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Should COG ministers be allowed to pastor nonCOG churches?
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Post Should COG ministers be allowed to pastor nonCOG churches? roughridercog
What's your call?
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Post Never BV COG
And if they do, once I'm elected PB, they will be withdrawn for the denomination and never allowed back. Mad
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Post whyme?
why not?

1. it would extend the reach of your organization

2. it would enable credentialed ministers without opportunity in their geographic area to be active and gain experience

3. it would be kingdom oriented

4. it would make a statement to other churches and organizations that the CofG is not close-minded and exclusive

5. it would put men and women who are called in a place where people are taught, cared for, evangelized regardless of brand recognition

anything less would be anti-Christ in nature and spirit
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4/17/07 9:21 pm


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Post Seriously?? Pastor Gary
Assuming this is a serious question, why on earth not??

If you have a bunch of preachers sitting around not being used and non-COG churches needing pastors, doesn't that sound like a marriage made in... well, HEAVEN?

Who keeps building all these walls of division to stake out turf and mark territory?
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Post Re: Seriously?? roughridercog
Pastor Gary wrote:
Assuming this is a serious question, why on earth not??

If you have a bunch of preachers sitting around not being used and non-COG churches needing pastors, doesn't that sound like a marriage made in... well, HEAVEN?

Who keeps building all these walls of division to stake out turf and mark territory?


Does COGOP allow their ministers to pastor congregations outside the movement?
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Post KevinLloyd
yes. they should.
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4/17/07 9:35 pm


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Post Re: Seriously?? Pastor Gary
roughridercog wrote:
Does COGOP allow their ministers to pastor congregations outside the movement?


I'll go further than "allow" and say "ENCOURAGES." One of the former pastors of my local church here served as interim pastor of a nearby Assembly of God during a transition, and I know several who have pastored independent congregations and "blended" congregations.

I have a young man in Seminary right now (COGOP) who plans to plant a college campus non-denominational congregation upon graduation. My youth pastor will leave me at the end of the year to go work in a non-denominational mission in Cambodia. If all of this belongs to GOD (that's the name over our doors) why do we try so hard to own and control it?
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Post Telecaster
whyme? wrote:
why not?

1. it would extend the reach of your organization

2. it would enable credentialed ministers without opportunity in their geographic area to be active and gain experience

3. it would be kingdom oriented

4. it would make a statement to other churches and organizations that the CofG is not close-minded and exclusive

5. it would put men and women who are called in a place where people are taught, cared for, evangelized regardless of brand recognition

anything less would be anti-Christ in nature and spirit


First of all, only if they are attempting to bring the church into the denomination. To answer the above statements:

1. If you're not ministering from your organization, you're not supporting the reach of the organization. A Methodist brother pastoring a COG church isn't helping the Methodist denomination.

2. There are always open doors for ministry. They may not be exactly where we would like, but really, who got into ministry for themselves? Experience can be gained interning or associate pastoring. Experience gained in another denomination or a non denominational church won't transfer when pastoring in another denomination.

3. Ministering in your own denomination is kingdom oriented as well.

4. By keeping its ministers from appearing to support doctrines contrary to its own interpreted declaration of faith from the Word shows that the COG isn't close minded, rather, heart minded. If being close minded means you don't accept another's teaching because of Biblical errors, then color me close minded.

5. Don't understand your last point. People are taught, cared for, and evangelized in their own denomination. Going outside won't make it any more of a reality.

Color me anit christ I guess, but I believe you should dance with the girl you came to the dance with. If you want to be all of those things, fine do it. But it's not a reason to leave your denomination. Besides, would your credentials really apply in another denomination?
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4/17/07 9:38 pm


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Post vintagefaith77
if we don't pastor COG churches then they DON'T GET OUR MONEY AND OUR BUILDINGS...and we can't have that...who cares about building the kingdom Shocked Acts Enthusiast
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4/17/07 11:01 pm


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Post mustard
minutes say we shouldn't. if your credentialed in the COG then be COG. If you want to be something else, then be something else and quit crying about it. Friendly Face
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4/17/07 11:10 pm


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Post really? Pastor Gary
Telecaster wrote:
1. If you're not ministering from your organization, you're not supporting the reach of the organization. A Methodist brother pastoring a COG church isn't helping the Methodist denomination.


I have no scriptural mandate to help any organization... I am commissioned to expand the kingdom of God and the Lord will build His church, regardless of the label on that church.

Telecaster wrote:
2. There are always open doors for ministry. They may not be exactly where we would like, but really, who got into ministry for themselves? Experience can be gained interning or associate pastoring. Experience gained in another denomination or a non denominational church won't transfer when pastoring in another denomination.


Please explain why "Experience gained in another denomination or a non denominational church won't transfer when pastoring in another denomination." Pastoring is pastoring aside from the denominational junk imposed onto the role... caring, shepherding, discipling, teaching, preaching, etc. are universal pastoral skills, and you can learn them in just about any "normal" church structure.

Telecaster wrote:
3. Ministering in your own denomination is kingdom oriented as well.


Sometimes. Not always.

Telecaster wrote:
4. By keeping its ministers from appearing to support doctrines contrary to its own interpreted declaration of faith from the Word shows that the COG isn't close minded, rather, heart minded. If being close minded means you don't accept another's teaching because of Biblical errors, then color me close minded.


Let me see if I understand; you wouldn't be in favor of allowing a COG Pastor to lead a COGOP congregation, or vice versa? What horrible, heretical view do you fear will creep in (or leak out) by such cross-polination?

Telecaster wrote:
5. Don't understand your last point. People are taught, cared for, and evangelized in their own denomination. Going outside won't make it any more of a reality.


Oh, I do beg to differ on that point... I am taught (currently) by leaders from COGOP, PCUSA, FourSquare and a wonderful independent missionary, as well as a Mennonite Professor. I am cared for not only by my own COGOP leaders but by a close-knit community of pastors in my zip-code who love and support one another. We do evangelism together and say, with honesty and intentionality, that we don't care which of the churches they end up in.
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Post Memory03
many AB's will allow you to do so... they will give you one year to bring it into the CoG... if you cannot get them in the CoG by then you will have to chose between the two...
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Post roughridercog
Memory03 wrote:
many AB's will allow you to do so... they will give you one year to bring it into the CoG... if you cannot get them in the CoG by then you will have to chose between the two...


I know that's there policy, Mem, but is it a reasonable one? If you're starting a church, you can organize too soon and create another struggling congregation of fifty when perhaps if you'd waited and worked a plan you could organize much later with a larger number or perhaps not at all.
This is something that I think we're going to have to deal with as an organization. Either we ordain men for ministry or we don't. To say that we only ordain them for ministry in the Church of God is too short sided.

Now I know there will be those who say, "There are Churches of God needing pastors." If someone wanted to pastor those churches, I'm sure the AB's would have a bunch of names to run before the congregation. Would you rather pastor a church that has run off four pastors in three years or start something fresh. How about pastoring a church that isn't in the organization, but supports camp meeting, youth camps, missions, etc.

It would grieve my heart to think that the only reason that we don't allow our ministers to pastor churches that may be outside the movement is money.
Poor reasoning in my opinion.
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Post Memory03
roughridercog wrote:
Memory03 wrote:
many AB's will allow you to do so... they will give you one year to bring it into the CoG... if you cannot get them in the CoG by then you will have to chose between the two...


I know that's there policy, Mem, but is it a reasonable one? If you're starting a church, you can organize too soon and create another struggling congregation of fifty when perhaps if you'd waited and worked a plan you could organize much later with a larger number or perhaps not at all.
This is something that I think we're going to have to deal with as an organization. Either we ordain men for ministry or we don't. To say that we only ordain them for ministry in the Church of God is too short sided.

Now I know there will be those who say, "There are Churches of God needing pastors." If someone wanted to pastor those churches, I'm sure the AB's would have a bunch of names to run before the congregation. Would you rather pastor a church that has run off four pastors in three years or start something fresh. How about pastoring a church that isn't in the organization, but supports camp meeting, youth camps, missions, etc.

It would grieve my heart to think that the only reason that we don't allow our ministers to pastor churches that may be outside the movement is money.
Poor reasoning in my opinion.




l agree Rough... l think a church should stay in mission status untill they can support a FULL TIME pastor... however long it takes...
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Post Re: really? Telecaster
Pastor Gary wrote:
Telecaster wrote:
1. If you're not ministering from your organization, you're not supporting the reach of the organization. A Methodist brother pastoring a COG church isn't helping the Methodist denomination.


I have no scriptural mandate to help any organization... I am commissioned to expand the kingdom of God and the Lord will build His church, regardless of the label on that church.

Telecaster wrote:
2. There are always open doors for ministry. They may not be exactly where we would like, but really, who got into ministry for themselves? Experience can be gained interning or associate pastoring. Experience gained in another denomination or a non denominational church won't transfer when pastoring in another denomination.


Please explain why "Experience gained in another denomination or a non denominational church won't transfer when pastoring in another denomination." Pastoring is pastoring aside from the denominational junk imposed onto the role... caring, shepherding, discipling, teaching, preaching, etc. are universal pastoral skills, and you can learn them in just about any "normal" church structure.

Telecaster wrote:
3. Ministering in your own denomination is kingdom oriented as well.


Sometimes. Not always.

Telecaster wrote:
4. By keeping its ministers from appearing to support doctrines contrary to its own interpreted declaration of faith from the Word shows that the COG isn't close minded, rather, heart minded. If being close minded means you don't accept another's teaching because of Biblical errors, then color me close minded.


Let me see if I understand; you wouldn't be in favor of allowing a COG Pastor to lead a COGOP congregation, or vice versa? What horrible, heretical view do you fear will creep in (or leak out) by such cross-polination?

Telecaster wrote:
5. Don't understand your last point. People are taught, cared for, and evangelized in their own denomination. Going outside won't make it any more of a reality.


Oh, I do beg to differ on that point... I am taught (currently) by leaders from COGOP, PCUSA, FourSquare and a wonderful independent missionary, as well as a Mennonite Professor. I am cared for not only by my own COGOP leaders but by a close-knit community of pastors in my zip-code who love and support one another. We do evangelism together and say, with honesty and intentionality, that we don't care which of the churches they end up in.


Alright Gary, if I could ask you to step off your spiritual high horse for a moment and be realistic for a second. Maybe that won't be too hard . . .

1. I don't have a scriptural mandate to help in any organization either, other than that of loyalty and honoring oaths I've made. If I'm not mistaken, you have to agree to abide by somethings to be COGOP and the breaking of those would be the breaking of your commitment. Now without just cause, I would say that would be a problem with scriptural mandate. Of course, the Bible doesn't say, "Thou shalt pastor only in the COG." Yet, you felt it necessary to align yourself with someone, so be true to that commitment. You can build the kingdom in any label of church without leaving your denomination.

2. Pastoral experience will differ wherever you go. Say I pastor a small Methodist church in Alabama that runs 50. Surely you don't think that that experience alone would allow me to go pastor a COGOP in Georgia running 250 would you? Anybody can gain experience shepherding and so forth inside their own denomination. To gain experience is no reason to leave.

3. You're right about not always, but it's not always kingdom oriented in someone else's yard either. I'm sure you know that. . . . hopefully.

4. Actually no, I wouldn't. I would hate for my COG brother to find out that he could go pastor a church where all of the people's tithe money went into his pockets . . . . In general, if you're a COG pastor, pastor a COG church or give up your license and go find some experience . . . sorry, that was #2 right?

5. Beg to differ all you want, but regardless of your influences from outside folks, and I have them as well, it doesn't negate the fact that one can find just as valuable influences within their own denomination. That's the point. You can't use the orignial #5 point for a reason to leave a denomination to pastor a different church. Remember, these were 5 reasons why it should be fine. And none of them stack up.

I hope I've answered your questions. Maybe now we can put the gulf between overseer and minister back like it was.
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Post WOW Rough... prefontaine
I gotta say I am surprised at your take on this. I would have guessed you to be dead-set against it.
I think this idea is getting twisted into something it isn't. Nobody is saying (as I think Telecaster assumes) that a pastor do this on the sly. If they are deceitful about it, then no, they shouldn't be pastoring outside of the denomination-they shouldn't be pastoring in the denomination either. I don't personally see the problem with pastor pastoring outside of the COG. If the options are either they sit on a pew in a COG, or they pastor another church (with same or similar doctrine) why not allow that?
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Post Re: WOW Rough... roughridercog
prefontaine wrote:
I gotta say I am surprised at your take on this. I would have guessed you to be dead-set against it.
I think this idea is getting twisted into something it isn't. Nobody is saying (as I think Telecaster assumes) that a pastor do this on the sly. If they are deceitful about it, then no, they shouldn't be pastoring outside of the denomination-they shouldn't be pastoring in the denomination either. I don't personally see the problem with pastor pastoring outside of the COG. If the options are either they sit on a pew in a COG, or they pastor another church (with same or similar doctrine) why not allow that?


I think we should ordain the man for ministry. We have COG ministers teaching at nonCOG colleges and seminaries. We have them also serving as MOM's of other denominations.
In times past we've been too inclusive. It's time to expose some other congregations to some of the best preaching they've ever heard...COG preachers.
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Post Re: WOW Rough... Telecaster
prefontaine wrote:
I gotta say I am surprised at your take on this. I would have guessed you to be dead-set against it.
I think this idea is getting twisted into something it isn't. Nobody is saying (as I think Telecaster assumes) that a pastor do this on the sly. If they are deceitful about it, then no, they shouldn't be pastoring outside of the denomination-they shouldn't be pastoring in the denomination either. I don't personally see the problem with pastor pastoring outside of the COG. If the options are either they sit on a pew in a COG, or they pastor another church (with same or similar doctrine) why not allow that?


I'm not saying don't do it at all. In fact, I suggested in my first post that I'm great with it if it's the intentions of the pastor to bring the congregation into the COG say in about a year. Other than, I think you should give up your license and go get it through the new denomination you choose to pastor.

By the way, the options are never sit on a pew. Some church somewhere is always needing a pastor. Evangelists and associates are always needed as well.

My main response on this thread were on the 5 reasons given to do such a thing. I just simply wanted to point out that those reasons aren't really that good because one could find every one of those reasons to stay as well. That's it.

You seem to constantly assume so much about me to no avail.
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Post Re: WOW Rough... Telecaster
roughridercog wrote:
prefontaine wrote:
I gotta say I am surprised at your take on this. I would have guessed you to be dead-set against it.
I think this idea is getting twisted into something it isn't. Nobody is saying (as I think Telecaster assumes) that a pastor do this on the sly. If they are deceitful about it, then no, they shouldn't be pastoring outside of the denomination-they shouldn't be pastoring in the denomination either. I don't personally see the problem with pastor pastoring outside of the COG. If the options are either they sit on a pew in a COG, or they pastor another church (with same or similar doctrine) why not allow that?


I think we should ordain the man for ministry. We have COG ministers teaching at nonCOG colleges and seminaries. We have them also serving as MOM's of other denominations.
In times past we've been too inclusive. It's time to expose some other congregations to some of the best preaching they've ever heard...COG preachers.


I'm in agreement RR. I just would rather them not pastor the church for the purpose of exposure. Preach in them all day long.
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Post One of the smartest things that could happen doyle
It's been over 20 years ago that I began writing editorials encouraging the COG to not only allow COG ministers to pastor non-aligned churches but to have an active program for doing that.

The editorials were viewed as if some radical person was trying to destroy the COG when in reality, if we put OUR people in THEIR church it only makes us new friends, spreads the positive image of the COG, helps their young people learn about our colleges, attend our camps, give to our missionaries.

Get our people out there meeting hundreds of new people who aren't COG members??? What a radical concept. Or, continue to shuffle them around within our little system, church-to-church, year-after-year.

In my opinion it's actually BRAIN DEAD not to allow this to happen. We're invloved in world evangelism not THE TRUMAN SHOW where walls are built to keep us all inside while there is a massive world out there.

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