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Secular Music in Church. WWJD?
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Post Re: comparison *contains words not appropriate for kids* Pastor Gary
COGCharlie wrote:
What I would like to know is if you would invite a group into your church (I cant believe this by the way) who sang songs that were awful, not just neutral to God, but were in opposition to what scripture teaches. Would it be right to tell people to do the things that they promote in their music? Let's take a look at a few of "artists" that you cited that you have heard played in "churches" somewhere in the country and See...WWJD?

Switchfoot
Sex is easier than love,
It's easier than love,
It's easier to fake and smile and brag
It's easier to leave,
It's easier to lie,
It's harder to face ourselves at night
Feeling alone,
What have we done?
What is the monster we've become?
Where is my soul? (Where is my?)
Where is my soul?



Okay -- you find SWITCHFOOT, and the honesty of those lyrics OFFENSIVE? I listen to Switchfoot -- I have that song on my iPod, and if you missed the point of the song by selectively redacting lyrics to prop up your supposition, you need to talk to a youth pastor.

Here are the REST of the lyrics..

Sex is currency
She sells cars,
She sells magazines
Addictive bittersweet, crack your hands,
with the hopeless nicotines

Everyone's a lost romantic,
Since our love became a kissing show
Everyone's a cassanova,
Come and pass me the mistletoe

Everyone's been scared to death of dying here alone

She, is easier to love
It's easier to lie
It's easier to fake and smile and brag

It's easier leave
It's easier to lie
It's harder to face ourselves at night
Feeling alone,
What have we done?
What is the monster we've become?

Where is my soul?

Sex is industry,
The CEO, of corporate policy
Skin-deep ministry,
Suburban youth, hailing so-called liberty

Every advertising antic,
I've been a ways with a neon glow
War and love become pedantic,
We wage love with a mistletoe

Everyone's been scared to death of dying here alone

She, is easier to love
It's easier to lie
It's easier to fake and smile and brag

It's easier leave
It's easier to lie
It's harder to face ourselves at night
Feeling alone,
What have we done?
What is the monster we've become?

Where is my soul?


If a preacher can't use that as a starting point for a youth message on the fultility of meaningless sex as a poor substitution for real love and marital commitment, and how the media and society seduce people into accepting sex instead of love... then I question that preacher's ability to see the nose on his face.
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Post Re: comparison *contains words not appropriate for kids* KevinLloyd
COGCharlie wrote:
What I would like to know is if you would invite a group into your church (I cant believe this by the way) who sang songs that were awful, not just neutral to God, but were in opposition to what scripture teaches. Would it be right to tell people to do the things that they promote in their music? Let's take a look at a few of "artists" that you cited that you have heard played in "churches" somewhere in the country and See...WWJD?

Black Eyed Peas
What you gon' do with all that junk?
All that junk inside that trunk?
I'ma get, get, get, get you drunk,
Get you love drunk off my hump.
What you gon' do with all that a**?
All that ass inside them jeans?
I'ma make, make, make, make you scream
Make you scream, make you scream.
What you gon' do with all that junk?
All that junk inside that trunk?
I'ma get, get, get, get you drunk,
Get you love drunk off this hump.
What you gon' do wit all that breast?
All that breast inside that shirt?
I'ma make, make, make, make you work
Make you work, work, make you work.

Sugarland
No more, what a bore, had enough, I'm out the door
Headed for a breakdown, had it with the small town
Gonna call Lisa, gonna call Carla Sue
Now we're gonna let it roll, gonna let it rip
Gonna get us a nice room down on the strip
Not that we'll need it, there won't be any sleepin' tonight
So, now if anyone asks, not that they would
We'll be down in Mississippi and up to no good

Keith Urban
Don't you know
Nobody drinks alone
Every demon, every ghost
From your past
And every memory you've held back
Follows you home
Nobody drinks alone
You remember whiskey on your daddy's breath
So you always stick to wine
And you scared your little brother half to death
You just kept it all inside
You can hear your mama cryin'
Only now she cries for you, and

All American Rejects
I'll keep you my dirty little secret
(Dirty little secret)
Don't tell anyone or you'll be just another regret
(Just another regret, hope that you can keep it)
My dirty little secret
Who has to know
When we live such fragile lives
It's the best way we survive
I go around a time or two
Just to waste my time with you
Tell me all that you've thrown away
Find out games you don't wanna play
You are the only one that needs to know

Justin Timberlake
Go rock with me, you deserve the best
Take a few shots
Let it burn in your chest
We could ride down
Pumpin N.E.R.D. in the deck
Funny how a few words turn into sex
Play this free, joint called "brain"
Ma, take a hint
Make me suerve in the lane

Switchfoot
Sex is easier than love,
It's easier than love,
It's easier to fake and smile and brag
It's easier to leave,
It's easier to lie,
It's harder to face ourselves at night
Feeling alone,
What have we done?
What is the monster we've become?
Where is my soul? (Where is my?)
Where is my soul?

Evanescence
Long lost words whisper slowly to me
Still can't find what keeps me here
When all this time I've been so hollow inside
I know you're still there
Watching me, wanting me
I can feel you pull me down
Fearing you, loving you
I won't let you pull me down
Hunting you, I can smell you - alive
Your heart pounding in my head
Watching me, wanting me
I can feel you pull me down
Saving me, raping me, watching me
Watching me, wanting me
I can feel you pull me down
Fearing you... loving you
I won't let you pull me down

Aerosmith
Way too many examples from these guys...sorry for the explicit lyrics...
From San Antone to Marrakesh
Yeah when the night comes
Everybody gotta have flesh
You got me all soakin' wet
Flesh... the only thing that's worth the sweat
From the day that Eve did Adam
Down to Romeo and Juliet
Everybody gotta have...

Anyway, I wanted to give you an example of some of the stuff that these guys push. When we play their music in God's house then you are telling people it is ok that these people dont live up to God's standard. It is ok to go out and sin and sing about it.

To be honest, I have to wonder why you would let these kinds of people to be examples for christians. I would not attend your church and I am scared of churches like yours when it comes to my kids. I do not want them getting mixed messages. I tell them that they have to live a holy life to please God. You have to strive to holiness...not compromise with the world to try and win friends to convince them you are a cool christian... This makes me sad...


I only got 3 things from this:

1. We don't use EVERY SONG! I, nor is anyone else who uses stuff like this, an idiot! We use songs that build on a topic or start a conversation. Either you're being way to dogmatic about this, just silly, or you REALLY don't get it.

2. You have way too much time on your hands.

3. The age old ? of WWJD. All I can see in the bible, and I mean, maybe I'm looking in the wrong place or you guys know a secret about him that I don't. What Jesus did is hang out w/ SINNERS. He hung out w/ all of the people who drive by 12 of our churches on the way to the lake every week. They were attracted to him WAY BEFORE their life was ever changed. If he lived in our community, I don't believe that he would be in church on Sunday. Or any church that didn't have a singular focus on reaching the lost. You asked if we would invite these people to sing at our church...probably not...although that would be kinda cool. In regards to what Jesus would do...he wouldn't invite them to church...he wouldn've gone to the concert.

PS-I bet you never thought you'd ever type the words "Whatcha gon do w/ all that junk inside that trunk" did you?
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Post Telecaster wrote: myinquringmind
Telecaster wrote
"Infusing God's house with secular songs that meanings have to derived in order to represent God"


Have you looked at the hymnal book lately. How many of the good old hymnals have meanings that have to derived. "I'm going to take a trip on a good old gospel ship." Just because the songs make you think doesnt make them bad.
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2/28/07 11:13 pm


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Post Re: Telecaster wrote: Telecaster
myinquringmind wrote:
Telecaster wrote
"Infusing God's house with secular songs that meanings have to derived in order to represent God"


Have you looked at the hymnal book lately. How many of the good old hymnals have meanings that have to derived. "I'm going to take a trip on a good old gospel ship." Just because the songs make you think doesnt make them bad.


Yea, you're right. I had to really dig to figure out God had something to do with the Good Ol' Gospel Ship. Come on man, You just wasted a post.
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2/28/07 11:45 pm


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Post Re: comparison *contains words not appropriate for kids* Telecaster
Pastor Gary wrote:
COGCharlie wrote:
What I would like to know is if you would invite a group into your church (I cant believe this by the way) who sang songs that were awful, not just neutral to God, but were in opposition to what scripture teaches. Would it be right to tell people to do the things that they promote in their music? Let's take a look at a few of "artists" that you cited that you have heard played in "churches" somewhere in the country and See...WWJD?

Switchfoot
Sex is easier than love,
It's easier than love,
It's easier to fake and smile and brag
It's easier to leave,
It's easier to lie,
It's harder to face ourselves at night
Feeling alone,
What have we done?
What is the monster we've become?
Where is my soul? (Where is my?)
Where is my soul?



Okay -- you find SWITCHFOOT, and the honesty of those lyrics OFFENSIVE? I listen to Switchfoot -- I have that song on my iPod, and if you missed the point of the song by selectively redacting lyrics to prop up your supposition, you need to talk to a youth pastor.

Here are the REST of the lyrics..

Sex is currency
She sells cars,
She sells magazines
Addictive bittersweet, crack your hands,
with the hopeless nicotines

Everyone's a lost romantic,
Since our love became a kissing show
Everyone's a cassanova,
Come and pass me the mistletoe

Everyone's been scared to death of dying here alone

She, is easier to love
It's easier to lie
It's easier to fake and smile and brag

It's easier leave
It's easier to lie
It's harder to face ourselves at night
Feeling alone,
What have we done?
What is the monster we've become?

Where is my soul?

Sex is industry,
The CEO, of corporate policy
Skin-deep ministry,
Suburban youth, hailing so-called liberty

Every advertising antic,
I've been a ways with a neon glow
War and love become pedantic,
We wage love with a mistletoe

Everyone's been scared to death of dying here alone

She, is easier to love
It's easier to lie
It's easier to fake and smile and brag

It's easier leave
It's easier to lie
It's harder to face ourselves at night
Feeling alone,
What have we done?
What is the monster we've become?

Where is my soul?


If a preacher can't use that as a starting point for a youth message on the fultility of meaningless sex as a poor substitution for real love and marital commitment, and how the media and society seduce people into accepting sex instead of love... then I question that preacher's ability to see the nose on his face.


I'll add that I agree with Pastor Gary. Take the whole song. Switchfoot are professing Christians and to my knowledge, have done nothing to tarnish that claim. The song definitely talks about the sin of sexual immorality and the cheap "replacement" it is for real love from God.
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Post Telecaster you're right... myinquringmind
I just could not resist...... Friendly Face
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Post music Charlie Metz
uncle uncle!!!

Geez, did I stir up the hornets nest? I dont have much time at all, I just cut and pasted these things.

The only point that I was making (switchfoot aside) is that secular music finding its way into a church service makes me question methodology. Why is it that you cant find music with meaning from the hymnal, the psalms or some other area that is edifying to the body at to Christ? Why do we have to reach out to bring in worldly influence to be able connect and propogate the message of Christ?

I am tired of hearing people say that Christ went out to the sinner as a defense for bringing the world into the church. Christ went out to be with sinners to bring them into the kingdom. He didn't act like them or allow them to influence His message... He spoke the truth and let His light shine on them. When He ate dinner with Zacheus He didn't go with Zacheus afterwards to help him collect taxes. The one place it is recorded in scripture where He got angry was when the world was brought into the House of God.

Anyway, separation... We are required to be holy and separate people. We are to be different. I didn't once say not to eat with sinners. I am saying meet them where they are and them bring them to the House of God to know what it means to be separate.

If you sit in a church service and your are not uncomfortable with your sin, then you aren't in the right church.
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Post Bishop of Acts
Who has read Rebirth of Music?????????? Read the book and we wouldnt have this thread!
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Post Seriously, now Pastor Gary
Bishop of Acts wrote:
Who has read Rebirth of Music?????????? Read the book and we wouldnt have this thread!


You don't really believe that do you? Laughing Laughing Laughing

We all read the same Bible and debate every passage in there; what makes you think we'd all buy what Lamar B. says if we don't agree with what Paul means?? Laughing Laughing
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Post Come on now... Political_Pastor
Quote:
Anyway, separation... We are required to be holy and separate people. We are to be different.


You keep saying this, in reference to music. How about other things? Like that Internet that you are on. You know that 60% of all web pages are sexual in content? Why not be a separationist on the Internet issue? Is it because we view church and home on 2 different levels of holiness. We can watch the show Heroes at home, but don't dare talk about magic at church. Listen to the same music we are talking about here all day, over the Muzak system at work, but don't you dare put any of that in my church. Maybe the mantra should be "What happens at Home stays at home." Or more appropriately, "What happens at church, stays at church." It's time we stop separating the two and realize that we do live IN this world, let grab culture by the horns and use it to our advantage.
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Post Re: Telecaster you're right... Telecaster
myinquringmind wrote:
I just could not resist......


Maybe now we should all build a fire and sing, "I would do anything for love, but I won't do that . . . . " Laughing
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Post Re: music Telecaster
COGCharlie wrote:
uncle uncle!!!

Geez, did I stir up the hornets nest? I dont have much time at all, I just cut and pasted these things.

The only point that I was making (switchfoot aside) is that secular music finding its way into a church service makes me question methodology. Why is it that you cant find music with meaning from the hymnal, the psalms or some other area that is edifying to the body at to Christ? Why do we have to reach out to bring in worldly influence to be able connect and propogate the message of Christ?

I am tired of hearing people say that Christ went out to the sinner as a defense for bringing the world into the church. Christ went out to be with sinners to bring them into the kingdom. He didn't act like them or allow them to influence His message... He spoke the truth and let His light shine on them. When He ate dinner with Zacheus He didn't go with Zacheus afterwards to help him collect taxes. The one place it is recorded in scripture where He got angry was when the world was brought into the House of God.

Anyway, separation... We are required to be holy and separate people. We are to be different. I didn't once say not to eat with sinners. I am saying meet them where they are and them bring them to the House of God to know what it means to be separate.

If you sit in a church service and your are not uncomfortable with your sin, then you aren't in the right church.


Great post.
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Post Kevin, Kyle Percival
perhaps it is you who "doesn't get it."

I am not trying to be offensive. I understand what you are trying to accomplish, and I appreciate the effort.

You stated something to the effect that Jesus hung out with sinners.

My take is that Jesus was so stark that it caused sinners to hang out with Him.

Just my opine.
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Post You guys are CRAZY. You took it too far with this! String Bender55
Nobody ever said to use the lyrics written by the people who did the songs if they were used in Church. I SAID MUSIC! Music is those little black notes on lines on white paper that are sectioned off in to measures with Key signatures and time signatures and notations to tell you how loud, or how soft to play and when to rest.

The Lyrics are just "hitchin a ride" (sounds like a song there) on the music.

Music
Music
Music

Now, here are some examples of what I mean.
My old band did quite a few secular songs with CHRISTIAN Lyrics.

Amazing Grace (Sang to House of the rising sun)
When the saints go marching in (Sang to I saw her standing there)
Spirit in the Sky (One small lyric change)
Jumpin Jack Flash (The whole songs lyrics were changed on this one)
Money (With NO lyrics, done for offering)
Try a little Kindness (No lyric change was needed)
He ain't heavy, he's my brother (Also no change)

Nobody and I mean NOBODY would ever expect you to use vulgar or explicit lyrics in a Church service.

Come on now, use some COMMON sense!

With all love and kindness towards narrow minded people.
SB55
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Post i agree Charlie Metz
Quote:
You keep saying this, in reference to music. How about other things? Like that Internet that you are on. You know that 60% of all web pages are sexual in content? Why not be a separationist on the Internet issue? Is it because we view church and home on 2 different levels of holiness. We can watch the show Heroes at home, but don't dare talk about magic at church. Listen to the same music we are talking about here all day, over the Muzak system at work, but don't you dare put any of that in my church. Maybe the mantra should be "What happens at Home stays at home." Or more appropriately, "What happens at church, stays at church." It's time we stop separating the two and realize that we do live IN this world, let grab culture by the horns and use it to our advantage.


So, I agree with you on some points here. Separation...not just in music at church but at home as well. I didn't want to open this new can of worms but you just did...my family doesnt listen to secular music at home. We dont watch TV shows that are offensive. We actually limit the amount of time that our TV is on. I monitor the places my children go, I even censor what they read and do. I engage with their friends and their friends families. I live a life of example...I am not perfect by any means... I am far from perfect and I stumble. However, I pray for strength and guidance in trying to be like Christ in perfection. Unfortunately, I am human and I cannot be perfect like Him, but that doesnt mean I throw out the strive for perfection because I am not perfect.

I am not sure why people think to engage you have to be a participant in their activities. That is where the rub is. I have plenty of testimony where I have led people to Christ because of the light they have seen in my life. They ask me to do this or that and I choose not to. Is that not engaging? To some more than likely yes. However, by obeying scripture and being separate has allowed my testimony to be bright enough for them to see that I have something different and they wanted some of what I had.

Lastly, music, or anything else, in church that comes from the world to me is a little more sensitive. The church is to be a place of collective worship to the Almighty God. We are to be in one accord praising God. How can you do that as one voice while singing a rock song about something in the world? How can you worship God while humming Living on a Prayer or Money or any other secular song? Where is the awe and reverence for God? Isnt it bad enough that we already are imperfect pots trying to find God that we have to introduce more garbage in our pursuit for pure worship? Where does the slippery slope end? So, how do you judge what song to play? What about if it "makes a good point" and "engages" someone then later in the song, another verse talks about a worldly event or blurts out a cuss word or take God's name in vain? When do you stop it? By the way, does anyone believe you can mock God or take His name in vain anymore? hello? Where is the respect for His house and His people? Where is the awe? Or, is God just our buddy?
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Post Re: Kevin, KevinLloyd
Kyle Percival wrote:
perhaps it is you who "doesn't get it."


How do I not get it?
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Post Re: Come on now... String Bender55
Political_Pastor wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, separation... We are required to be holy and separate people. We are to be different.


You keep saying this, in reference to music. How about other things? Like that Internet that you are on. You know that 60% of all web pages are sexual in content? Why not be a separationist on the Internet issue? Is it because we view church and home on 2 different levels of holiness. We can watch the show Heroes at home, but don't dare talk about magic at church. Listen to the same music we are talking about here all day, over the Muzak system at work, but don't you dare put any of that in my church. Maybe the mantra should be "What happens at Home stays at home." Or more appropriately, "What happens at church, stays at church." It's time we stop separating the two and realize that we do live IN this world, let grab culture by the horns and use it to our advantage.


If the Internet is a sin, then we are all going to Hell. I don't know about you, but the only time I want to go to Hell is when I go fishing in Hell, The Hell lake has the best fish. Hell, Michigan that is.
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Post Re: I still dont get it idontplaygolf
COGCharlie wrote:
How do you preach holiness? How do you preach sanctification and separation? How do you preach being a light to the world or salt of the earth? How can you be like the world yet maintain your christian testimony? The ends do not justify the means. You cant compromise your message and expect people to someday "get it right" and all of the sudden have an epiphany ah ha moment and change their actions. How long do you wait? When do you tell them about santification and holiness? What is the prescribed waiting period beore you tell them they should act different? When do you tell them that their is a lif of holiness that must lead?

It is more than just engaging with someone...I do that in my work everyday. I am in sales, I engage with people all day everyday. It is a people business. However, I sell anything to anyone and I can tell you now that you dont sell salvation... I dont care how you package it.

There comes a time when you have wonder about the wide path and the


narrow path. Be careful.


COGCHARLIE

I would like to give you a big fat AMEN!!! It's refreshing to see another actual Pentecostal on here.
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Post Re: You guys are CRAZY. You took it too far with this! Telecaster
String Bender55 wrote:
Nobody ever said to use the lyrics written by the people who did the songs if they were used in Church. I SAID MUSIC! Music is those little black notes on lines on white paper that are sectioned off in to measures with Key signatures and time signatures and notations to tell you how loud, or how soft to play and when to rest.

The Lyrics are just "hitchin a ride" (sounds like a song there) on the music.

Music
Music
Music

Now, here are some examples of what I mean.
My old band did quite a few secular songs with CHRISTIAN Lyrics.

Amazing Grace (Sang to House of the rising sun)
When the saints go marching in (Sang to I saw her standing there)
Spirit in the Sky (One small lyric change)
Jumpin Jack Flash (The whole songs lyrics were changed on this one)
Money (With NO lyrics, done for offering)
Try a little Kindness (No lyric change was needed)
He ain't heavy, he's my brother (Also no change)

Nobody and I mean NOBODY would ever expect you to use vulgar or explicit lyrics in a Church service.

Come on now, use some COMMON sense!

With all love and kindness towards narrow minded people.
SB55


I'm going to agree and disagree. Granted, no lyrics isn't necessarily a deal, but I always go back to the reasoning behind what we do. What's the purpose of singing Amazing Grace to House of the rising Son or anything else? The significance is the song has a good beat, people recognize it, and it promotes people to sing. AFter all, that is what we're looking for when it comes to praise and worship definitely. But just in my own mind, I'm not saying you or anyone is wrong in regards to the way you've portrayed it, but in my own mind, I think this way . . . .

Doesn't Christian music have catchy praise and worship songs that get people's attention and that people find themselves singing over and over again without intention?

Are the people singing Amazing Grace, or are the remembering a good ol time they had somewhere else doing something else with someone else?

Could the very recognition of a song by a visitor or someone in the congregation cause my witness or my passion to be misconstrued or tarnished?

Is our music in church supposed to entertainment in nature or a call to vertical worship?

Like I said, I'm not saying anything against you or anyone else who does these things, but these are the questions I ask myself and ultimately keep me from doing these things with music. Just my conviction maybe, but I just wanted to give another perspective so that you and others can see that it's not the anyone is crazy or taken anything too far.
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Post Re: Telecaster wrote: vintagefaith77
myinquringmind wrote:
Telecaster wrote
"Infusing God's house with secular songs that meanings have to derived in order to represent God"


Have you looked at the hymnal book lately. How many of the good old hymnals have meanings that have to derived. "I'm going to take a trip on a good old gospel ship." Just because the songs make you think doesnt make them bad.


yeah, how about "Jesus on the mainline, tell 'em what you want....call him up, call him up, tell him what you want." HOW DARE they take the worldly telephone and use it in the house of the Lord...BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!! Laughing
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3/1/07 1:49 pm


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