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Why we are losing our BRIGHTEST and our BEST
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Post Credentials... prefontaine
Do not equal pastors...maybe it should, but it don't. There are 3 credentialed ministers in my small church: the pastor, another man who may or may not ever be a pastor, and myself, who aspires to be a pastor in the future. If that is the stat for one church of 120 people, what does that look like when you expand it out a little? Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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4/3/07 7:19 pm


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Post Just proof! Rayford J. Bethune
The credentialed is just real numbers to prove that the COG is not losing every one that is young, bright, or the best. By the way, I pray the Lord allows you to have a great ministry in the COG for many years. God Bless!

Rayford J. Bethune
Hey, DOC
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4/3/07 7:27 pm


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Post Re: Serious question... KevinLloyd
Telecaster wrote:
KevinLloyd wrote:
Grandpa Cleland wrote:
Let me ask this question...

Lets say, a man is a credentialed with the Church of God. He is starting a church that... well for the sake of argument, lets say it is an EMERGENT church... It is NOT affiliated with the Church of God, tho said minister still holds credentials with the organization.

I am fine with said minister holding credentials with COG and starting independent work... My question is this..?

When his ministerial report says Do you pay tithes, what does minister put on that blank?

Or what about all of the others on the board that believe tithes are "OT LAW" etc. and feel that we are no longer required to tithe... . what do they write on their ministerial report.... If they don't pay "tithe" because they don't believe in it, what do they put that on the report?

Just Curious!!

*Edited by grandpa to add missing words.

Grandpa


i would put yes.


Not intended to bully . . . but isn't that lying? The report is meant for COG ministers. It is understood if you put yes, it is in a COG. Of course, I believe you have to put where they are paid too.


i'll put that too. i'm not lying.
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Kevin Lloyd
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4/3/07 9:47 pm


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Post KevinLloyd
roughridercog wrote:
roughridercog wrote:
KevinLloyd wrote:
gadawg wrote:
Very well said Grandpa!

Kevin: Do you still hold a ministerial license with the CofG? If your new church is not affiliated with the CofG, why do you still hold your license if the CoG is so bad?


because i got my credentials & want to keep them. i really love some of the people.


Kevin, I'm not being mean. You know that.
But I have to ask a question. How long will you be allowed to pastor an independent church and still keep your credentials with the Church of God? Is there a time limit? Have you discussed this with your AB?


BUMP
Kevin, was my question lost in the mad shuffle? I'm just curious. Is there a timetable?


didn't mean to not answer your ?. i didn't see it until just now. sorry about that. your answers...i don't know how long i'll be able to do so. i don't know if there is a time limit. to be honest i'm just doing what i do and not sweating it too bad. but i've gotten the feeling that i should've kept my mouth shut on here about it (of course i didn't bring it up...someone else did) & i get the feeling that others want to "tell on me". so, i'm just trying to do my thing. i don't feel like i'm doing anything wrong. and who knows, i may come back into the denom one day. i'm not anti-CG...it's just not where i'm at right now.

i hope that helps.
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Kevin Lloyd
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4/3/07 10:03 pm


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Post KevinLloyd
Travis Johnson wrote:
Kevin,

It's a legitimate question. Coming from someone that loves and affirms you, it would be no big deal. But, Telecaster is bent on ripping you a new backside and seemingly could care less about you.

You have an awesome calling on your life, tenacity, and heart to get it done in a big way. Get on with your stuff, bro. Ignore the yappers like Telecaster. This kind of guy is going to pick at you no matter what and demonstrate how that he is holier and better than you. The truth is that you are a known entity with a record to chip at, flaws to see, and a name to write under. He's anonymous and most likely afraid for other people to critique him the way he has critiqued you.

Now, stay on the board. Share about your plant (can't wait to hear about your first preview service). And, challenge us to reprioritize our funding of mission to match up with our stated goals of mission. Hopefully, we'll do that and not lose more guys like you.

I wish that your church was going to be COG. But, you are surrounded by some great guys in ARC. The next time you are at one of those gatherings, tell Robert Pooley I said hello...super guy for you to get to hang with.


thanks for having my back a bit. i know it's legit to ask this. and i don't have a problem with that. i do have an issue with so many throwing the hypocrite word around so freely. anyway, that's another issue.

i feel like i'm CG. i am just not leading one right now. i don't know, i may come back in or may not...just don't know.

it just seems to be such a big deal to point this out by some. if it upsets them, i can't help it. i want to make a difference in church world. i feel like i could still have a strong relationships w/ the CG and maybe even have some value to add...but no, my church isn't one. if that disqualifies me, i can't do anything about that. but i don't feel that i need to go turn anything in.

i hope that helps or gives some light to what's going on in my head/heart. i'm not trying to be an jerk or arrogant with this post or any other. i do hope that others can see that. thanks for asking me a question as a friend. and by the way...i'd love to meet some day.
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4/3/07 10:12 pm


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Post Can one keep COG credentials and pastor independent? Pastor Jim L. Hamby
I am an Ordained Bishop in the COG and have held credentials since 1970. In May, 2002, we started LightHouse Ministries in an elementary school gymnasium. We operated for a solid year (until May, 2003) and did VERY WELL before we organized with the COG.

In other words, I pastored an independent congregation for a year. I reported as a credentialed minister (and my wife reported as a credentialed minister) but my congregation did not send in any reports and did not send in the 15% for a solid year. We operated an independent church.

During that time, I never received one word of threat or intimidation from the officials at our Regional Office in DelMarVa. My wife and I attended Ministerial Retreats/Camp Meetings/Minister's Meeting even though our congregation was independent.

Since May, 2003 we have been a fully recognized, organized COG congregation.

So, the answer is YES a credentialed minister in the COG can pastor an independent congregation and retain his/her credentials with the COG. I would say the key is to keep an open and honest relationship with those in authority and not act in rebellion.
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4/3/07 11:25 pm


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Post Re: Can one keep COG credentials and pastor independent? KevinLloyd
Pastor Jim L. Hamby wrote:
I am an Ordained Bishop in the COG and have held credentials since 1970. In May, 2002, we started LightHouse Ministries in an elementary school gymnasium. We operated for a solid year (until May, 2003) and did VERY WELL before we organized with the COG.

In other words, I pastored an independent congregation for a year. I reported as a credentialed minister (and my wife reported as a credentialed minister) but my congregation did not send in any reports and did not send in the 15% for a solid year. We operated an independent church.

During that time, I never received one word of threat or intimidation from the officials at our Regional Office in DelMarVa. My wife and I attended Ministerial Retreats/Camp Meetings/Minister's Meeting even though our congregation was independent.

Since May, 2003 we have been a fully recognized, organized COG congregation.

So, the answer is YES a credentialed minister in the COG can pastor an independent congregation and retain his/her credentials with the COG. I would say the key is to keep an open and honest relationship with those in authority and not act in rebellion.


thanks jim. that's extremely helpful to me.
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4/3/07 11:27 pm


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Post Jim... Grandpa Cleland
Got a question for you... Being credentialed all of those years with the COG, why would you not get them involved with your plant? I was just curious...

I have always respected your wisdom and your posts over the years and have even seen some of your sermon outlines floating around... LOL I just was wondering why you would start it without the backing/ assistance from the COG. (especially if you were going to bring them into the COG)

If you feel that the question is none of my business, I understand Laughing Laughing Laughing

Just thinking that if i were going to plant, I would get as much assistance (financially especially) of the organization i was affiliated with.

Anyway, thanks Jim for all of the great posts throughout the years...

God Bless

Grandpa
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4/3/07 11:44 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
Kevin,

There is no reason why the denomination should force guys like you to give up credentials. According to Dennis McGuire, we have a severe shortage of young ministers. Our average minister's age is over 60. We should be burning as few bridges as possible.

Also, as Jim pointed out, there is provision for a pastor to be outside the COG without losing credentials. Walter P. Atkinson is pastoring (and has been for a few years) with his son-in-law in an independent church in Chattanooga. He was a member of the EC and my overseer when I was first credentialed. If I recall correctly, he still has his credentials. The EC would not accept them when he turned them in. Another example is Billy Wilson. He is credentialed in both the COG and COGOP. I don't see why you can't pastor outside the COG and maintain credentials like he does.

I guess with you, we'll find out if the COG has a different set of weights for different sets of people. I tend to think, we want to keep the lines open.

Our Presiding Bishop shared a great message about the sons and daughters we've lost. We don't need to lose another one.
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4/4/07 7:15 am


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Post Telecaster
Travis Johnson wrote:
Kevin,

There is no reason why the denomination should force guys like you to give up credentials. According to Dennis McGuire, we have a severe shortage of young ministers. Our average minister's age is over 60. We should be burning as few bridges as possible.

Also, as Jim pointed out, there is provision for a pastor to be outside the COG without losing credentials. Walter P. Atkinson is pastoring (and has been for a few years) with his son-in-law in an independent church in Chattanooga. He was a member of the EC and my overseer when I was first credentialed. If I recall correctly, he still has his credentials. The EC would not accept them when he turned them in. Another example is Billy Wilson. He is credentialed in both the COG and COGOP. I don't see why you can't pastor outside the COG and maintain credentials like he does.

I guess with you, we'll find out if the COG has a different set of weights for different sets of people. I tend to think, we want to keep the lines open.

Our Presiding Bishop shared a great message about the sons and daughters we've lost. We don't need to lose another one.


But Travis, we're not losing them. No one kicked Kevin out. He's left on his own because he feels he can't operate in the COG. I would dare say he's no more radical in idea than you and you operate in the COG and train other ministers. I don't think it's got anything to do with being COG or not as it does with some ministers, not necessarily Kevin, but some young ministers seeing the successes of these independent works and going for it themselves, that way no one can lord over them and tell them how to operate their church.

And that's why we're losing young minsiters, not necessarily the best and the brightest. In fact if they are truly leaving for the above reason then it's rebellion and until that's straightened out, I don't know how we could call them the brightest of our denomination.
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4/4/07 8:38 am


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Post Why we started LightHouse Ministries independent Pastor Jim L. Hamby
The core group that we started with (and they are still with us) had a bad taste in their mouths about the COG. I sought God and felt that He would help me bring them around but that it would take time and patience.

JMT, our AB at the time, agreed and allowed us to be independent for as long as it took.

With love, patience and shepherding, we were able to change their hearts about the COG and bring them into the denomination in a year.

I could have told them that I would not get involved with them unless they agreed to be COG right off the bat but I could see that they have some legitimate grievances and needed time to work through some things. It's been worth the patience because we now have a strong, vibrant congregation and the COG allowed us to take over a property worth well over $1 million dollars with a nice church building and 11 acres for future growth.

By the way, the congregation knew from the beginning that I would not be surrendering my COG credentials to be their pastor and they were fine with that fact.
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4/4/07 8:52 am


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Post Re: Why we started LightHouse Ministries independent SouthGeorgiaBoy
Pastor Jim L. Hamby wrote:
The core group that we started with (and they are still with us) had a bad taste in their mouths about the COG. I sought God and felt that He would help me bring them around but that it would take time and patience.

JMT, our AB at the time, agreed and allowed us to be independent for as long as it took.

With love, patience and shepherding, we were able to change their hearts about the COG and bring them into the denomination in a year.

I could have told them that I would not get involved with them unless they agreed to be COG right off the bat but I could see that they have some legitimate grievances and needed time to work through some things. It's been worth the patience because we now have a strong, vibrant congregation and the COG allowed us to take over a property worth well over $1 million dollars with a nice church building and 11 acres for future growth.

By the way, the congregation knew from the beginning that I would not be surrendering my COG credentials to be their pastor and they were fine with that fact.


I think that is using tremendous wisdom and an excellent approach. Thanks Pastor Hamby!
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4/4/07 11:03 am


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Post SouthGeorgiaBoy
My only problem, sometimes, with a credentialed minister pastoring an independent church is the spirit that is behind the action. There are some who want the benefits of the system without the responsibility of it. I am sure that is not the case with all but it is with some. There are many like Pastor Hamby described.

As to operating in the system, I have held to the belief that the message does not change but the method does. At one time, all of our churches were basically the same wherever you went, large, medium, or small.

That is not the case now. There are many different styles and personalities that make up our churches. There is no reason for a minister not to build the kind of church that God is directing them to do within the system of the Church of God as long as it does not violate the Declaration of Faith or Doctrinal Beliefs of the church.

I am like one poster said, I have never had an overseer to tell me how to or not to pastor my church or what style church to build. We do cutting edge music, big productions, special theme months, try to be relevant to our generation, but still maintain our identity as a Pentecostal church within the Church of God.

We do not need to lose men like Kevin Loyd or any other. I do not believe for one minute that our EC wants that.

I want to see us be who we are and love each other no matter what the worship or operational style as long as we stay true to the Word.
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4/4/07 11:18 am


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Post Realy? Bowtat
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4/4/07 2:10 pm


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Post Realy? Bowtat
I have been reading this post for a while and have enjoyed the ideas set forth for the reasons for "quality" ministers walking away.

Before you read this know that I love the south and all people that come for it. I married a southern women, so thank you. What I am about to say is an example of why young people have no clue how this church judges "Talent."

I live in Maryland and have seen a host of "Southern" men come to our state as State Bishop and as pastors. Our pres tent Bishop comes to us from the great state of Indiana (last host of the General Assembly, and born in SC) and seems to be a nice guy. I know that somethings are out of his hands, but two Churchs that had state board members as their pastor are now southern men.

I know that I nor my friends would have received a call from ether of those Churchs, but I also know that no one from our state was considered. This is a progressive state. We have lots of large churchs with large staffs, we have churchs with young pastor that have turned trash into treasure. We also have a youth board that is made up of, hold your breath, young men and men that work with youth. We have the goods, but still we need a southern men with southern friends to take care of us.

If you look at the Money Maryland has it. If you look at name ministers, why not a Lowery or a former general overseer. People now in the denomination, we have people as far north as Canada and we gave Florida our cast off Bishop.

I AM NOT STUPID. We young and New ministers see this stuff and ask, what about us? I will be doomed to obscurity unless someone likes me. Hay New Jersey is north of here.

For those that have read this and still don't understand. look to the next town at the guy trying to make ends meet and all the state wants is the part, and then look across town at old guy doing the same old thing and wonder why the state is giving him a break or the money from the other pastor.

Here COG take my church's money and give it away, but remember there will come a time you will answer for it.
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4/4/07 2:39 pm


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Post Grandpa Cleland
Travis Says:
Quote:
According to Dennis McGuire, we have a severe shortage of young ministers.


So according to your thinking, pastors who hold COG credentials but don't pastor COG churches and pay no tithe of tithe to headquarters are what we need to boost our shortage????

I highly doubt that is what DM meant in that statement. As far as I am concerned, if you don't pay the tithe of tithe and you don't pastor a COG church you have no business holding credentials... It isn't that hard anymore to go through the state and get them... If you don't like the COG, don't like the "tax" system as it is referred to, than why would you get the honor of holding credentials with that organization?? You can't have your cake and eat it to...

(I do understand Pastor Jim and similar situations like that... but to deliberately say "I won't be COG, than you need to turn in your credentials.)
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4/4/07 2:43 pm


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Post KevinLloyd
Grandpa Cleland wrote:
Travis Says:
Quote:
According to Dennis McGuire, we have a severe shortage of young ministers.


So according to your thinking, pastors who hold COG credentials but don't pastor COG churches and pay no tithe of tithe to headquarters are what we need to boost our shortage????

I highly doubt that is what DM meant in that statement. As far as I am concerned, if you don't pay the tithe of tithe and you don't pastor a COG church you have no business holding credentials... It isn't that hard anymore to go through the state and get them... If you don't like the COG, don't like the "tax" system as it is referred to, than why would you get the honor of holding credentials with that organization?? You can't have your cake and eat it to...

(I do understand Pastor Jim and similar situations like that... but to deliberately say "I won't be COG, than you need to turn in your credentials.)


i have not said that i WON'T be CG. i have said that i am not right now. i do not know what the future holds.
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4/4/07 2:53 pm


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Post I would agree... prefontaine
At least here in the PNW, there is a huge shortage of young ministers. My dad is thought of as a young pastor...he'll be 51 in a few days!!! There is one pastor younger than 30, and only a handful younger than 40. I love most of the pastors in this region, and most of the older ones do have a youthful spirit, but that doesn't mean they will live forever. Sooner or later, they are going to retire, then the guys that are 25 now, will be taking their jobs...and be 40 or so by then. There is nothing wrong with being an old pastor...every young pastor will be an old one sooner or later...but we do need some younger ones too. When a pastor retires, replace him with a 30 yr old, rather than a 50 year old. When a church comes available, look at the younger guys before (yes I said before) the older guys. If you put a 50 year old guy in a church, you will get 10 good years out of him before his energy really affects his ability to minister. Putting a 30 year old in there gives you 20 additional years. There are certainly churches that need more experienced pastors, ie: a large church, or church with some major problems, but not all of them. I think the older guys get the churches because they are older. I thank God that our new AB seems to be trying to grow younger. When a church came available, he looked to some of us younger guys to take it, and I believe a younger guy did take it (it wasn't the city I am called to, or I would have tried out for it for sure). I am not saying,"out with the old, in with the new", but there does come a time for a changing of the guard...and I think we are moving past that rapidly. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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4/4/07 3:01 pm


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Post I am still trying to figure out who the brightest and best Layperson
are. Are there any that post on this board? Acts Enthusiast
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4/4/07 8:00 pm


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Post Re: I am still trying to figure out who the brightest and be Telecaster
Layperson wrote:
are. Are there any that post on this board?


Don't know that I'm the brightest or the best, but I'm young and I ain't going nowhere!
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4/4/07 9:30 pm


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