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Is the Trinity Scriptural?
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Post Scooter...please think FloridaForever
You chose to bold and enlarge words from my comments that threw it out of context. Had you included the next few words--"in the most literal sense"--you would have been acting intelligently.

Further, had you taken the time to read my comments, you might understand what I am trying to say.

But instead, all you can see is that I dare to challenge the Trinitarian position. Doesn't matter whether scripture supports it, apparently. To even question this tradition is just wrong. That's just foolishness.

As for John 1:1, that in NO WAY contradicts my position! In fact, it fully supports it. Why? Because it shows that Jesus both IS God ("was God") and is separate from God ("was WITH God"). And that is all that I have said. I simply claim that Jesus, because He issues from the Father, and is comprised of the same substance, IS God in that sense (in the sense that your clone IS you)...and yet, Jesus is not God in the sense that He is not the PERSON of God (just as your clone is not the same PERSON as you).

Very simply, I am working to find a doctrinal position that allows us to TRULY have ONE GOD (who is ONE PERSON)--which is the understanding that everyone from Moses on down had--and yet at the same time, ascribe deity/divinity to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. That is, to show that Jesus is indeed unique and above all...yet is not the person of God.

If you can't grasp that, then go ahead and throw your little unthinking bombs. Otherwise, try to find scriptures that contradict what I have said.
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4/26/07 9:17 am


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Post Scooter...face value FloridaForever
What I would change about our doctrine is this:

Instead of saying we believe in a triune God, I would simply say what the scripture clearly supports: We believe in One God, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

That's all. Why would we seek to go beyond the scripture?
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4/26/07 9:20 am


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Post Proud to be a CP... FloridaForever
Quote:
This is what happens when created men become educated beyond their intelligence.

Here's the crux of the matter - FF asks, "if there is no absolute proof, why do we insist upon it being part of our orthodoxy?"


When I say "absolute proof" here, I am not referring to LOGICAL proof, but to SCRIPTURAL proof. That is, I am saying that it is by no means clear cut in scripture that there is a trinity. Yes, we have some scriptures that indicate this or that, but it still fails to rise to the level of clear proof (so to speak).

Look, we have scriptural proof that Jesus is the Son of God. It is CLEAR in the scriptures that He is. But we have no such clear reading in scriptures that would cause us to arrive at the Trinitarian understanding of God.

Yes, the Father, Word and Spirit are one. But that doesn't clearly denote a trinity.

In fact, we even have to redefine "God" to hold the Trinitarian position. Before we find out that there is supposedly a trinity, the word "God" means a SINGLE PERSON. But once the notion of Trinity is introduced, we redefine "God" to mean something more akin to "the God Family."

That's just faulty.

Yes, we needed to show that Jesus was divine and eternal. But by arriving at the Trinity, we went far too far.
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4/26/07 9:28 am


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Post Spartanfan...You are Incorrect FloridaForever
Quote:
The Trinity is obvious all through the Bible. The Quran speaks against the Diety of Christ and the Trinity - which lets me know that Satan does not like those two Scriptural doctrines. They are of satan who deny the Father and the Son. Do you believe the Quran (no Trinity) or the Bible (Trinity)? Pick a side and run with them.


No, the Trinity is not only NOT obvious through the Bible, it is not even obvious in the NT.

No one is denying the Son or the Father. This is just the standard tomfoolery used to end all debate on the subject (and it needs to end for Trinitarians, because they know it is weak). But I am not affected by what I know is nothing but a simple debate tactic.

Do I believe the Quran (no Trinity) or the Bible (Trinity). Another FALSE (isn't Satan the father of lies) dichotomy. Neither the Bible nor the Quran are trinitarian. Rather it is our extrapolated doctrine that is trinitarian, not the scriptures.

The Quran is faithful to the understanding of God that was passed down from Abraham--there is ONE GOD...who is ONE PERSON.

Just like the Jews believe.

Just like the NT indicates.

The only difference is that the NT shows us that this ONE GOD has ONE SON ("only begotten"). For us to go beyond that and try to prove that God is now comprised of Father and Son (and Holy Ghost) is to go beyond the simplicity of scripture and try to make more of it that it should be.

Further, it creates great strife and debate, for anyone who stops where scripture stops is now at odds with "orthodoxy."

Doctrine must be based upon what is CLEAR in the scriptures, nothing more. If there is not a clear understanding in scripture as to the trinity, it should not be part of orthodoxy...and believing it or disbelieving it should not be cause for cries of heresy or otherwise.
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4/26/07 9:37 am


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Post One Thing Oneness Has Right... FloridaForever
Now, I don't believe Oneness is right at all about God being the Father, Son, AND Holy Ghost. That just does not fly scripturally--I mean, how does God sit beside Himself?

BUT...I will give the Oneness folks a point for at least realizing that the Bible is crystal clear that God is a SINGLE PERSON.

That is, they do hold that there is ONE God, Who is ONE PERSON. Yes, they go out of bounds after that, but at least they got that crucial point--the very core of monotheism--right.

Trinitarians try to argue that there is one God Who is THREE PERSONS. This immediately contradicts our most basic understanding of God, that He is a PERSON (and not persons, plural). But that won't stop the Trinitarians, no siree bob! Thinking that to back off of such an absurd rendering would be to become heretical, they press on, insisting that God is Trinity.

To say that God is a trinity is like saying, "George is Billy, Gene, and Ray." That immediately confuses our understanding of the word "George," which we have always understood to be the name of a single person. That is, you can SAY "George is Billy, Gene, and Ray," but it doesn't really make any sense in the English language.

Of course, then Trinitarians will say, "Well, it a great mystery that no one can understand." No one, that is, but the theologians who came up with it, apparently. THEY are somehow able to pierce the godly mystery and make sense of it and form doctrine from it. Those who question it, however, just need to blindly accept it, since it is--shhhh!--a mystery.

So, point awarded to Oneness for at least not forgetting that God is a PERSON.
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4/26/07 11:43 am


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Post Don't try to back out now. Scooter
So make up you mind, is it the deity of Christ which you question "literally" or is it the Holy Spirit that you sacrifice on your intellectual altar since you failed to mention Him in your latter post?

Don't you find that kind of convenient?

Tradition has zero to do with it.

The way God chooses to reveal himself in the Bible does. You can have the word trinity. That really doesn't matter but to say that God has chosen to reveal himself in anything less than that is simple heresy.
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4/26/07 11:48 am


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Post Scooter...find another thread FloridaForever
Because you obviously don't really know what is being discussed here.

I have CLEARLY stated that I believe Jesus is DIVINE. In fact, I have clearly stated that Jesus is God (in the sense I gave).

But obviously you don't care about that. You're just here to show your ignorance, apparently.

Bye.
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4/26/07 12:02 pm


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Post Re: Scooter...find another thread Scooter
FloridaForever wrote:
Because you obviously don't really know what is being discussed here.

I have CLEARLY stated that I believe Jesus is DIVINE. In fact, I have clearly stated that Jesus is God (in the sense I gave).

But obviously you don't care about that. You're just here to show your ignorance, apparently.

Bye.


Response: So we're down to you rejecting the Holy spirit as God.

Hello.
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4/26/07 12:19 pm


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Post Scooter... FloridaForever
I don't reject the Holy Spirit as God (in the same sense as Jesus, perhaps).

I am just making my point by using the Father/Son dichotomy.

YOU DIDN'T MENTION JESUS IN YOUR MOST RECENT POST!!!! DO YOU DENY JESUS? THE MUSLIMS DENY JESUS--ARE YOU A MUSLIM OR JUST DIRECTED BY SATAN?

Ignorance gone to seed.
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4/26/07 12:32 pm


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Post Re: Scooter... Scooter
FloridaForever wrote:
I don't reject the Holy Spirit as God (in the same sense as Jesus, perhaps).

I am just making my point by using the Father/Son dichotomy.

YOU DIDN'T MENTION JESUS IN YOUR MOST RECENT POST!!!! DO YOU DENY JESUS? THE MUSLIMS DENY JESUS--ARE YOU A MUSLIM OR JUST DIRECTED BY SATAN?

Ignorance gone to seed.


Response: So you realize that God the Father is God, You state you believe in Jesus as deity, and don't reject the Holy Spirit as God, but you reject trinitarian thought. Laughing Cool

Maybe it's not theology that is your problem, how's your math?? Cool
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4/26/07 12:53 pm


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Post Re: One Thing Oneness Has Right... Dave Dorsey
FloridaForever wrote:
To say that God is a trinity is like saying, "George is Billy, Gene, and Ray."

To say that God is a trinity is more like saying, "George is a father, a husband, and an accountant."

George the Father is a distinct person. George the Husband is a distinct person. George the Accountant is a distinct person.

And yet, they are only one person.
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4/26/07 12:55 pm


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Post TripsD... FloridaForever
When we talk of the trinity, we ALWAYS are referring to three, distinct persons, of course.

But--and this is the catch--we have ALWAYS referred to and understood GOD to be a SINGLE PERSON.

...except when we are forced to forsake that plain, simple, logical, reasonable understanding in order to permit our notion of the Trinity to hold.


Thus, we cannot have THREE PERSONS being ONE PERSON. We either have to modify the three persons in some way or the one person in some way.

Well, we have good reason to believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate persons.

We also have good reason to believe that God is a single person. The Bible even says, "There is one God, THE FATHER...."

With these two things being the case, we have to find some other explanation, otherwise we are saying THREE PERSONS are ONE PERSON.

I am not going to redefine what is obviously meant by the word "God" just to ensure that I don't disrupt the Trinitarian apple cart.

The trinity is simply not bourne out in scripture, nor is it bourne out logically.

If the Hindus said that their million God/Persons were actually ONE GOD, we would not accept them as monotheists. But if they had only three persons, apparently that is perfectly acceptable.

It doesn't work for a million. It doesn't work for three.
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4/26/07 1:46 pm


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Post Scooter...please FloridaForever
It's obvious you are not skilled at this sort of argumentation. You ASSUME that if one believes in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, they MUST be trinitarian.

Well, Oneness folks would claim they believe in all three, yet would go jihad on you if you called them trinitarian.

I am neither trinitarian nor oneness. I have what I consider a third perspective--and a better one (I believe):

There is ONE GOD, the Father.

He has ONE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, Jesus Christ, who is divine and above all powers.

As for the Holy Spirit...I'm not sure how that works exactly, for Revelation references the SEVEN spirits of God, but I consider the Holy Spirit a separate entity/person.

I hope that addresses your points. Please, find someone else to trouble.
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4/26/07 1:52 pm


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Post Re: TripsD... Dave Dorsey
FloridaForever wrote:
Thus, we cannot have THREE PERSONS being ONE PERSON. We either have to modify the three persons in some way or the one person in some way.

There are a lot of things, according to this line of thinking, that we cannot have. The first and foremost being an eternal God. Everything has to have a beginning and an end -- the notion that someone could be eternally existant and pre-existant is simple lunacy.

It seems somewhat limiting to define what we can and cannot have based on our puny human understandings.

Quote:
With these two things being the case, we have to find some other explanation, otherwise we are saying THREE PERSONS are ONE PERSON.

That's precisely what is being said. And, further, that one person is three persons. Welcome to the doctrine of the trinity; enjoy your stay. Smile


Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 4/26/07 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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4/26/07 2:10 pm


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Post Does it matter? broncofan
As a layperson, I find the discussion on this topic to be interesting theory (or I guess theology). However, does it really matter how we believe specifically as long as we know that Jesus gave his life for out sins? I realize my comments are from someone that is not a Bible scholar and is an anti-intellectual approach. But, to try to think through this hurts my head Smile

To me, the important thing is to believe that Jesus was divine and human and gave his life for me, and that God so loved the me that he gave his son (or multiple personality) for me. I realize the purpose of the original post was likely for intellectual purposes and for a desire to be scripturally correct in your doctrine, but does it matter?

I don't mean to be sarcastic at all with that question, but does it matter to our spiritual condition whether we are 100% correct in our doctrinal "thoughts". I realize that if we try to make Jesus not be divine, then that is a problem, but as long as I accept it in faith, it seems to this simplistic mind that I am OK.

To me, this would be similar to debating whether God created the universe in 7 literal days or 7 periods (each of which were millions/billions) of years. The key is who created the universe? Will it affect our spiritual condition and life if I believe in 7 periods versus 7 literal days (even if I believe God could have created the earth in 7 days if he chose, including doing it in 7 nanoseconds if he wanted).

I see the intellectual debates of the two topics similar, but does it really matter as a practical matter.

I settle the matter, in my mind, by believing it is one of those issues that we were not meant to understand as it is beyond our intellect, but that we will understand it better "bye and bye". Simplistic, but at least my head doesn't hurt Smile
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4/26/07 2:11 pm


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Post TripsD...NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FloridaForever
TripsD, you said:


Quote:
Quote:
With these two things being the case, we have to find some other explanation, otherwise we are saying THREE PERSONS are ONE PERSON.

That's precisely what is being said. And, further, that one person is three persons. Welcome to the doctrine of the trinity; enjoy your stay.


See, that is why I find the notion of the trinity repugnant. Not only is is non-scriptural, even those who believe it can't get it right.

No, no, no--we do NOT believe that three person are one person! Not at all. Instead, we believe (rather, trinitarians believe) that three persons are ONE GOD. Not one PERSON. ONE GOD.

OK, I'm going to ask you to take a time-out. If you don't understand trinitarian doctrine yourself, then this is not a debate you want to get into (smile).

Unfortunately, you could say that same line--"three persons are one person"--and you'd get an bit amen in virtually every trinitarian church. They don't even know what they really believe. Just put the words "three" and "one" in the same sentence, and they'll shout for you.
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4/26/07 2:39 pm


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Post Broncofan...Indeed, it is not a heaven or hell issue. FloridaForever
The problem is when people like (if I remember right) Rafael Martinez gets on here and calls Oneness a cult. That's just ignorant.

About the only difference between current Oneness folks and the Church of God of 40 years ago is the notion of the Trinity. Were we a cult back then? No. So to call a group a cult because they see the relation between God and Christ differently is just that arrogant, abrasive, and faulty reasoning that likes to act like if it doesn't line up with tradition, it is therefore unscriptural.

I think a better way to think is: "If it doesn't line up with scripture--whether it's tradition or not--it's wrong."

Some people like to act like they are heresy hunters when they call Oneness folks a cult. Guess some people need that to feel good about themselves.

I don't agree with Oneness doctrine, but if anyone tells you they heretics and do not know Jesus, well, that person is an ignoramus.
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4/26/07 2:46 pm


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Post Re: TripsD...NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dave Dorsey
FloridaForever wrote:
See, that is why I find the notion of the trinity repugnant. Not only is is non-scriptural, even those who believe it can't get it right.

No, no, no--we do NOT believe that three person are one person! Not at all. Instead, we believe (rather, trinitarians believe) that three persons are ONE GOD. Not one PERSON. ONE GOD.

OK, I'm going to ask you to take a time-out. If you don't understand trinitarian doctrine yourself, then this is not a debate you want to get into (smile).

Okay, Captain Semantics. I'll go sit in the corner, you let me know when you think I've been there long enough.

I think it should go without saying that I clearly meant three persons in one God, one God in three persons, etc. But evidently not.

I'll withhold the greater part of my reply in the interest of maintaining good Christian fellowship.
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4/26/07 2:51 pm


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Post TripsD... FloridaForever
Well, if you meant three person in one God, then belay that order to take a time-out.

But, of course, the three persons-one God thing is also faulty, in my opinion. Why? Because a simple, common-sense reading of scripture makes it crystal clear that when we say "God," we mean and understand Him to be a SINGLE PERSON.

But if "God" is actually "three persons," then none of that holds.

Very simply, the evidence for God being a SINGLE PERSON is far, far superior to any evidence that God is THREE PERSONS.

This not only flies in the face of monotheism--the whole God is One thing--but flies in the face of standard language usage, a fair interpretation of scripture, and so forth. It twists (dare I say "perverts"?) the very clear understanding that even a child would take from reading the scripture, beginning in Genesis.

It's a doctrine that apparently was created for the central purpose of removing Arian doctrine, for it certainly seems to come up short from a scriptural standpoint.
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4/26/07 3:26 pm


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Post Re: One Thing Oneness Has Right... Poimen
tripsD wrote:
FloridaForever wrote:
To say that God is a trinity is like saying, "George is Billy, Gene, and Ray."

To say that God is a trinity is more like saying, "George is a father, a husband, and an accountant."

George the Father is a distinct person. George the Husband is a distinct person. George the Accountant is a distinct person.

And yet, they are only one person.



I do plan to get back to you later FF. Been busy.


Just wanted to tell ya TripsD that your example actually quite precisely expresses the notion of Oneness theology -- NOT Trinitarian Theology. See, actually, George is ONE and always remains one person even with three offices, roles, or manifestations. Just an FYI.
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