Actscelerate.com Forum Index Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
@actscelerate Twitter  @actscelerate Facebook  @actscelerate Google+ 

Is the Trinity Scriptural?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 
   Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Hot Discussions Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Message Author
Post Re: One Thing Oneness Has Right... Dave Dorsey
Poimen wrote:
Just wanted to tell ya TripsD that your example actually quite precisely expresses the notion of Oneness theology -- NOT Trinitarian Theology. See, actually, George is ONE and always remains one person even with three offices, roles, or manifestations. Just an FYI.

Really, that's interesting -- I'll have to disagree with that particular interpretation of it, but it's interesting to know there's another way of looking at it.
Now 67% friendlier!
Posts: 12980
4/26/07 3:35 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Bro Albert Batts sheepdogandy
put it this way.

Look at the apple.

Core
Meat
Skin

One apple.

If he were here today. (Bro Batts)

He would have a field day on ACTS.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7125
4/26/07 3:36 pm


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Reply with quote
Post Re: Scooter...please Scooter
FloridaForever wrote:
It's obvious you are not skilled at this sort of argumentation.


Response: Rolling Eyes Laughing Hey I'm not the one one here spouting of at the mouth about the divine nature of God as if I knew better than anyone while at the same time saying I' not sure how that works about the Holy Spirit.

It really highlights for everyone that the thing you like to do is spout off and hear yourself regardless if you've thought it through.

FloridaForever wrote:
You ASSUME that if one believes in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, they MUST be trinitarian.

Well, Oneness folks would claim they believe in all three, yet would go jihad on you if you called them trinitarian.


Response: When your vocabulary expands to include, Jesus was not God literally speaking, it's time to shut up.


FloridaForever wrote:
Please, find someone else to trouble.


Response: No that's okay you'll do. Cool
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1741
4/26/07 4:07 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Scooter...time to take your pills... FloridaForever
Look, please grow up.

You have offered no scripture (and I wouldn't expect YOU to). Instead, from go, you have just berated me for my claim.

No real argument. Just criticism.

Expected from the likes of you. But foolish, nonetheless.

For this thread, I am going to have to ignore you from now on, as it is clear you really don't have a clue when it comes to the Trinity.
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
4/26/07 4:49 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Sheepdogandy...let's explore that example... FloridaForever
The apple example does not take into account the fact that we consider God Himself to be a SINGLE PERSON, and not a multiplicity of persons.

For instance, I am body, soul, and spirit (so we understand), but I am ONE PERSON. That is comparable to the apple illustration. BUT...

But if we take that approach with God--that is, God is the soul, Jesus is the body, the Spirit is the spirit of ONE PERSON--then we are arguing for Oneness. For that is pretty much what they say--God is ONE PERSON, but has three manifestations, or three "parts" to Him.

Well, we don't want that, lest Rafael call us cultists (thoguht this would be false, of course).

Actually, what Trinitarinism is arguing is that God is not a SINGLE PERSON at all--contray to the plain understanding of what the scripture is saying--but is THREE PERSONS.

That means that the very word "God" no longer means a person, but perhaps the name of a family, or even a company name.

We think of God a single person for a VERY GOOD REASON: We refer to Him as HE and NOT THEM or THEY.

If it were indeed a God-family, we'd say, "For God so loved the world that THEY gave THEIR only begotten Son...."

But clearly, the scriptures understand and refer to God in the singular.

God is NOT a THEM/THEIR...He is a HE (singular).
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
4/26/07 5:04 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Thelojohn... TheoloJohn
FloridaForever wrote:
You raise some good points....

I would counter, though, with a few things:

1) The Bible clearly portrays God to be a PERSON. Not persons...person. And all of our "redefining" of "God" as some plural entity fall short of scripture, I believe.


Unless we are willing to say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not distinct persons, we must admit that the Bible does in fact affirm "God in three persons." Are you saying that Jesus or the Holy Spirit are not in fact persons?


Quote:
2) I do not believe it is clear at all that the NT classifies Jesus AS GOD. Certainly divine...but also something else. For instance, "There is one mediator BETWEEN God and man, the man Christ Jesus." That clearly seems to indicate that Jesus is not God in the most literal sense, for He stands between God and man.


The very definition of the term "mediator," refers to a go-between. But that doesn't necessarily mean Jesus is not fully God (see John 1:1 for instance), any more than an ambassador to another country can't at the same time be a citizen of the country he represents.

Quote:
Can you provide any scripture that would cause problems for my position? Namely, that Jesus is God in the same sort of sense that my clone is me...and is NOT God in the same sort of sense that my clone, while me in all sorts of way, is NOT me? Otherwise, I just feel much more comfortable on all parts believing it my way.


John 1:1, 1:14, Col. 2:9 just to name a few off the top of my head.

One of the strongest is:

Heb. 1:8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is£ forever and ever,
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your£ kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

I'm sorry I don't have more time to devote to this issue right now, but perhaps I can steal away for a few minutes later on this evening. If you have a topical reference such as the Thompson Chain Reference or a Dake's Bible, or just about any other study Bible, you should have no problem looking up all the clear NT references to Christ's Deity.

God bless,

John
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
4/26/07 5:14 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post FloridaForever
Quote:
Unless we are willing to say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not distinct persons, we must admit that the Bible does in fact affirm "God in three persons." Are you saying that Jesus or the Holy Spirit are not in fact persons?


I do not follow your logic. Certainly Jesus and the Holy Spirit are persons. But why does it then follow that there must therefore be a "God in three persons"? I don't see why in the world holding that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are persons necessitates there being a trinity. Doesn't logically follow to me.


Quote:
The very definition of the term "mediator," refers to a go-between. But that doesn't necessarily mean Jesus is not fully God (see John 1:1 for instance), any more than an ambassador to another country can't at the same time be a citizen of the country he represents.


I'm not sure this is a strong analogy, for our question is deeper than citizenship. Very simply, if Jesus is the SON of God, then it is clear from the very language that He is not, Himself, God...but is rather the SON of God.

Now that doesn't diminsh His authority, for the Son carries the Father's authority. But the Son of God, it would stand to reason, is not God Himself (at least the person of God).


Quote:
Heb. 1:8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is£ forever and ever,
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your£ kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”


Actually, I think this scripture is defeating your purpose. For while it points out that Jesus is God...it also points out that Jesus HAS a God!

This flows perfectly with my position, for I hold that Jesus is indeed God in a very real sense, but that He is not the PERSON of God.

You'll also recall Jesus saying that He must ascend to "your God and my God."

Very simply, Jesus has a God. That makes no sense at all in a Trinitarian worldview. In that worldview, Jesus does not have a God, but IS God (Who is comprised of persons).

But this lets us know that while Jesus is considered God in a one very literal sense...He is also NOT God in a very literal sense.

Which is why I believe we have to come up with a position that handles this "was and with" about Jesus. For the Bible indicates that He is God and at the same time never relents in making it clear that in some way Jesus is not God (my Father is greater than I, etc.).
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
4/26/07 5:45 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Scooter...time to take your pills... Scooter
FloridaForever wrote:
Look, please grow up.

You have offered no scripture (and I wouldn't expect YOU to). Instead, from go, you have just berated me for my claim.

No real argument. Just criticism.

Expected from the likes of you. But foolish, nonetheless.

For this thread, I am going to have to ignore you from now on, as it is clear you really don't have a clue when it comes to the Trinity.


Response: Likes of me, foolish, grow up. Laughing Call it how ever your christ will allow. If you knew scripture you would know I have offered.

I'm not the one having to edit my post to cover ignorant statements like Jesus wasn't God and when I lay my head tonight I'll take ease in knowing the Holy Ghost as a distinct personality of God.

May you find rest in your great struggle against the truth.
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1741
4/26/07 5:53 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post TheoloJohn
FF,

Just quickly, no, the Bible does not ever say that Jesus is anything less than fully God. You are inferring that idea (incorrectly) from the idea of His Sonship.

He is either God or He is not. Hebrews does not say, "Therefore O demi-God, thy God hath anointed thee..."

Your whole argument seems to be that because Jesus is referred to as the Son of God, that therefore He cannot be fully God. But John 1:1 and the Hebrews passage I cited alone refute that very assumption, which ignores the core point of trinitarian doctrine: I.e., the fact that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in essence (consubstantially).

If you disagree on the Deity of Christ, I'm sorry, bro, but you cannot be a true Christian. I don't say that to be unkind or mean, but just to express a fact. The Christian faith has always affirmed the Deity of Christ.

Really gotta run...
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006


Last edited by TheoloJohn on 4/29/07 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
4/26/07 5:53 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post just a few as if it will help Scooter
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:



Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1741
4/26/07 6:10 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Poimen
FF,

I'm afraid you misunderstood my initial post.

However, I must preface this by saying that though I am trying to be understanding of your position and questions that I am also trying to be careful not to give credence to an error. Having said that ...

When I said earlier that you were arguing for tri-theism I also said that you did not realize that is what you were doing. I still believe that to be the case. I could amend that to say you are arguing for bi-theism and/or tri-theism.

Let me explain -- you are working with the construct that God alone is the ultimate God yet Jesus, His Son, is also God in as much as He is divine. You seem to imply if the Spirit be a person He is the same. From that premise You are stating that God is a distinctly separate person and being from Jesus. Yet you affirm that Jesus is similarly divine.

Divine, deity, God, & God-head are all interchangeable term.

Thus your construct and premise, of consequence, leads to this conclusion: The Father alone is truly God. Jesus is divine and thus God in His own right. But they are not together God, but merely separately both God. That says then there are two Gods. That doesn't even begin to address the order or rank among the Gods -- God & Jesus. Not does it take into account the validity of the person and divinity of the Spirit. Accept that and the only conclusion is to say that all three exist and are each divine, but separately so -- to the degree that there is three separate divine beings. That is there are three Gods.

I wanted to share a lot more but time does not permit for now. Dinner calls -- taking the family out tonight. Maybe I'll catch you on the flip side.

Very Happy
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher

Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
4/26/07 6:59 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Reply with quote
Post Re: Broncofan...Indeed, it is not a heaven or hell issue. broncofan
FloridaForever wrote:
The problem is when people like (if I remember right) Rafael Martinez gets on here and calls Oneness a cult. That's just ignorant.

About the only difference between current Oneness folks and the Church of God of 40 years ago is the notion of the Trinity. Were we a cult back then? No. So to call a group a cult because they see the relation between God and Christ differently is just that arrogant, abrasive, and faulty reasoning that likes to act like if it doesn't line up with tradition, it is therefore unscriptural.

I think a better way to think is: "If it doesn't line up with scripture--whether it's tradition or not--it's wrong."

Some people like to act like they are heresy hunters when they call Oneness folks a cult. Guess some people need that to feel good about themselves.

I don't agree with Oneness doctrine, but if anyone tells you they heretics and do not know Jesus, well, that person is an ignoramus.


Thanks, I understand now. But, I do find it an interesting discussion, when my brain isn't hurting Smile

As a CPA, maybe I should discuss materiality, revenue recognition, post employment benefits, off balance sheet financing. Wouldn't that be exciting Smile

Seriously, I do enjoy the views on this. My simplistic view is I accept it on faith.
_________________
broncofan
Acts-celerater
Posts: 586
4/27/07 8:22 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Sheepdogandy...let's explore that example... Charlie Metz
FloridaForever wrote:
The apple example does not take into account the fact that we consider God Himself to be a SINGLE PERSON, and not a multiplicity of persons.

For instance, I am body, soul, and spirit (so we understand), but I am ONE PERSON. That is comparable to the apple illustration. BUT...

But if we take that approach with God--that is, God is the soul, Jesus is the body, the Spirit is the spirit of ONE PERSON--then we are arguing for Oneness. For that is pretty much what they say--God is ONE PERSON, but has three manifestations, or three "parts" to Him.

Well, we don't want that, lest Rafael call us cultists (thoguht this would be false, of course).

Actually, what Trinitarinism is arguing is that God is not a SINGLE PERSON at all--contray to the plain understanding of what the scripture is saying--but is THREE PERSONS.

That means that the very word "God" no longer means a person, but perhaps the name of a family, or even a company name.

We think of God a single person for a VERY GOOD REASON: We refer to Him as HE and NOT THEM or THEY.

If it were indeed a God-family, we'd say, "For God so loved the world that THEY gave THEIR only begotten Son...."

But clearly, the scriptures understand and refer to God in the singular.

God is NOT a THEM/THEIR...He is a HE (singular).


I find this line of debate interesting but disturbing. It did make me crack my Bible open to make sure what I ave read is what I actually read. Anyway...here you go FF...

KJV Gen 1:26 "Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...""

NKJV Gen 1:26 "Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness...""

NIV Gen 1:26 "Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness...""

NLT Gen 1:26 "Then God said, "Let US make people in OUR image, to be like OURSELVES...""

Now, it seems to me your argument rests on the plurality, or lack thereof, of the title God. Could it be that your issue is with language to language translation? Or, if the language to language translation is correct, then are you telling God He cannot say He is God in the singular English word, but then use plural nouns to describe Himself as a trinity?

just curious.
_________________
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matt. 7:13-14
Acts-celerater
Posts: 706
4/27/07 8:52 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post COGCharlie... FloridaForever
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I would respond, however, to the "let US make man in OUR image" statement as being utterly inconclusive regarding the plurality of God. In fact, I take it to mean something along the line of God referring to angels, other members of the heavenly host, or even Jesus (BY whom He created all things).

That is, for God to say that statement does not mean that God is plural anymore than if I were to say, "Let US cook dinner." It might very well be the case--and would obviously be the case--that I must be directing my statement to others.

Further, while we might even initially take the path that you offer, we quickly run into trouble, for very soon God is denoted as a HE--a single person. And so, we run back into singularity.

Again, thanks for the tone of your comments.
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
4/27/07 9:17 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post FloridaForever
Quote:
Just quickly, no, the Bible does not ever say that Jesus is anything less than fully God. You are inferring that idea (incorrectly) from the idea of His Sonship.

He is either God or He is not. Hebrews does not say, "Therefore O demi-God, thy God hath anointed thee..."

Your whole argument seems to be that because Jesus is referred to as the Son of God, that therefore He cannot be fully God. But John 1:1 and the Hebrews passage I cited alone refute that very assumption, which ignores the core point of trinitarian doctrine: I.e., the fact that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in essence (consubstantially).

If you disagree on the Deity of Christ, I'm sorry, bro, but you cannot be a true Christian. I don't say that to be unkind or mean, but just to express a fact. The Christian faith has always affirmed the Deity of Christ.

Really gotta run...


Thanks for the comments, Theolo. I would respond that, no, my entire argument is not based on Jesus being the SON of God. That is but a contributing point.

Let me ask you a question. Does God have a God?

Jesus does. It is borne out in at least two places in scripture: The verse in Hebrews that says, "and God, even YOUR God," and in the gospel where Jesus tells Mary that He must ascend to "your God and MY God."

Of course, then there is the utterance from the cross, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

Now, if God has a God, then you can perhaps bypass these issues. But in my mind, God does not have a God. That seems contradictory--like saying there is something greater than the greatest.

Please know that I DO NOT disagree about the deity of Christ. Jesus is the Son of God, all power is given to Him, nothing was made without Him, there is salvation in no other, etc.

My argument is based on, I suppose, what, exactly, we mean by the deity of Christ.

I have argued that Jesus IS God in the sense that He issues from God, has the precise DNA, if you will. That is, the "ingredients" in the Son of God are 100% God.

I have described Jesus as a clone of God (for lack of better wording). Further, the Father has given Him all authority, etc.

BUT...

BUT...

BUT Jesus is not God HIMSELF. He is the SON of God (or the CLONE of God, if that makes it more understandable).

If you were cloned, your clone could rightfully be said to BE you. For he would have your precise DNA. Further, because the DNA comes from you, it could even be said, in a sense, that your clone has existed just as long as you have. Thus, Jesus is not only rightfully considered to BE God, but is just as eternal as God. Why? Because in eternity past, assuming there was a time when Jesus was NOT yet a separate person from the Father, Jesus was still there "in the loins of His Father," so to speak.

Further, let us just suppose that by "God" we do indeed mean "The God Family." Well, let's explore that....

If your family is called "The Theolojohn Family," that is all good and well...but ONLY YOU are Thelojohn proper. The others may be you genetically, may be you in other ways, are absolutely part of the family, but YOU are Theolojohn proper.

That is, they can be called Theolojohn, be considered Theolojohn, etc., and to a degree is perfectly valid. But in another way, ONLY YOU are Theolojohn.

And that is really all I am trying to say about God.

He is a SINGLE PERSON.

He has a SON Who is just like Him...but is not Him.

He has a SPIRIT that also issues from Him (apparently)...but is not Him.

Yet, any and all of these can rightfully be called God at any time, for they are 100% God...

But yet, in another sense they are separate from God Himself. The are God, but they are not the PERSON of God.

I know that's a mindbender, but surely not nearly so mindbending as the Trinity.
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
4/27/07 9:35 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Poimen... FloridaForever
Quote:
Thus your construct and premise, of consequence, leads to this conclusion: The Father alone is truly God. Jesus is divine and thus God in His own right. But they are not together God, but merely separately both God. That says then there are two Gods. That doesn't even begin to address the order or rank among the Gods -- God & Jesus. Not does it take into account the validity of the person and divinity of the Spirit. Accept that and the only conclusion is to say that all three exist and are each divine, but separately so -- to the degree that there is three separate divine beings. That is there are three Gods.


Thank you for explaining. However, this is not what my intention is.

I am arguing that while Jesus can rightfully be called God (as He is at various points in scripture) due to the fact that He issues from God and is, in a sense, a clone of God, He is not, in fact, the PERSON of God.

Your clone IS you in a very real sense, and can even be referred to you in a very real sense. But it is NOT YOU in the most literal of senses.


Further, we know from our reading of scripture that God is a HE. Not a THEY. That is, God is a SINGLE PERSON.

And if that is the case, then we know that the Trinity is incorrect. Doesn't mean that Jesus is not divine in the most vivid of senses, doesn't mean that all power isn't given to Him, doesn't mean that only through Him comes salvation, etc. Just means that Jesus is not the PERSON of God.

So, I am not arguing (I trust) for tri-theism at all. But rather I am arguing for monotheism. I am insisting the, indeed, just as we have always said and understood, God is ONE...is a SINGLE PERSON.

As for Jesus and the Holy Spirit, they are fully divine, but they are not the PERSON of God, any more than my clone (or son) is ME. Has all my characteristics, my full authority, etc., but is not me.

Otherwise, Jesus would not have a God (as He obviously does in scripture).
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
4/27/07 9:42 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Poimen... Poimen
FloridaForever wrote:
Quote:
Thus your construct and premise, of consequence, leads to this conclusion: The Father alone is truly God. Jesus is divine and thus God in His own right. But they are not together God, but merely separately both God. That says then there are two Gods. That doesn't even begin to address the order or rank among the Gods -- God & Jesus. Not does it take into account the validity of the person and divinity of the Spirit. Accept that and the only conclusion is to say that all three exist and are each divine, but separately so -- to the degree that there is three separate divine beings. That is there are three Gods.


Thank you for explaining. However, this is not what my intention is.

I am arguing that while Jesus can rightfully be called God (as He is at various points in scripture) due to the fact that He issues from God and is, in a sense, a clone of God, He is not, in fact, the PERSON of God.

Your clone IS you in a very real sense, and can even be referred to you in a very real sense. But it is NOT YOU in the most literal of senses.


Further, we know from our reading of scripture that God is a HE. Not a THEY. That is, God is a SINGLE PERSON.

And if that is the case, then we know that the Trinity is incorrect. Doesn't mean that Jesus is not divine in the most vivid of senses, doesn't mean that all power isn't given to Him, doesn't mean that only through Him comes salvation, etc. Just means that Jesus is not the PERSON of God.

So, I am not arguing (I trust) for tri-theism at all. But rather I am arguing for monotheism. I am insisting the, indeed, just as we have always said and understood, God is ONE...is a SINGLE PERSON.

As for Jesus and the Holy Spirit, they are fully divine, but they are not the PERSON of God, any more than my clone (or son) is ME. Has all my characteristics, my full authority, etc., but is not me.

Otherwise, Jesus would not have a God (as He obviously does in scripture).


FF.

MY struggle, and seemingly yours, is that you keep admitting Christ is divine yet is not God. But, divine means God and God means divine. They are synonymous. No, Jesus is not the Father. But they are both divine, as you admit. Thus they are both God. Either they are somehow both divine and yet one God or there are two Gods, right?

Jesus does have a God, yes. Jesus - via his humanity, has a God. But Jesus via his divinity is God. It is a paradox, a mystery, a concept that for us is past fully finding out. Thus Paul says "Great is the mystery of godliness. God was manifest in the flesh." Yet it is revealed truth.
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher

Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
4/27/07 10:27 am


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Reply with quote
Post Poimen... FloridaForever
I guess I don't see the problem. My son is a member of my family, but is not me.

Jesus is a member of the divine family, but is not God.

We try to explain Jesus "having a God" by appealing to His humanity. But I think that is invalid.

Hebrews seems to bear it out when God calls Jesus God...and then says, "and God, even YOUR God."

I think the paradox that you mention is that Jesus is both God, and yet is not the PERSON of God.

It's just, to me, a simple understanding to say that if there is ONE GOD, we do not by that mean "A being comprised of three separate persons," and then in the next breath say, "God said that HE would...."

The trnity is a manmade construct that seeks to maintain monotheism while holding that there are three divine persons. It stumbles over scripture to do this, for no sound reasoning would cause us to say that Jesus is God, yet HAS a God (the Father).

That just doesn't fly.

My construct (while certainly manmade) better explains, I believe, how Jesus both is God...and is yet no the SINGLE PERSON of God.

In fact, maybe we ought to back away altogether and simply say:

"There is one God. Jesus Christ is the Son of God...and so on." That is, just let each person do as they will without being in danger of being a heretic on this issue.
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
4/27/07 11:09 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Poimen
Well, I'm not so sure about all of the possible implications in your statements...

BUT, in trying to identify with the motivation and spirirt of your post above, here is a quote form my website and forums "what we believe" section:


Quote:
The Godhead. There is one God, the Creator of all. God has always been and always will be. He is almighty, all knowing, everywhere at the same time, and He is absolutely perfect and infinite in every way. God is revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, (or, as some prefer to say, "Holy Spirit". We're good with that, too). There is some division among various believers and groups about how to properly understand or express the nature of God. Is God one person? Is God a trinity of persons? Is the Spirit of God really a person? We hold to a trinitarian view of God. It is obviously important to know and understand the truth of this matter since we will filter everything else we learn about God through it. But, more importantly is a proper understanding of the basic truth that God is, that He alone is God, and that God became a man – Jesus. The Bible tells us that the only way to have fellowship with the Father is through Jesus His Son and that if a man has fellowship with the Son of God then he has fellowship with the Father. If a man does not embrace the person and work of Christ then he does not have fellowship with the Father.

_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher

Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
4/27/07 11:17 am


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Reply with quote
Post Poimen...agreed FloridaForever
While I take issue with the trinitarian understanding of God, please know that I am very much "pro-Jesus."

I believe that Jesus is:

the Son of God
the Christ
the Messiah
is the Name above all names
that at His name every knee shall bow...confess
that there is salvation in no other
that He died for the sins of the whole earth
that He is eternal in both directions
that all power and authority has been given to Him in heaven and in earth

Very simply, I believe everything about Jesus that a trinitarian does...EXCEPT I defer to believe that Jesus is the very PERSON of God. He is God in the sense that He issues from God, and is comprised entirely of "God-matter," so to speak. But that God-matter came from the PERSON of God, and Jesus, while part of the divine trio (so to speak), is not the PERSON of God.

My son is the heir of all things. He will (one day) have all of my authority, power--everything. But He is not the person of me.

Jesus is the heir of all things. He has all power, authority, etc. But He is not the PERSON of God.

In any case, I thank you so much for your wonderful tone and attitude in our discussion. I am, as always, open to correction. But I do believe I may have somewhat of a point on this matter.

God bless.
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
4/27/07 11:41 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Hot Discussions Post new topic   Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 3 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Acts-celerate Terms of Use | Acts-celerate Policy
World News Network | Acts-celerate Chat
Contact the Administrator.


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Spelling by SpellingCow.