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sheepdogandy |
the poster who stated, "it always come down to money."
When we left it had absoloutely nothing to do with money.
We gave, raised money for missions and did not complain about it.
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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7304
3/27/07 1:41 pm
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| The weight of the denomination can ... |
Mat |
The weight of the denomination can be "crushing". The money aside, because I believe your church is, and will, give and send more then 15% to support missions and ministry no matter whose name is on the deed. Its the weight of church culture and structure that can be hard to bare. When being "Church of God" is defined by the Minutes, with its "man made" requirements such as 15%, monthly reports, political posturing, and so on, as well as the lack understanding, little useful training if your ministry is "different", no fellowship with "like-minded" pastors, you often feel as if your "pushing" a big rock up a big hill.
Yet, there are "easy" things about a denomination. No filing corporate papers and reports every year, and no corporate boards to deal with. Members who come pretrained in the church "culture" and can be plugged right in. A yearly schedule that provides camps, meetings, events, as well as a structure to look to for missions and Bible colleges. If things don't work out where you're at you can be led to another local church to pastor, and just maybe, if things go good, you could be an Overseer (your wife would love that).
So if you go, you don't have to push the rock anymore, you have to find your own rock.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1986
3/27/07 1:51 pm
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| Travis... |
prefontaine |
When did it switch to 15%? My statement was simply "for as long as I remember." I am only 28, so my memory may not go back far enough to remember the changes.
As far as liking and accepting it, I agree, we don't have to like it, and I agree that it should change. However, it is still no surprise. People leaving the denomination aren't going to be able to help because they can't vote anymore. It just leaves those of us that stay at a greater disadvantage. As far as the denomination being a storehouse, I dunno what to say. I will say that a denomination does need some government, and therefore will need some money to exist. We may be top heavy, and there may be some fat that needs cut, but that doesn't discount the need for some amount of income to the state and international levels. This may be part of my republican coming out, but I am a big fan of more money going into our local churches and states, and less money going to the international level. I also wish that we could write off our percentage going to missions if we can show that we are giving the same amount or more to COG missionaries from our own body. I agree that it is tough to support a missionary or two, or three, and also send that 2.5% into HQ to support international missions. Also, if you are putting money into a church plant in your region, being able to stop payment of the money going to home missions - as long as you can prove that you are giving the same or more to a home missions project. I am by no means defending the current structure of the COG, but I am saying that we know how it is going in. Let's make a difference from within, rather than ranting about it all the way out the door. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
3/27/07 3:14 pm
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| Travis |
4thgenCOG |
You said
| Quote: | | We have an unhealthy practice and a top heavy institution that is largely spending these resources on practices and policy that falls outside of the scope of the mission of Jesus. |
I know you have repeatedly discussed what you believe to be that which falls outside the scope of the mission of Jesus, but one more time please enlighten us as to what specifically the COG is doing that is outside of that scope. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 197
3/27/07 4:32 pm
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| Outside the Scope |
COG TODAY |
Although I disagree with Travis on his approach sometimes, I do agree with his heart to change our COG structure. I'll offer a few examples...
1-Duplicating for the sake of perceived originality. ie. Royal Rangers or Pioneers for Christ; Life Builders or Promise Keepers. This is clearly not a good stewardship thing. Let's focus our energy and money elsewhere (church planting, inner city missions, etc) since their are already effective programs that do those specific ministries.
2-Too much overhead (staff and salary) of elected and appointed positions at state and international level. This happens at the local church as well - we need to stop (funding) some unproductive ministries. I heard Larry Pemberton say it like this "stop kicking the dead horse." the mission of Jesus is too important for us to not hurt some feelings by laying them off. (NOTE:I know it was hard on those families effected by a loss of a job-but closing some of the publishing house was a good step forward for the COG)
3-excessive travel and personal expenses for State and International Office Leadership. (this includes state and international boards) Not a good system when you are in it because the leader takes care of the board and the board takes care of the leader. We need to lead with a more efficient and mission mind in our spending in ministry, but I do believe if you work hard - it is OK to play hard" We cant play hard without working hard though...
I offer these as a few recommendations... |
Friendly Face
Posts: 233
3/27/07 10:35 pm
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| Re: Travis |
Travis Johnson |
| 4thgenCOG wrote: | You said
| Quote: | | We have an unhealthy practice and a top heavy institution that is largely spending these resources on practices and policy that falls outside of the scope of the mission of Jesus. |
I know you have repeatedly discussed what you believe to be that which falls outside the scope of the mission of Jesus, but one more time please enlighten us as to what specifically the COG is doing that is outside of that scope. |
Without a lengthy list, I will say that Jesus did not come to host senior adult retreats. He came to seek and save lost people. He commanded we do the same. If we cannot define the difference between the primary mission of Jesus and secondary "nice-to-haves," we are in the wrong business. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/27/07 10:53 pm
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| Kevin... |
Grandpa Cleland |
| Quote: | i feel like it's bad stewardship to give that much money to the CG.
i feel like it's bad stewardship for them to ask for that much.
i also feel that the vast majority of people who are entrepreneurial leaders who are in your church would have a problem with that.
i don't fully believe in the system...
i wouldn't be able to sell the "why" behind us giving that much to something that makes so little impact. |
WOW 
Tell us how you really feel... Good luck in your independent work... |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 627
3/28/07 12:17 am
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| Stay or leave...HUMMMM???? |
PT |
A few years ago, I was ready to leave the COG, and I mean READY! I had seen years of junk...junk...junk! Time does not permit me to elaborate! I was going to resign my church, turn in my credentials and leave. I was in my church praying for the Lord to show me where to go. The Lord spoke to me and asked a simple question...."If EVERYBODY LIKE YOU LEFT, WHO WOULD EFFECT CHANGE?" Well, needless to say, I had an answer for the Lord..."I don't want to effect change, I want to leave!"
You know, it really doesn't do much good to argue with the Lord, seems He always wins. Since I "decided to stay" God has moved me into a position to effect change...and seems to be moving me more in that direction all the time.
Man, don't give up on the COG...the wheels of change turn slow but they do turn. Man, lead the way...most times the lead can be lonely, but it will be worth it by and by!
Take courage...I hope you actually get to reading this after so many long posts!
PT |
New Member
Posts: 19
3/28/07 12:24 am
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| Your post came to mind as I was praying this morning |
roughridercog |
And I feel led to say one thing...
If you elect to leave both you and the organization will be the poorer for it.
That's just what feel deep in my heart right now.
Your friend and partner in the ministry of Christ
RR
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
3/28/07 6:39 am
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keepthefaith |
Oh the Joy of serving the denomination with a closed mind and closed mouth. Go along with it or get out of it is a bad way of thinking. I thank God for visionaries that believe that change is possible.
Top Heavy, Top Heavy, Top Heavy.
The cost of keeping the system moving is to high. We cannot possibly be in this thing to keep the ole boys in nice offices and big salaries.
Where is mission in all the red tape?
Where is the front line pastors?
Whats wrong with demanding change? I say vote with your money, it's the only thing some understand.
_________________
Faith is the substance... |
Friendly Face
Posts: 452
3/28/07 7:55 am
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| A broader view... |
4thgenCOG |
Travis said:
| Quote: | Without a lengthy list, I will say that Jesus did not come to host senior adult retreats. He came to seek and save lost people. He commanded we do the same. If we cannot define the difference between the primary mission of Jesus and secondary "nice-to-haves," we are in the wrong business.
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When one considers the fact that one of the largest and fastest growing segments of our society is senior adults, perhaps you are overlooking the potential harvest from Senior Adult Retreats. You may choose not to use a retreat as a method to minister to your target segment of the population, but it is narrow-minded indeed to label this ministry to Sr. Adults as a nice-to-have secondary.
I have heard of many methods of ministering to specific segments of the population touted over the years: I.E. Radio, TV, Movies, Free Medical Clinics, Food Pantries, Clothing Closets, Single Moms Free Oil Changes, Back to School Back Pack and Haircuts, etc. Did Jesus command any one of these specifically? No, but neither did He forbid them. If these and the myriad of other methods of reaching people are legitimate, then why not a Senior Adult Retreat?
As I have said to you before Travis, I fear that your zeal at times blinds you to the forest by the trees. Ministry is much broader than you seem to realize. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 197
3/28/07 1:12 pm
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Telecaster |
I'm late to the discussion, but let me add, if you do leave, do all the COG's a favor, and go ahead and denounce your license so we don't have to spend all that "tax" money researching what you're doing to determine if you should even hold license in the COG.
It's funny to me all of these ministers that go independent but want to hold on to their licenses with the COG. I guess they didn't understand the reasoning for getting license in the first place. An individual is only a Reverend in the COG as long as he operates in ministry inside the denomination.
I can respect those who leave and turn their license in and move on. You don't have to be COG to go to Heaven or do a great work for the Lord by any means, but at least do the right thing in leaving, and get rid of the license before the COG has to revoke it.
By the way, it looks better that way too. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/28/07 1:54 pm
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| I returned my credentials. |
sheepdogandy |
Pronto!
The thought of keeping them never crossed my mind.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7304
3/28/07 8:46 pm
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Telecaster |
| I remembered you saying that in another post. I can completely respect that. It just seems that should be the thing to do to me. Glad I'm not the only that thinks that. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/28/07 9:03 pm
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| Re: A broader view... |
Travis Johnson |
| 4thgenCOG wrote: | Travis said:
| Quote: | Without a lengthy list, I will say that Jesus did not come to host senior adult retreats. He came to seek and save lost people. He commanded we do the same. If we cannot define the difference between the primary mission of Jesus and secondary "nice-to-haves," we are in the wrong business.
|
When one considers the fact that one of the largest and fastest growing segments of our society is senior adults, perhaps you are overlooking the potential harvest from Senior Adult Retreats. You may choose not to use a retreat as a method to minister to your target segment of the population, but it is narrow-minded indeed to label this ministry to Sr. Adults as a nice-to-have secondary.
I have heard of many methods of ministering to specific segments of the population touted over the years: I.E. Radio, TV, Movies, Free Medical Clinics, Food Pantries, Clothing Closets, Single Moms Free Oil Changes, Back to School Back Pack and Haircuts, etc. Did Jesus command any one of these specifically? No, but neither did He forbid them. If these and the myriad of other methods of reaching people are legitimate, then why not a Senior Adult Retreat?
As I have said to you before Travis, I fear that your zeal at times blinds you to the forest by the trees. Ministry is much broader than you seem to realize. |
4thGenCOG,
This young overly zealous blind whipper snapper begs you to repeat the same thing on the floor of the General Assembly should the "tax cut" ever come up again. I couldn't imagine a better sales pitch to cut the fat.
The idea that you would suggest the State Office should give free haircuts with the Evangelism Budget is hilarious. And, when you have the stats on how many have been saved at our Senior Adult Retreats, attended heavily by people living on our campground, including my family, I'd love to see them. They are in no way evangelistic.
Hilarious. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/29/07 7:27 am
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| Travis.... |
Phil Hoover |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | 4thgenCOG wrote: | Travis said:
| Quote: | Without a lengthy list, I will say that Jesus did not come to host senior adult retreats. He came to seek and save lost people. He commanded we do the same. If we cannot define the difference between the primary mission of Jesus and secondary "nice-to-haves," we are in the wrong business.
|
When one considers the fact that one of the largest and fastest growing segments of our society is senior adults, perhaps you are overlooking the potential harvest from Senior Adult Retreats. You may choose not to use a retreat as a method to minister to your target segment of the population, but it is narrow-minded indeed to label this ministry to Sr. Adults as a nice-to-have secondary.
I have heard of many methods of ministering to specific segments of the population touted over the years: I.E. Radio, TV, Movies, Free Medical Clinics, Food Pantries, Clothing Closets, Single Moms Free Oil Changes, Back to School Back Pack and Haircuts, etc. Did Jesus command any one of these specifically? No, but neither did He forbid them. If these and the myriad of other methods of reaching people are legitimate, then why not a Senior Adult Retreat?
As I have said to you before Travis, I fear that your zeal at times blinds you to the forest by the trees. Ministry is much broader than you seem to realize. |
4thGenCOG,
This young overly zealous blind whipper snapper begs you to repeat the same thing on the floor of the General Assembly should the "tax cut" ever come up again. I couldn't imagine a better sales pitch to cut the fat.
The idea that you would suggest the State Office should give free haircuts with the Evangelism Budget is hilarious. And, when you have the stats on how many have been saved at our Senior Adult Retreats, attended heavily by people living on our campground, including my family, I'd love to see them. They are in no way evangelistic.
Hilarious. |
Evangelism is one of MANY ministries of the church..any local church..
Evangelism is not the ONLY ministry of the church...nor should it be.
_________________
There is a ROCK between me and a hard place. His name is JESUS.
www.philhoover-chicago.blogspot.com |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15383
3/29/07 9:11 am
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| Re: A broader view... |
KevinLloyd |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | 4thgenCOG wrote: | Travis said:
| Quote: | Without a lengthy list, I will say that Jesus did not come to host senior adult retreats. He came to seek and save lost people. He commanded we do the same. If we cannot define the difference between the primary mission of Jesus and secondary "nice-to-haves," we are in the wrong business.
|
When one considers the fact that one of the largest and fastest growing segments of our society is senior adults, perhaps you are overlooking the potential harvest from Senior Adult Retreats. You may choose not to use a retreat as a method to minister to your target segment of the population, but it is narrow-minded indeed to label this ministry to Sr. Adults as a nice-to-have secondary.
I have heard of many methods of ministering to specific segments of the population touted over the years: I.E. Radio, TV, Movies, Free Medical Clinics, Food Pantries, Clothing Closets, Single Moms Free Oil Changes, Back to School Back Pack and Haircuts, etc. Did Jesus command any one of these specifically? No, but neither did He forbid them. If these and the myriad of other methods of reaching people are legitimate, then why not a Senior Adult Retreat?
As I have said to you before Travis, I fear that your zeal at times blinds you to the forest by the trees. Ministry is much broader than you seem to realize. |
4thGenCOG,
This young overly zealous blind whipper snapper begs you to repeat the same thing on the floor of the General Assembly should the "tax cut" ever come up again. I couldn't imagine a better sales pitch to cut the fat.
The idea that you would suggest the State Office should give free haircuts with the Evangelism Budget is hilarious. And, when you have the stats on how many have been saved at our Senior Adult Retreats, attended heavily by people living on our campground, including my family, I'd love to see them. They are in no way evangelistic.
Hilarious. |
thanks for letting all of us young guys know where we stand.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/29/07 9:16 am
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| Re: Travis.... |
Travis Johnson |
| Phil Hoover wrote: | Evangelism is one of MANY ministries of the church..any local church..
Evangelism is not the ONLY ministry of the church...nor should it be. |
Phil, good point. But, the discussion is the EHM Budget. Evangelism should be the sole purpose of the Home Missions and Evangelism Budget. Unfortunately it is not. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/29/07 9:22 am
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philunderwood |
| Quote: | | ...perhaps you are overlooking the potential harvest from Senior Adult Retreats. |
now THAT is funny. in the context of the CofG, the manner in which these retreaets are promoted and sold, the line-up and agendas that are advertised, evangelism has NEVER once crossed the mind of someone in the planning aspect.
_________________
Live an epiK life!
Discover More...
http://www.refocusing.org
A Mission in Formation
www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
3/30/07 8:26 am
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| Nice try at a smoke screen, but... |
4thgenCOG |
Travis I am blown away by your sheer disregard of what I actually was saying in my post, or maybe you ran into one of those pesky trees that keep getting in the way of your seeing the forest and gave yourself a concussion that disabled you from being able to understand. 
You said,
| Quote: | The idea that you would suggest the State Office should give free haircuts with the Evangelism Budget is hilarious. And, when you have the stats on how many have been saved at our Senior Adult Retreats, attended heavily by people living on our campground, including my family, I'd love to see them. They are in no way evangelistic.
Hilarious.
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Reread the post and you will realize that I was not suggesting that the state office offer free haircuts, but using the free back-to-school haircuts outreach as an example of the many different outreach/evangelism methods employed and touted by various churches.
The point I was making, that you seem to have missed, is that just because the method (I.E. Senior Adult Retreat) used is not the method you choose to use, does not make it less legitimate as ministry. I am not old enough to attend the Sr. Adult Retreats, but I do know that Seniors are one of the largest and fastest growing segments of the US population. The church cannot just push them aside, forget about them, and move on.
Phil, thanks for adding the posters. Perhaps you have never heard these speakers, or singers, but if they show up and sing and preach and it is not the Gospel being preached and sung, I will be shocked. And when the Gospel is preached, people get saved. These types of settings, and meetings are very appropriate for ministering to this age group.
Last edited by 4thgenCOG on 3/30/07 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 197
3/30/07 1:23 pm
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