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Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians?
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Post Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? texasmav
If they truly believe that Jesus died for their sins, yet they still follow all of the other Catholic teachings are they saved?
I have my own opinion but I was just curious what others think.
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4/18/06 6:59 pm


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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? Travis Johnson
If someone is geuinely following Christ while ignorantly following Catholic teaching, then I would say yes, they are followers of Christ.

If someone is knowledgeable about the Scriptures yet continue to follow false teaching and encourage others to do the same, based on my understanding of the Scriptures, that person would be outside of the grace of Christ and in jeopardy.
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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? Travis Johnson
A sincere practicing Jehovah Witness would be denying the deity of Jesus Christ.
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4/19/06 4:52 am


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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? Land of Middle Girth
Porpoise Driven Neptune wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
A sincere practicing Jehovah Witness would be denying the deity of Jesus Christ.


Exactly.

And a sincere practicing Catholic would be denying that they are saved through faith in Christ.

Both would seems to be basic prerequisites to me.



Plus, don't they have a Saint for stubbed toes? That kinda discredits them too, doesn't it?
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4/19/06 5:46 am


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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? HighlyFavoured
This is interesting...I have this subject going on another board.

I am interested in seeing everyones biblical views on this.
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4/19/06 6:08 am


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Post Catholics as Christians? FG Minister
I pastor a church of 250 and 80% are formerly Catholic. Catholics do believe you are saved through faith in Jesus Christ, but they don't stop there. They also believe that salvation is not completed by Christ and you must "work" to be finally justified. Those works are numerous based upon the traditions of the Catholic Church.

Are they born-again? Most are not. They are trusting in their infant baptism, their works, and the confessional. As you know, they have an unhealthy devotion to Mary as well. Another issue is that the Catholic Church believes "it" is the final arbiter of truth - not the Bible. Their interpretation of the Bible and their traditions are more important than scripture itself.

Some are born-again, but they continue in the Catholic Church either as a witness or mostly because the family shuns them if they leave. Since the Catholic Church teaches that only Catholics are right and it is ingrained in them from childhood - they are often afraid to leave the church - just in case the Catholic Church is THE church and we Protestants are wrong.
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4/19/06 11:10 am


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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? KariJay
To me, lots of people profess being catholic. But the ones I know...only go to mass on holidays. They drink, cuss, have premarital relations, and one I know was even with a married man. When I made a comment about something regarding church, she'd jump down my throat all offended I had mentioned a religion other than the Catholic faith. Catholic people baffle me. I have not really met any truly devoted catholics. I think it's a religion for the lazy.
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4/19/06 12:16 pm


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Post I Bothers Me To Think BV COG
That me dear great-grandmother who was a Spirit filled Catholic wasn't saved. All those hours she prayed for me to find the Lord meant nothing, right?
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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? KariJay
Forgive me if I sounded harsh. I'm going off of the catholic people I have known a met.

If you find a spirit filled catholic...Catholic might just be a title...Penticostal would be more like it. Smile
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Post Funny, I thought the Bible states that if a person confesses animus
with the mouth the Lord Jesus Christ... and believes in his/her heart that God has raised Christ from the dead... that person is saved regardless of what label we place on the person, e.g. protestant, catholic, pentecostal, etc.

Most of what is discussed as theology on this board is nothing more than sociology; in fact, most of the reasons why we worship where we do, and how we do, has nothing to do with theology and everything to do with how we come together as groups.
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4/19/06 2:22 pm


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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? DHDRabbi
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4/19/06 2:59 pm


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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? TheoloJohn
I guess the more important question for us is, "Can a person be a sincere practicing Church of God person and still be saved?" 8)

Since the Bible reveals that God will judge all people according to their words, thoughts, and deeds, and since out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and since only what is in the heart (one's ultimate personal motivation) is what makes an action right or wrong (Mark 7:20-23), I would have to say that God knows the hearts of all people, and no one will be able to fool God on Judgement Day (or any other day, for that matter). As Jesus said, "Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matt 5:8)

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

I do think a distinction should be made between something done in ignorance and something done in willful ignorance, as well as something done in willful disobedience to revealed light. I would have to say that a "Spirit-filled Roman Catholic" would have to be incredibly ignorant of the Bible to stay within the fold of the Pope of Rome.

I would say that it is barely possible (but indeed possible) for a Catholic or a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon or whatever, who was truly ignorant of the Bible, but who was at the same time truly hungering and thirsting after righteousness, if they perhaps died before they saw the Gospel clearly, for them to be saved. The Bible says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I know when I was first saved at the tender age of five, I didn't know much about proper theology except that God loved me and Jesus died for me and wanted to forgive me of my sins, clean me out on the inside and save me. When I asked Jesus to come into my heart, He did, in the most sweet and wonderful way. It was a few years before I ever even really began to think about "orthodox" doctrines like the Trinity, justification by faith, sanctification, the Full Deity and Humanity of Christ, etc.

The bare minimum requirements for salvation that I see in the Bible are: repentance from sin and towards God with faith in the Lord Jesus.

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.


The problem is, the watered-down gospel of contemporary evangelicalism would substitute a "repeat after me" so-called "sinner's prayer" that is nowhere found in the Bible, and was never the way of salvation as preached by Christ or His Apostles. Instead of biblical repentance (a genuine change of heart and mind about sin, righteousness, and judgement to come) we just try to get people to repeat an unscriptural sinner's prayer.

Certainly, there's nothing necessarily wrong with repeating the so-called sinner's prayer, IF in fact it is an expression of genuine repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus, and if in fact the person praying it knows that what he is doing is merely the beginning of a lifetime journey of following Jesus Christ as Savior and LORD.
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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? philunderwood
Quote:
Since the Bible reveals that God will judge all people according to their words, thoughts, and deeds, and since out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and since only what is in the heart (one's ultimate personal motivation) is what makes an action right or wrong (Mark 7:20-23), I would have to say that God knows the hearts of all people, and no one will be able to fool God on Judgement Day (or any other day, for that matter). As Jesus said, "Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matt 5:8)


me thinks Jesus was speaking here of the then-present reality under the law. if you take this premise logically, then there is NO hope, no JUSTIFICATION by faith, no NEED for the Cross.
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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? TheoloJohn
philunderwood wrote:
Quote:
Since the Bible reveals that God will judge all people according to their words, thoughts, and deeds, and since out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and since only what is in the heart (one's ultimate personal motivation) is what makes an action right or wrong (Mark 7:20-23), I would have to say that God knows the hearts of all people, and no one will be able to fool God on Judgement Day (or any other day, for that matter). As Jesus said, "Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matt 5:8)


me thinks Jesus was speaking here of the then-present reality under the law. if you take this premise logically, then there is NO hope, no JUSTIFICATION by faith, no NEED for the Cross.


I don't see how that follows, Phil. Genuine faith in Christ and His redemptive work purifies the heart.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

If your apparent premise follows, then Christ was deceiving people when He said "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

The dispensationalist compartmentalization of the words of Jesus as if they do not pertain to the New Covenant would make Christ himself a deceiver.
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Post Paul, the Apostle of Grace and Faith, Preached Moral Law TheoloJohn
Act 24:24 Then after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was a Jewess, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and the Judgment to come, Felix trembled and answered, Go for this time, but taking time later, I will call for you.
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Post Re: Are sincere practicing Catholics true christians? TheoloJohn
Also, contrary to antinomianism, the Cross of Christ was never intended to make disobedience acceptable. To the contary, it was expressly done to turn people away from their sins.

Act 3:26 Having raised up His son Jesus, God sent Him to you first, to bless you in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.

The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world,
Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Christ gave Himself for the express purpose of redeeming us from all iniquity and to purify to Himself a special people:

Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and purify to Himself a special people, zealous of good works.

Or as the eminent Swedish Pietist theologian, Waldenstrom says in my signature line:
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Post Porpoise Driven Neptune should direct a question to animus
our heavenly Father and ask Him if He really meant that "anyone who confesses with his/her mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believes in his/her heart that God raised Him (Christ) from the dead would be saved." Do you believe the scripture or not Porpoise? Friendly Face
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Post Mother Theresa selah on this
speaking of this...I have been reading alot of Mother Theresa books recently because I want to be a part of a missional, externally focused church and you can't get any more externally focues than Mother Theresa. But, I was reading one of her books the other day and I got to her thoughts on prayer. Everything she said was great and inspiring until she said "And then I began to pray and ask the Blessed Mary to strenghten me." When I read that, I was shocked! I know I shouldn't have been since she is CAtholic, but for some reason, it just REALLY struck me the wrong way. How can this woman, who epitomizes the mission of the gospel be praying to Mary? I wonder what God is thinking in Heaven? Does God intercept the prayers to Mary and answer them anyway, or does He not hear these prayers at all? Member
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Post Antinomianism definitely not taught in NT after Calvary... TheoloJohn
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Rom 8:12 So, then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh,
13 for if you live according to flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Gal 5:16 But I say, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you beforehand, as I also said before, that the ones practicing such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I guess there's "no hope, no justification, no need for the cross," in light of the above passages, according to some.
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Post Porpoise Driven Neptune, what I believe... animus
You are correct in that you have answered my question and stated your rationale. I appreciate that.

I will respond in several statements:

I accept literally the scripture as it is stated: (paraphrased) that if a person confesses with his/her mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believes in his/her heart that he has risen from the grave- He or She is saved.

I certainly understand the issue of living a "sanctified" life and I too accept the writings of Paul ET AL regarding the Christian walk. However, where I think you and others whose myopic view forces them into a quasi-legalistic posture miss the point is in your attempt to equate the sociology of worship with theology.

For example: do you ask people to pray for you or.. stating it another way: to intercede on your behalf through prayer and supplication? I'll come back to this below.

You see my friend, we take "doctrine" or Scripture and we force it to fit our pre-conceived notion of what it means and how it applies. We do this based upon the traditions which we have been taught.

I have a number of Catholic acquaintances who are evangelical, who know scripture, who love the Lord and who still attend their Catholic church. For you or others to carte blanche write them off is not only incorrect, but smacks of provincial thought.

You infer we should take "the whole bible" "rightly divided" ( I agree with that) and to take one verse is cultish (it may or may not be). I suppose that you have (based on the way you in cavalier fashion wrote off John 10:9) a way of writing off "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have eternal life." You see, all of the theology which you have been taught (and I applaud your search and study for knowledge) pales in the face of that one scripture. Does it stand alone Porpoise?

Certainly, John 3:16 stands on its own integrity. Doesn't it? John 10:9,10 stands on a similar integrity. If the question had been asked about the doctrine of perseveration touted by many denominations you would have argued against the doctrine but I doubt you would have condemned those who believe it to hell. Then, though many believe in predestination- I doubt you would condemn them to hell. Too, we believe in baptism by immersion; though others sprinkle a few drops on the head we don't condemn them to hell. However, because of our prejudicial view of Catholics ( from our roots as a southern, rural church) we condemn catholics to hell because they believe they can ask Mary to intercede on their behalf.

Of course, we don't agree with their practical teachings. However, as a denomination we are not far removed from their practical teachings. How many of our members buy lottery tickets? How many enjoy wine or beer on occasion. How many of our members frequent night clubs while in Las Vegas or other vacation places?

I suggest that you are not in a position to state whether or not a Catholic or anyone else that believes in the Lordship of Jesus Christ is unacceptable in Christ's eyes. I suggest back to you that you look at "all" of the scriptures regarding salvation. You may find it refreshing to know that grace abounds greatly in the kingdom of God.

Please accept this in the spirit of respect and friendship with which it is offered.
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