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Should we remove our church from COG? Serious replies only!
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Post Upon further review... 4thgenCOG
Travis said,
Quote:
It is elitism. We have a lot of it. We promote it. Our culture shuns it. Christ rejected it. If you look at a lot of our churches, you would think that we are Rock Stars, Politicians, and World Leaders prominently in the business of self-promotion. Where is the heart of Jesus in the eight foot high, elevated table and 50 serfs sitting low? I know a lot of people do it because it is expected or offered. But, that doesn't make it right. AND, it communicates the wrong message to our pastors, who inturn emulate the same foolishness.


As I have further reflected upon your comments I came to realize that the very examples you use argue against the point you were trying to make. You say "our culture shuns it," but is that a true and accurate statement?

The Pope, Cardinals, and Bishops of the Catholic Church, Billy Graham, T.D. Jakes, Rick Warren, John MacArthur, etc. of the protestant church, in the sacred culture, and the aforementioned rock stars, politicians, world leaders, and I would add Hollywood celebs, etc. in secular culture are revered, followed, photographed, and honored because our culture, both sacred and secular, craves those who can be looked up to, and given due honor.

The positions held by our state and international officials deserve respect. Those individuals who hold these offices should be given due honor. In formal settings, like a state campmeeting meal function, their seats of honor are appropriate. If even the secular world can recognize this Biblical principle, why can't the church?

Regarding your comments in a later post about those on the front lines, digging out a church, or trying to rescue a church, deserving honor and respect...I agree.

But remember that most of those who now hold positions of authority have paid and in many cases continue to pay a dear price for their calling to leadership.
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4/10/07 11:29 pm


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Post Danger, Danger, Danger! 4thgenCOG
Travis said:
Quote:
With great power, comes great responsibility. See Jesus words in Luke 12:48:

Quote:
Luke 12:48
48 "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.


The denomination, the centralized government organized by the local church, has been entrusted with much and it is failing the stewardship of millions of annualized Evangelism & Home Missions dollars. So, the denominational administrators (including state councils and evangelism board members) need to be reined in and corrected for their mismanagement of Missions dollars.

This issue is about gross mismanagement of our EHM funds by our centralized government. The denomination is trusted by our pastors, churches, and congregants. The denomination has utterly failed in the stewardship of those funds. I pray the money gets taken away from the poor stewards of these funds and reassigned to someone that will honor the mission of Jesus and the wishes of the General Assembly.




A passionate singular focus is a double edged sword. On the one side there is an undistracted, determination that causes much to be accomplished for the Kingdom of God. On the backside of that same sword, however, is the danger of hacking to pieces those who may share an equal passion, but different focus.

I will use a great idea shared in another thread as an example:

Kevin Lloyd and epicchurch.tv invested $1000.00 into a "buzz" creating event...the gas give-a-way.

(Kevin, I applaud your willingness to be creative and take a risk, and I rejoice with you in the buzz the give-a-way created. I fully support what you did... I am simply using this as an example of what I am talking about in regard to the danger of a passionate singular focus.)

Here is the scenario, you have a passionate person who's singular focus is feeding the needy. They see the $1000.00 and calculate how many pounds of food that would have secured for their ministry at the Second Harvest Food Bank. They angrily say, what a waste.

You have another passionate person who's singular focus is children's ministry. They see the $1000.00 and envision the puppets, staging, lights, and other ministry props they could have bought to reach more kids.... They say what a waste to give away gas cards.

You have yet another passionate person who's singular focus is senior adult benevolence. They see the $1000.00 and count the number of prescriptions they could have gotten filled for seniors who may otherwise have to chose food or medicine. They respond, gas give-a-way, what a waste.

These examples could go on almost infinitely...

One can easily see the flaw in the logic of the singularly focus individuals in these examples. Just because the money, the budget, was not spent on their ministry, their focus, does not mean the money was mis-spent. The gas give-a-way was a legitimate ministry investment.

Travis, your passion, and singular focus (opinion) regarding what the EHM budget should be spent on is driving you to make rash statements, that hack away at those who are on your own side. I grieve that you so arrogantly accuse those who are privy to information you do not have, who shoulder responsibility you cannot now carry, of negligence and mismanagement. The General Assembly has determined the % to be sent for the EHM budgets, but has given oversight and management of those funds to the EHM Directors and their boards, and the State AB's and their councils.

The sad reality is that many soldiers die of "friendly fire," please be careful when you pull your trigger.
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4/11/07 12:05 am


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Post Re: Danger, Danger, Danger! Travis Johnson
4thgenCOG wrote:
Travis, your passion, and singular focus (opinion) regarding what the EHM budget should be spent on is driving you to make rash statements, that hack away at those who are on your own side. I grieve that you so arrogantly accuse those who are privy to information you do not have, who shoulder responsibility you cannot now carry, of negligence and mismanagement. The General Assembly has determined the % to be sent for the EHM budgets, but has given oversight and management of those funds to the EHM Directors and their boards, and the State AB's and their councils.


1. Who have I hacked away at?

2. Why is it arrogant to state that the denomination should not misappropriate designated funds?

3. Is it appropriate for a state to spend only $24,000 on church planting out of a $1,000,000+ EHM budget when we are closing more churches than we are opening?

4. If the master looked at our use of the EHM budgets, would he be pleased?
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4/11/07 6:45 am


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Post Travis stop being defensive and "listen" trae
to the wisdom of what 4Th gen is saying. You truly seem to display a sword with only one edge. Sometimes in reading your posts I think you unknowingly are wrestling with "arrogance." I have read repeatedly your polemics on the EHM issue; you give lip service to other ministries but your words betray you. Too, your definition of EHM is parsimonious at best and extremely myopic at worse case. Your seeming cavalier attitude toward ministry to senior adults seems very revealing of a restricted view of ministry.

"Honor to whom honor is due"- not just words but a prescription for a biblical-based behavior. Remember, the people in leadership you seem to consistently bash, for the most part, have been the lonely pastor, underpaid, digging out a church or reviving a church that has been brutalized by some ill-prepared leader (pastor). These leaders were not dropped into their leadership chairs but they have spent years in ministry- yes, honor to whom honor is due.

"Listen" and consider... as well as speak. Keep up your terrific ministry but entertain the idea that other effective ministers disagree with your assumptions and your thoughts regarding effective evangelism and ministry.
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4/11/07 7:47 am


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Post Re: Travis stop being defensive and "listen" Travis Johnson
Trae,

I listen and I'm accountable for what I say. I sign my name and own my thoughts. So, when I say that the EHM budgets are completely mismanaged, I recognize the potential consequences of such statements and put my reputation, past, and future on the line. It is a well thought out position of conviction.

I do not claim infallibility. But, I will rationally and logically defend my position without calling names. I have called no one names. I'm simply speaking to a wide spread practice inherited by every single administrator in our church. They have to wrestle through it and make it right since it is in under their charge. I pray for them as they rise to meet those challenges.

I've shared this with Dr. McGuire personally as well as other leaders, including State Council members, state officials, and leading pastors. When I shared my heart and thoughts with Dr. McGuire, I asked him to critique the way I communicate my concerns. He shared with me that he was aware of my thoughts and he thought that I was handling myself appropriately.

Still, it is a significant struggle that I wrestle with because I do not want to be an antagonist for the sake of being an antagonist. But, it is important for us to function out in the open, with great concern for those that trust us as leaders. Transparency and integrity in this process is paramount to maintain the trust of the members of our movement in every level of our church.

I am not the only one saying it. Leading pastors, members of the Council of 18, sons of the COG, and prominent leaders in our church are saying it and owning their thoughts as well. If I've come of as arrogant, I'm sorry and I'll work on that. But, that perception works both ways.

Upon calling a leader concerning the way a fellow minister was being mishandled by the denomination (which proved true by a trial board), I was told "it was not in my perview and none of my business." It was on that day that I decided I would no longer be silent when friends were mistreated and the General Assembly circumvented (which is what I truly believe is going on with the EHM budget).

Please share with me how I can better present myself, especially when dealing with anonymous authors who routinely call me "arrogant," "defensive," and "cavalier."

Concerning your statement about my cavalier thoughts toward senior adults, you could not be more wrong. As I've shared previously, I've been heavily involved in senior adult ministry as a nursing home pastor for 3 years and overseeing the training and development of nursing home pastors who ministered to about 1,000 seniors in nursing homes weekly.

I would consider that evangelism. I do not consider a senior adult retreat (as paid for by the EHM budget) evangelism. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the last time someone accepted Christ at one of our state or regional senior adult retreats....probably a good sign for why I think its inappropriate that more money is spent from the EHM budget on senior adult retreats than church planting.
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4/11/07 10:07 am


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Post Do... roughridercog
what will work the best and what will result in the most souls won for the kingdom.
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4/11/07 6:09 pm


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Post eagle1
http://actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=15162
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4/11/07 9:34 pm


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Post Travis - thanks trae
Your response to my post regarding defensiveness was enlightening, helpful and in a friendly, helpful tone. I was helped to understand your position by the grace your post displayed.

Thanks
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4/12/07 8:25 am


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Post Re: Travis - thanks Travis Johnson
trae wrote:
Your response to my post regarding defensiveness was enlightening, helpful and in a friendly, helpful tone. I was helped to understand your position by the grace your post displayed.

Thanks


Trae,

Thanks for that...means a lot. It's always nice to be able to engage in discussion and walk away friends. Its easy to do when you know where the other person's heart is. Thanks for showing me your heart.

travis
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4/12/07 6:04 pm


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Post in response to an old entree about a church breaking off fr JLA777
This is my first time posting so I hope it's okay to write all of this. It's a late entree to a Q. asking about a church breaking off from COG. this is just my thoughts on it.When you join a church locally it is like entering into a marriage agreement or a covenant with that church and the denomination it represents. The same is true when your church is connected to other churches and you all represent a certain denomination. You have entered into an agreement or a covenant with that denomination. It seems as though you would have to have a biblical reason for making such a major move like breaking off. For instance… are they preaching heresy or teaching in contradiction to the scriptures. I have belonged to the COG for almost 20 years and of all the preachers I have ever heard preach or teach I have never heard any of them preaching heresy or teaching in contradiction to the scriptures. There are times that some may say something that I may not agree with but over all They are preaching The Word Of God. I don’t think that it’s a good idea to leave a church for reasons of being unsatisfied or frustrated with the way the system works. I know that sometimes things do need to be addressed and they should be. There is a proper way to do it so that it doesn't make you look as though you just want to go against the flow but are seeking a real answer. If it is at all possible and you are in a position to talk about it with those in authority over you I agree with what someone else said, I would do that before you make any real decisions. Breaking off from a denomination is a huge move so that would be a move you would defiantly want to hear the Voice Of God on.
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5/21/07 7:28 pm


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