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Is the Trinity Scriptural?
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Post Re: Poimen... Scooter
FloridaForever wrote:


Jesus is a member of the divine family, but is not God.

.


Response: There you go again.

John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

Not that you can't twist it to make it fit.

You're right you and your son are not one Jesus and His father ARE.

As the scripture says.
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4/27/07 1:16 pm


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Post There YOU go again,Scooter The strict Constructionis
When we Oneness people quote this verse....

(John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. )...........
..........you Trinitarians tell us,

Quote:
"Oh, that doesn't mean they are LITERALLY one, that just means they are 'one' in the same sense a husband and wife are one"


But now , when someone is suggesting that Jesus is not God, then you flip-flop and start trying to sound Oneness.

You guys can't have it both ways.
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4/27/07 3:17 pm


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Post Again? spartanfan
Do we have to keep doing this every few months? I have used so many Scriptural proofs of the Trinity so many times and have silenced many at different times because the Trinity is revealed Genesis - Revelation. For instance the most sacred verse in all Judaism, The Shema:

Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One (Deut. 4:6)

Note the word "echad" which means "a compound one". If you take three sticks and wrap them with twine to hold them together to make a tool, the three together make "a compound one". The Hebrew word "yachid" means "an absolute one". Echad is used in the Shema to define the Triune God. There are so many places in the Bible where you see the Three in One that you have to be deliberately blind or brainwashed by a lesser teacher or organization to miss it, in my opinion. The Muslims deny the Trinity and the Deity of Christ in the Koran. Those who deny the Father and the Son are of the spirit of antichrist. Too much time has to be spent arguing with the smaller and less prominent pentecostals over the Trinity. God is "echad" - a "compound one". What - are they now going to say that the translators should have used "yachid" but God who gave us His word was not wise enough to preserve it for us? He is "echad", not "yachid". But it's like arguing with a Muslim or cultist - after much Biblical proof they continue to regurgitate the junk they've been fed. So here comes the rebuttal....(yawn)
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4/27/07 4:03 pm


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Post Get real,Spartanfan The strict Constructionis
You said,


Quote:
I have used so many Scriptural proofs of the Trinity so many times and have SILENCED many at different times


Get Real ! WHO have YOU silenced.

You're the blowhard that comes out swinging and then disappears as fast as you came. Like the time BlessedinMs proved to you that there were indeed HUNDREDS of Messianic Jewish believers who were Oneness. You NEVER responded. We waited patiently. But you did not want to play any more.

And don't you realize that it's only Trinitarians such as yourself that are arrogant enough to think that you know better how to interpret Hebrew than the Jews do?

Do you think Moses had a Trinity in mind when he chose to use the word ECHAD? Give me a break.

Quote:
Those who deny the Father and the Son are of the spirit of antichrist
.

Read the rest of the verse, please.

Quote:
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son HAS THE FATHER ALSO.



How is it that when you have the Son, then you automatically have the Father? Because they are one and the same! Jesus is GOD manifest in flesh, NOT "God the Son" manifest in flesh.

I'm sorry to be hard Spartanfan, but I'm addressing you EXACTLY how you want to be addressed. By the very caustic way you address others, you are saying that's how YOU want to be addressed.

I figure if you're big enough to dish it out, then you ought to be big enough to take it, too.
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4/27/07 4:39 pm


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Post Spartanfan...You Be Fibbing??? FloridaForever
I guarantee you that you haven't silenced a single knowledgeable person. OK, you may have frustrated them with a refusal to see the plain truth, but you didn't do it with your logic--because there ain't any!

You might intimidate some know-nothing into submission, but I'll be happy to debate you on it...and I'll be you don't silence me.

Do you even realize how ludicrous it is to act like the Hebrew indicates a Triune God??? I mean, are you telling me that for all those centuries the Jews never figured out that God was actually MULTIPLE PERSONS?

HOGWASH!

We are reading into it what we will, so that we can preserve our "blessed Trinity."

Look, I have no problem with people believing Oneness OR Trinity. It's not a heaven or hell issue, so long as you accept Jesus as the Son of God, etc.

But if we're going to get serious in arguing about it, then we have to play fair. And if through the CENTURIES the Jews did NOT ONE TIME understand God to be comprised of MULTIPLE PERSONS, then how dare we come prancing in to "inform" them otherwise, based on some booklet we read here or there.

BULL!

Two good questions to ask yourself:

1) Is God a SINGLE PERSON?

2) Does Jesus have a God?

The Bible indicates that the answer is yes to both of these questions.
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4/27/07 4:51 pm


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Post lol spartanfan
His list "paled" compared to the list of Trinitarian Messianic Jews. In fact, the list of "oneness" evangelicals "pales" compared to the list of Trinitarians. List every Trinitarian of renown on one side and every oneness on the other and let's see where the most respected men in Christianity come from. It's a big step for a Jew to become a believer in Christ, and often they become Trinitarians later - as they become even more enlightened. The Church of God is Trinitarian and the purpose of this board is to give Church of God members and ministers a place to interact, according to the originator of this board. I guess we just get tired of you guys every now and then bringing this back up. No matter how much we show you, you keep beating the same old dead horse. If I were to tell you that the tzit-zith on the corner of the typical Jewish garment had 8 chords with 5 double knots, and the windings in the 4 spaces between the 5 knots in Hebrew gramatria spelled out the name of God in the first three spaces and the word "one" in the fourth, you couldn't even see the Trinity in that. Three for the name of God and then one. The three make one. But all of these things do not move any of you from your position. The bread holder used in the Passover Sedar is three-pouched, and the matza used to represent the Body of Christ is the 2nd one, the middle one. You see nothing there. You see nothing anywhere except what you have been taught by a bunch of inferior theologians who ride their hobby-horse while the real world passes them by. Why can't you guys just quit the oneness stuff and leave it off of this Trinitarian board. Okay - here's my first name, Billy Graham. Give me a more respected oneness name now........lol Zola Levitt, Arnold Fructenbaum, The Jews for Jesus - they dwarf your list of oneness believers. Paul Crouch - do you have a oneness with a ministry as far reaching? Blah blah blah blah blah, we can go back and forth all night and you come out on the short end because The Assemblies of God, The Church of God in Christ, Church of God - the most respected pentecostals are Trinitarian. You have your little petty arguments handed down through your inferior ministers and theologians and denominations and they are ridiculously ignorant. So please give us a break, find a oneness board for your dribble and quit bringing this garbage up every few months. Pat Robertson, John Hagee, Rod Parsley, Paula White.........who you got to counter with? Scripture don't convince you, examples don't move you - you have to be deprogrammed in order to be convinced of the truth. Don't apologize for the tone of your post - I can take it as well as dish it out. My dish is just more educated and successful. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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4/27/07 5:15 pm


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Post I almost forgot... spartanfan
Why does the Shema say "echad" (a compound one) when "yachid" (an absolute one) was available? Couldn't God inspire properly? Why would He use the wrong word - according to you oneness guys. Is God echad or yachid? A compound one or and absolute one - and if not echad why couldn't he present and preserve His revelation of Himself properly? Answer that one first, or take a hike. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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4/27/07 5:19 pm


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Post Spartanfan... FloridaForever
Quote:
Why does the Shema say "echad" (a compound one) when "yachid" (an absolute one) was available? Couldn't God inspire properly? Why would He use the wrong word - according to you oneness guys. Is God echad or yachid? A compound one or and absolute one - and if not echad why couldn't he present and preserve His revelation of Himself properly? Answer that one first, or take a hike.


Have you ever noticed that the word "God" has THREE letters? One word, three letters! Powerful...powerful.

The issue is that you are defining "compound one" as meaning MULTIPLE PERSONS? What if it means compound attributes? What if it means multi-faceted?

YOU (and those who taught you) have decided that compound one MUST mean multiple persons. Not so.

Here's an even better question: If God wanted us to know that He was a triune God, all He had to do was tell us straight. If He wants us to know that, then why "hide" like the Bible Code? He could have told us flat out.

Maybe He didn't because that's not the truth about Him?

I do know He said a lot of thing about being ONE. I also know that He is referenced as a HE and not a THEY.

Like I said, this is not a heaven or hell issue. But if we're going to discuss it, let's do it intelligently.

The truth of doctrine is not based on how many people believe it, but on whether the scriptures support it.

So, I trust I have answered your question.
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4/27/07 5:33 pm


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Post AMEN, FlaFvr! The strict Constructionis
Quote:
The truth of doctrine is not based on how many people believe it, but on whether the scriptures support it.


Spartanfan always bases his trinity stance more on who else believes it rather than what the word says.

However, he and I do agree that Jesus is Jehovah. I STRONGLY caution anyone from straying from that truth.
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4/27/07 5:53 pm


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Post no spartanfan
The Shema question is not answered. The Hebrew dictionary is where the "sticks bound together" are one illustration comes from, and it is in opposition to "yachid", as pointed out by the Jews for Jesus. The oneness view would be supported by "yachid" even if the yachid was multi-faceted or had many qualities or attributes. It would still be an absolute one and not several bound together as one. As always you lose. Why would God use echad when yachid would have made it so simple for you to understand if that is what He meant? I never mentioned the Bible Code, by the way. By using your silly illustration you did not address "the name of God - one" in the hem of the garment or the Afikomen of the Sedar representing Christ, the bread from the second pouch. Let alone the obvious - 3 at His baptism, Ananias lying to the Holy Ghost (God). I actually heard a oneness preacher say Jesus was "throwing His voice" at His baptism to say "This is my beloved Son", for the benefit of those present. When asked why the Trinity is obvious but ignored, the leader of one major oneness denomination responded "we've been riding this horse for a long time and you don't change horses in the middle of a stream". That was the response by the leader of the second largest oneness denomination in America. How Scriptural is that answer? My point is that we keep doing this on here and it's a waste of time. I use the names of famous Trinitarians because "spartanfan" carries no weight. "spartanfan" carries about as much weight as the ones he argues with, so to tip the scales I use Jack Hayford, G. E. Patterson, Adrian Rodgers, James Kennedy, Lloyd John Oglivie, Perry Stone, G. Dennis McGuire, Jentzen Franklin, Paul L. Walker.....you know, guys you have no comeback for and no list of respected theologians or ministers to compare to. That's just a ploy to stack it my way and end the argument since you won't use Scripture. What about the leader of the second largest oneness denomination in America responding to their ignoring the obvious Scriptural references to the Trinity by saying "you don't change horses in the middle of a stream"? Does that not sum it all up? So, I have nothing left to say because the Scriptures are ignored and there are no oneness theologians qualified to debate the great Trinitarians I can quote. My advice - I'd try to change in the middle of the stream before I would keep riding the wrong horse. The gators rule and God is a Trinity! Spartanfan speaks truth and is not afraid to admit when he's wrong - if it can be proven. Ask Kyle, he'll tell you! Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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4/27/07 6:26 pm


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Post Re: There YOU go again,Scooter Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:
When we Oneness people quote this verse....

(John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. )...........
..........you Trinitarians tell us,

Quote:
"Oh, that doesn't mean they are LITERALLY one, that just means they are 'one' in the same sense a husband and wife are one"


But now , when someone is suggesting that Jesus is not God, then you flip-flop and start trying to sound Oneness.

You guys can't have it both ways.


Response: You too??????

I haven't addressed any oneness heresy here yet but if the shoe fits.

I don't know how blind one would have to be to miss the word and.

I and [my] Father are one.

Now there's two in one shall we go for three.... Laughing Rolling Eyes
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4/27/07 8:35 pm


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Post Scooter, you flip-flop continues The strict Constructionis
Now against me you're choosing to emphasize the word AND and against FlaFvr you're choosing to emphasize the word ONE.

But YOU are the one who is so blind that you cannot see what Christ is trying to say in John 12:44-45,


Quote:
“He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me."


If you believe on Jesus, you are NOT really believing on HIM, but on the ONE who sent Him.
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4/27/07 9:04 pm


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Post Re: Scooter, you flip-flop continues Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:
Now against me you're choosing to emphasize the word AND and against FlaFvr you're choosing to emphasize the word ONE.

But YOU are the one who is so blind that you cannot see what Christ is trying to say in John 12:44-45,


Quote:
“He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me."


If you believe on Jesus, you are NOT really believing on HIM, but on the ONE who sent Him.


Response: I didn't figure you'd just say, okay.

Why don't you lay out what you simply believe?

I mean at least FF came out as far to say Jesus wasn't God... Is that what you think too? Or is it the Holy Ghost that you dish off?

I don't really understand why that I can't believe in one God who has chosen to reveal Himself in a three fold nature.

I don't guess that's oneish enough. Rolling Eyes
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4/27/07 9:34 pm


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Post Re: Scooter, you flip-flop continues Scooter
The strict Constructionis wrote:
Now against me you're choosing to emphasize the word AND and against FlaFvr you're choosing to emphasize the word ONE.
.


Response: You know why? Because with my theology you pay attention to every word rather than just choosing what fits your dogma.
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4/27/07 9:38 pm


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Post again spartanfan
The Shema question is not answered. The Hebrew dictionary is where the "sticks bound together" are one illustration comes from, and it is in opposition to "yachid", as pointed out by the Jews for Jesus. The oneness view would be supported by "yachid" even if the yachid was multi-faceted or had many qualities or attributes. It would still be an absolute one and not several bound together as one. As always you lose. Why would God use echad when yachid would have made it so simple for you to understand if that is what He meant? I never mentioned the Bible Code, by the way. By using your silly illustration you did not address "the name of God - one" in the hem of the garment or the Afikomen of the Sedar representing Christ, the bread from the second pouch. Let alone the obvious - 3 at His baptism, Ananias lying to the Holy Ghost (God). I actually heard a oneness preacher say Jesus was "throwing His voice" at His baptism to say "This is my beloved Son", for the benefit of those present. When asked why the Trinity is obvious but ignored, the leader of one major oneness denomination responded "we've been riding this horse for a long time and you don't change horses in the middle of a stream". That was the response by the leader of the second largest oneness denomination in America. How Scriptural is that answer? My point is that we keep doing this on here and it's a waste of time. I use the names of famous Trinitarians because "spartanfan" carries no weight. "spartanfan" carries about as much weight as the ones he argues with, so to tip the scales I use Jack Hayford, G. E. Patterson, Adrian Rodgers, James Kennedy, Lloyd John Oglivie, Perry Stone, G. Dennis McGuire, Jentzen Franklin, Paul L. Walker.....you know, guys you have no comeback for and no list of respected theologians or ministers to compare to. That's just a ploy to stack it my way and end the argument since you won't use Scripture. What about the leader of the second largest oneness denomination in America responding to their ignoring the obvious Scriptural references to the Trinity by saying "you don't change horses in the middle of a stream"? Does that not sum it all up? So, I have nothing left to say because the Scriptures are ignored and there are no oneness theologians qualified to debate the great Trinitarians I can quote. My advice - I'd try to change in the middle of the stream before I would keep riding the wrong horse. The gators rule and God is a Trinity! Spartanfan speaks truth and is not afraid to admit when he's wrong - if it can be proven. Ask Kyle, he'll tell you! Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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4/27/07 10:23 pm


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Post Spartanfan... FloridaForever
I want you to just stop for a moment and think of just how far out you are....

Think about it, you are now "reading into" clothing and food the TRINITY!

Well, what happens when we talk of the TEN Commandments?
The SEVEN spirits of God?
The SEVEN days of Creation?
The EIGHT Souls in the Ark?
The TWO components of communion (bread and wine)?
The clear scriptures that state that God is ONE, ONE, ONE, ONE, ONE, ONE?

If you want to believe such things, go ahead. I prefer the SCRIPTURES.

Further, just to be clear, I AM NOT ONENESS. At all. I believe it is about as wrong as Oneness...except that it does get it right that God is ONE PERSON.

Yes, I have addressed such things as Ananias lying to the Holy Ghost (lying to God). I have said, time and again, that Jesus and the Holy Ghost ARE God, in that they issue from Him. My only point is that they are not the PERSON of God.

They are God in the same sense that my son is me. He has my blood, my characteristics, DNA, authority...but he is NOT ME.

Let's leave it there. You have every right to believe as you wish, and I don't think we're going to change one another.
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4/28/07 8:32 pm


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Post It's such a hoot! spartanfan
When asked why the Trinity is obvious but ignored, the leader of one major oneness denomination responded "we've been riding this horse for a long time and you don't change horses in the middle of a stream". That was the response by the leader of the second largest oneness denomination in America. How Scriptural is that answer? I mean come on, that is the Leader of one of the largest oneness denominations in the world and that's all he could come up with? No Scripture - no argument against the Trinity appearing all through the Bible. Just, "We've been riding this horse for a long time." What a hoot. No wonder the Trinitarians have the respected educators, theologians, world-reaching media ministers and leading pastors in America. The oneness people come across as a bunch of back-woods uneducated goofs. The number one man in the number two oneness denomination in America says, "We've been riding this horse a long time." In my opinion the oneness people try to scare people into staying in their churches by saying or insinuating that unless you've been baptized in the name of Jesus you might not make it to Heaven. I have seen it over and over again where I live. I've helped backslidden oneness people find their way back to Jesus and some were so brainwashed by the doctrines they grew up with that they felt they had to go back to the oneness church they grew up in to make it all the way back to Jesus! I'm glad I could help them get saved and if they just liked the old church better I wouldn't care as much but knowing that fear (by their own admission) drove them back makes me hate the bondage of the oneness churches even more. I guess if you've been riding a horse all of your life and you're told if you get off you might not make it in to Heaven you would be afraid to get off. In my opinion it's bondage. Fear is used to hold them - and God has not given the spirit of fear. So I don't agree to disagree. I see no room for the oneness fear antics in true Christianity. Get off of the horse - it ain't going anywhere. Come on over to the winning side! Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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4/28/07 10:05 pm


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Post Spartanfan... FloridaForever
Just so you know--you ain't talkin' to me.

Because I'm not ONENESS.

As for "all the respected leaders," well, let's see...we've had about 2000 years of Trinity-this, trinity-that...oh, and get burned at the stake or disfellowshiped if you disagree or argue about it.

Yep, I'd say that's about right.

I don't know if you know this...but 150 years ago, NOT A SINGLE RESPECTED CHRISTIAN LEADER WAS PENTECOSTAL!

Not one.

So you see that that argument carries no weight. The ONLY THING that matters is what the scriptures say.

And ALL we can safely say is that God is One. Jesus is the Son of God, and so forth.

In any case, I thank you for being a part of this discussion.
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4/28/07 11:31 pm


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Post Gimme a break spartanfan
That's why I threw in names like Adrian Rodgers, James Kennedy, Lloyd John Oglivie, Billy Graham, etc. My point being simply that those who are considered the greatest theologians ever and the most powerful and anointed evangelists ever were (are) Trinitarians. The oneness stuff (the dominant ones today) is an offshoot of pentecostalism. It is pentecostalism gone ignorant. And them using fear to hold their people in their denomination is what I abhor. Threatening them that if they leave and go to a Trinitarian church they might not make it to Heaven. Have you ever noticed how we open our churches to the oneness evangelists and musicians, but generally speaking they keep their doors closed to Trinitarian evangelists? Joel Hemphill, one of the leading oneness pastors who became a great songwriter/evangelist with a powerful healing and deliverance doctrine recently renounced the oneness doctrine and wrote a book saying "We have been giving the Father's glory to the Son not understanding they are two different people." I'm glad his enlightening process has begun but I'll be he is soon to be anathema with the oneness churches. When arguing over whether or not Trinidadians will make it to Heaven in one oneness church's state convention, Anthony Mangum stood up and said, "Brethren, I don't think God gave the Trinitarians the Holy Ghost so they can walk around in Hell speaking in tongues." If they were more like him - they would almost be tolerable. But then, he is one of their biggest and most successful. He has more understanding than most. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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4/29/07 8:12 am


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Post hey moderators spartanfan
in my post above "Trinidadians" should be "Trinitarians" even though Trinidadians if funnier! Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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4/30/07 2:50 pm


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