Our tiny minds can't handle all of Him. God's complexity is the very reason no one will ever really be able to explain it all. Even the oneness/ trinity battle.

I don't understand it, but that's why I live by faith. God's ways are past finding out. I believe that God is Father of all, Jesus is his Son, the Holy Spirit is the Comforter and the 3 are inseparable. I don't know how it all works and neither does anyone else. So please stop all of the bickering. Feel the love Very Happy
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5/4/07 8:36 am


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Post scooter The strict Constructionis
Quote:
I agree that in many circles the pendulum has went left, but our focus must be a sanctified interior. The sanctified are not so from the outside in but from the inside out,


I believe that's what I said.

I don't want any saint of God feeling that any outward holiness standard "makes" them holy.

Outward holiness is a direct result of inward holiness. We can't get the cart before the horse.

However, God's people do need to be reminded from time to time on the outward aspects of holiness. Then it's up to them and God.
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5/4/07 9:00 am


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Post Re: scooter Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:

However, God's people do need to be reminded from time to time on the outward aspects of holiness. Then it's up to them and God.


Response: I don't know if that's really the way you relay what you practice. It seems that you would have trouble within yourself worshiping with a long haired hippie style Christian P/W leader.

You said "then its up to them and God" but your judgment of the outward seems hint at but "I" know "I'm" better.
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5/4/07 9:08 am


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Post Tripsd The strict Constructionis
Quote:
That's an amazingly judgmental and condemning statement. Who on earth are you to say why one has an ear ring or what motivation he's following?


HOW have I judged or condemned anyone?

My statement would have been applauded not long ago in the COG.

Not long ago, you would not have seen a man who had been Spirit-filled for any length of time wearing an earring. Not because someone told him not to, but because he would have noticed that his godly, mature elders didn't wear them, so they would have been challenged by EXAMPLE instead of legalism.

I remember a time when a rough looking man with long hair and earrings would radically change his appearance after God got a hold on him.

Now, why they are encouraged to look worldly so they can "relate to people".

I remember Mylon LaFever saying that his pastor had a "word from God" for him to "grow his hair long' and "put the earrings back in" so he could "relate to young people".

Again ,the real issue here is not earrings or hair length. The issue is MATURITY IN CHRIST and ONE of MANY benchmarks of MATURITY will be shedding such worldliness. You'll probably lose your desire to dress that way.

We love to quote the scripture that says "God doesn't look at the outward appearance. He looks at the heart".

True, but that works both ways. When you realize how little God really cares about outward appearance, then you'll stop trying to draw attention to your outward man with tattoos ,earrings, flashy dress, wild hair styles, and such.
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5/4/07 9:15 am


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Post Re: Tripsd Dave Dorsey
The strict Constructionis wrote:
Again ,the real issue here is not earrings or hair length. The issue is MATURITY IN CHRIST and ONE of MANY benchmarks of MATURITY will be shedding such worldliness. You'll probably lose your desire to dress that way.

I was waiting for this. I neither dress like that nor have any desire to -- but thanks for making presumptions about my life.

Quote:
True, but that works both ways. When you realize how little God really cares about outward appearance, then you'll stop trying to draw attention to your outward man with tattoos ,earrings, flashy dress, wild hair styles, and such.

I don't even know what to say. Can people not have a tattoo, or earring, or hairstyle simply because they want to? Do they have to be trying to fit in, or following the world's example?

You're being judgmental because you're looking at the outward man and making presumptions about the heart -- not based on any scripture whatsoever, but based on your own traditions and convictions.
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5/4/07 10:10 am


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Post Tripsd The strict Constructionis
Quote:
I was waiting for this. I neither dress like that nor have any desire to -- but thanks for making presumptions about my life.


Trips, I was not referring to YOU at all. Haven't you ever used the word "you" in the context of "people in general". Geesh.

perhaps the word "one" would be better, especially when someone is trying to catch you in your words to paint you as legalistic.

People can dress however they want, however, 'all things are permissible , but all things are not expedient".
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5/4/07 12:10 pm


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