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Secular Music in Church. WWJD?
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Post Telecaster
The thing is that Jesus never said to reach people. He said to disciple them. Any circus can get a crowd folks, and I mean any circus.

By the way, sense when did God decide He was unable to get people's attention on His own?

I keep waiting on the new Bible Translation . . . The Emergent. I just hope there are more sermon builders in it like others one I've read on here. Wait, I didn't mean sermon builders . . . I meant more like Circus Schedules.

This is appauling. This is putrid. This is a gross misuse of the very words of God.
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2/27/07 11:25 pm


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Post KevinLloyd
[quote="Memory03"]
KevinLloyd wrote:
hey Kev... which of the songs are secular? l don't recognize them by the titles?


Sorry. The only one that's secular is "How To Save A Life" by The Fray.
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2/27/07 11:44 pm


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Post KevinLloyd
tripsD wrote:
Kevin,

That service looks awesome. It looks like you have put a lot of thought into it. Do you have any resources that you consulted to learn how to put together a complete experience like that? Books, blogs, etc?

I'm really, really impressed by the way you've woven your theme through every part of your service and I'd love to know more about it.


Thanks.

Here are some resources that I use:
- anything that willow creek puts out. they actually have a great site of youth stuff. they have some service flows on there...helps get you thinking.
- anything Newspring Church in Anderson, SC does.
- anything Elevation Church in Charlotte does.
- anything that Granger Comm Church in IN does...they are actually great at this.

Also, I really learned everything I know from my time at Stevens Creek. Specifically from Todd Sturgell. He is a master programmer. Todd really works hard and thinks through the songs/theme/etc...but also doing things to create moments. You can contact him through Stevens Creek. Also, watch everything they do...you'd be suprise how much you can learn about it from just watching.

Another BIG thing to pay attention to are your transitions. This is where most people drop the ball. Things have to flow smoothly. Doesn't matter what great elements you have...if they are mismatched or don't flow...you lose the punch.

If you ever want to talk...just let me know.
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2/27/07 11:49 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
KevinLloyd wrote:
If you ever want to talk...just let me know.

Thanks Kevin, I appreciate that!
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2/27/07 11:53 pm


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Post Re: I still dont get it KevinLloyd
Raised COG wrote:
COGCharlie wrote:
How do you preach holiness? How do you preach sanctification and separation? How do you preach being a light to the world or salt of the earth? How can you be like the world yet maintain your christian testimony? The ends do not justify the means. You cant compromise your message and expect people to someday "get it right" and all of the sudden have an epiphany ah ha moment and change their actions. How long do you wait? When do you tell them about santification and holiness? What is the prescribed waiting period beore you tell them they should act different? When do you tell them that their is a lif of holiness that must lead?

It is more than just engaging with someone...I do that in my work everyday. I am in sales, I engage with people all day everyday. It is a people business. However, I sell anything to anyone and I can tell you now that you dont sell salvation... I dont care how you package it.

There comes a time when you have wonder about the wide path and the narrow path. Be careful.


My thoughts exactly! However, I think this is one of those emergent philosophies that we traditional folks will never understand or agree with!


Dude. We don't water anything down. In fact, I think I'm pretty "punch you in the throat" with it sometimes. I speak truth...but I package it differently.

And I'll ask this of you...please don't hate on something that you don't seem to really know about. I mean, I'm not on another thread that's dedicated to what choir robes are in style this season hating on choir robes.
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Post Re: Hey, Charlie KevinLloyd
rakj wrote:
Let's compare fruit. Your "holiness" gospel compared to our relevant message.
How many souls have you won to Christ in the past two years?
Our church has won over 200. We have a discipleship program that works to keep as many of them as possible.


Bro. Be careful. I'm sure you mean well...but that's kinda haughty. We don't have it "right". We just have a different mindset. Let their thoughts roll off of you...don't even listen to them.
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Post KevinLloyd
Telecaster wrote:

This is appauling. This is putrid. This is a gross misuse of the very words of God.


Now that's offensive dude. You have no idea what you are talking about. Nobody here is trying to hate on you, your culture, or how you do things. We are trying to be productive and learn from each other.

Besides, you have no clue about the "very words of God" in our context. All we are talking about is music & programming. You gotta be careful man, the reason why nobody listens to each other on here is because we act like ' idiots in how we communicate. Drop that man, don't even bring that to the table. Again, you have no clue what you are talking about.

To me, you saying this about our culture, context & communication style is the equivalent to me saying that traditional style is "outdated, irrelevant, makes God sick because you won't be current, can't reach people, etc." That would be stupid of me to say and totally wrong. Partially because I really wouldn't know what I was talking about...because I'm not in that world.

So please do us a favor and drop the "putrid, gross misuse" verbage and just say, "I just don't like it"...or better yet, don't say anything.
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Post Seriously? Pastor Gary
Telecaster wrote:
The thing is that Jesus never said to reach people. He said to disciple them.


Didn't he commission us to do both? Are we not to go into the highways and hedges (read: "places outside of the church environment") and compel them to come in?

I am not a proponent of everything I read about trendy churches, and feel that some of them go much further than I am ready to go away from tradition, but I applaud the desire to get out of the four walls (and constrained methodologies) of traditional churchianity and become all things to all men that they might by all means win some.

Questioning a method is natural, and is the historical pattern of aging movements toward new movements, but this thread keeps devolving into people challenging the very Christian witness and motive of those using new ways to proclaim ageless truth.

This, brothers, need not -- OUGHT not -- be.
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Post Re: I still dont get it Raised COG
Quote:
Dude. We don't water anything down. In fact, I think I'm pretty "punch you in the throat" with it sometimes. I speak truth...but I package it differently.

And I'll ask this of you...please don't hate on something that you don't seem to really know about. I mean, I'm not on another thread that's dedicated to what choir robes are in style this season hating on choir robes.

First of all, I prefer not to be called "Dude".

Secondly, don't you dare accuse me of "hating on something I don't seem to really know about"! In case you misread my response, I said " I think this is one of those emergent philosophies that we traditional folks will never understand or agree with". Please explain to me how that constitutes hating?

May God bless your ministry and help you with your anger!
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2/28/07 12:51 am


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Post juice box
chiming in here

I personally think that it has no place in the church Exclamation
I spoke against secular music for four years as a youth pastor (i know to some of you 4 years is nothing and probably think that i have no idea what i am talking about, but anyway) I taught and taught that you don't need to listen to secular music because the message behind the major majority is a bad one. And yes there are a few artist that have one or two songs that talk about Jesus or say something about going to heaven.
Also I always taught that no matter what kind of music that you liked you could find a true Christian artist that has the same style or sounds like the secular artist that they liked.

Quick story I think 3 years ago i had been teaching on this very subject and we went to Winterfest in TN excited expecting a move of God, which in the end happened as usual, but on Friday night the first night we were there I think it was Masters commission came out. They are always awesome and have always loved the ministry. They used a secular song for a drama that really made no sense and left NO HOPE AT THE END Shocked Exclamation Confused and to this day I still have no clue why they need to do that I had teens say why are you telling us that we shouldn't listen to this when they play and use it in front of thousands of "church kids". Now that left us lowly little youth pastors stuck trying to defend Winterfest, The Church of God, and masters commission.

That is one of the main reasons y I think that it has no place in a church setting. We are to be different from the world and bringing secular music in for church just does not seem right to me.
Nd as usual that is my Juicy $.05
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Post Re: I still dont get it KevinLloyd
Raised COG wrote:
Quote:
Dude. We don't water anything down. In fact, I think I'm pretty "punch you in the throat" with it sometimes. I speak truth...but I package it differently.

And I'll ask this of you...please don't hate on something that you don't seem to really know about. I mean, I'm not on another thread that's dedicated to what choir robes are in style this season hating on choir robes.

First of all, I prefer not to be called "Dude".

Secondly, don't you dare accuse me of "hating on something I don't seem to really know about"! In case you misread my response, I said " I think this is one of those emergent philosophies that we traditional folks will never understand or agree with". Please explain to me how that constitutes hating?

May God bless your ministry and help you with your anger!


Totally my bad. I was responding to COG Charlie...not you. I quoted too much. So sorry. No anger problem here...it's nothin' but love dude.
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Post Telecaster
KevinLloyd wrote:
Telecaster wrote:

This is appauling. This is putrid. This is a gross misuse of the very words of God.


Now that's offensive dude. You have no idea what you are talking about. Nobody here is trying to hate on you, your culture, or how you do things. We are trying to be productive and learn from each other.

Besides, you have no clue about the "very words of God" in our context. All we are talking about is music & programming. You gotta be careful man, the reason why nobody listens to each other on here is because we act like ' idiots in how we communicate. Drop that man, don't even bring that to the table. Again, you have no clue what you are talking about.

To me, you saying this about our culture, context & communication style is the equivalent to me saying that traditional style is "outdated, irrelevant, makes God sick because you won't be current, can't reach people, etc." That would be stupid of me to say and totally wrong. Partially because I really wouldn't know what I was talking about...because I'm not in that world.

So please do us a favor and drop the "putrid, gross misuse" verbage and just say, "I just don't like it"...or better yet, don't say anything.


Well call it stupid if you like, but I won't drop it. Infusing God's house with secular songs that meanings have to derived in order to represent God, or better yet playing secular songs for the sake of playing them is a gross misuse of God's house. I won't back off of that. The entire Word of God speaks of coming out from among the world and being seperate. While I appreciate your passion, I can not and will not stand with this new movement that desires to allow culture to have a voice in the house of God. We are to transform society, not allow society to transform us.

I'm not proposing we abandon technology or video or anything of the sort. I am saying however that if we're not careful, we'll find ourselves as the Israelites of the OT did. They brought culture and society into their religious practices constantly and it always turned out the same. The focus got off of God and got on being entertained and hearing something pleasant. The Word speaks more of God's judgment than God's love, and while speaking of God's judgment is definitely a warning which can be interpretted as love, we can't mistake what God has adorned Himself to be about. He's about being seperate and holy.

This movement is great at getting crowds, but it lacks the ability to create contagious, spiritually deep Christians with a foundation that doesn't exist of emotion.

As for me not knowing what I'm talking about, I spent a few years ministering in a situation of what you speak of and I've seen what this kind of teaching does to people. So you should ask before you assume that someone doesn't "have a clue" what they are talking about. I've got more of a clue that you can imagine.
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Post Re: Seriously? Telecaster
Pastor Gary wrote:
Telecaster wrote:
The thing is that Jesus never said to reach people. He said to disciple them.


Didn't he commission us to do both? Are we not to go into the highways and hedges (read: "places outside of the church environment") and compel them to come in?

I am not a proponent of everything I read about trendy churches, and feel that some of them go much further than I am ready to go away from tradition, but I applaud the desire to get out of the four walls (and constrained methodologies) of traditional churchianity and become all things to all men that they might by all means win some.

Questioning a method is natural, and is the historical pattern of aging movements toward new movements, but this thread keeps devolving into people challenging the very Christian witness and motive of those using new ways to proclaim ageless truth.

This, brothers, need not -- OUGHT not -- be.


Yes we are to reach, but it doesn't stop there. Christ never took us off the hook after just getting them to church. There's always that "create disciples," "teaching them whatsoever you have seen," and more and more.

I applaud getting out of the four walls. I applaud using media and video and worship to bring people into God's presence, but as I've stated, I cannot applaud a blatant attempt and/or intent to allow society to in some way show it can lead people to the truth of God's holiness. After all, that's what the New Age doctrine preaches, . . . we're all gods and everyone can find his own path to eternity.

You say this kind of talk is challenging the Christian witness and so forth. Well it does, and will continue. This OUGHT to be. If the shoe fits where it, but Jesus spoke of false teachings and doctrines that would arise in the last days that would promise to show the way but would deceive many. He also speaks of those who did good works, healed the sick, and performed miracles in which he will respond that He doesn't know them. Now I'm not accusing or judging individuals here, but I am juding a movement. If you feel like you can't seperate the two, then that's your opinion. Jesus was speaking about someone and who it is remains to be seen.

By the way, I'm not all for tradition and I incorporate a lot of things into messages and so forth. But I can not and will not stand for bringing secular music in to substitue for the praise and worship of God or to cheapen any act mandated by God in the scriptures.
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Post KevinLloyd
Telecaster wrote:

This movement is great at getting crowds, but it lacks the ability to create contagious, spiritually deep Christians with a foundation that doesn't exist of emotion.

As for me not knowing what I'm talking about, I spent a few years ministering in a situation of what you speak of and I've seen what this kind of teaching does to people. So you should ask before you assume that someone doesn't "have a clue" what they are talking about. I've got more of a clue that you can imagine.


No, I'm sorry for what sounds like a bad experience...but if you have never been in church where real life change was happening and programming was done this way (as it sounds like you weren't) then you can't speak w/ authority on it.

The reason that I assume that is because for those of us who are in this style right now & seeing lots of fruit from it, it doesn't make sense why anyone would slam it. And again, we're not slamming on your style or traditional or any other style.

And besides that, it's more than style, it's evolution/relevance. Bottom line is that what worked 10 years ago isn't going to work today. What works today isn't going to work in 10 years. To me, I just see this huge fear to change... and that may be why people think church is outdated?

Plus, not playing secular music in church? Whatever. We're going to do. You're not. Your arguments mean nothing to me. Mine mean nothing to you.
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Post Telecaster
KevinLloyd wrote:
Telecaster wrote:

This movement is great at getting crowds, but it lacks the ability to create contagious, spiritually deep Christians with a foundation that doesn't exist of emotion.

As for me not knowing what I'm talking about, I spent a few years ministering in a situation of what you speak of and I've seen what this kind of teaching does to people. So you should ask before you assume that someone doesn't "have a clue" what they are talking about. I've got more of a clue that you can imagine.


No, I'm sorry for what sounds like a bad experience...but if you have never been in church where real life change was happening and programming was done this way (as it sounds like you weren't) then you can't speak w/ authority on it.

The reason that I assume that is because for those of us who are in this style right now & seeing lots of fruit from it, it doesn't make sense why anyone would slam it. And again, we're not slamming on your style or traditional or any other style.

And besides that, it's more than style, it's evolution/relevance. Bottom line is that what worked 10 years ago isn't going to work today. What works today isn't going to work in 10 years. To me, I just see this huge fear to change... and that may be why people think church is outdated?

Plus, not playing secular music in church? Whatever. We're going to do. You're not. Your arguments mean nothing to me. Mine mean nothing to you.


Well I agree that what worked 10 years ago won't work today, which is why I don't use those tactics. Other churches don't, and they see growth. But for all the major ministries and all the up and coming emergent churches, it's amazing how Christianity as a whole is declining faster than ever and one of the number one reasons given for the decline is that people state the church has lost its identity. This comes from the unchurched and the lost. I can't imagine a more clearer example of a movement with no identity than the emergent one.

There's no such thing as a bad experience only. Experiences result from actions and when the actions are the same across the board, the experiences are going to be the same across the board. Oh believe me, the church grew. People came in and got saved and left two or three months later and came back and left again. We promoted good Christian armor bearers to protect the pastor as he walked to the pulpit. We promoted ushers who I nicknamed "catchers" who ran all over everyone trying to catch every person that fell out. That's another thread in itself, but if the Spirit knocks you out, He'll take care of the fall. And when He knocks you out, there isn't room for "pick them up, pick them up." John said in Revelation he fell like a dead man when He saw Christ. We had the whole catchy cliques from the pulpit and the running the ailes and getting high fives from the congregation. Remarkably the same stuff was happening in several other places.

So as you say, you don't care to hear what I've got to say and I don't care hear what you got to say in respect to the fact we won't change one another's minds.

One question I do have though . . . I thought you were "signing off Acts"?
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Post Has anyone fire-starter
tried any Nelly songs? I bet those are a real hoot in the summer when it gets hot in here, want to take off all my cl........... oh i'm sorry i got caught in the music.

anyway, how does that go over in church?
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Post Telecaster... KevinLloyd
Cool.

I do think that we may be talking about 2 different styles...I could be wrong. Sounds like the style you were in was a bit more charismatic that what I do. I'm more in the Willow, Northpoint vein. No falling out, nothing like that. I guess you can say it's much more tame. And, I wouldn't classify it as strictly "emergent". We're just a church. We hold to no labels.

As far as signing off...I talked w/ some other guys on here and they changed my mind. I still think it's childish in alot of ways. I have to limit how often I post because it's like crack...you can't get enough.
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Post Re: Has anyone KevinLloyd
fire-starter wrote:
tried any Nelly songs? I bet those are a real hoot in the summer when it gets hot in here, want to take off all my cl........... oh i'm sorry i got caught in the music.

anyway, how does that go over in church?


No, never done any Nelly.

Here's some bands I've done/seen done...
Black Eyed Peas, the Fray, Sugarland, Keith Urban, U2, Fall Out Boy, All American Rejects, Justin Timberlake, Switchfoot, Evanescence, Aerosmith. Those are just a few.

And the response. It's great. Of course some don't like it. But overall the response is great.
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2/28/07 12:03 pm


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Post Re: Has anyone Political_Pastor
fire-starter wrote:
tried any Nelly songs? I bet those are a real hoot in the summer when it gets hot in here, want to take off all my cl........... oh i'm sorry i got caught in the music.

anyway, how does that go over in church?


Actually, I'm using that song tonight, It's great when talking about True Love Waits. Just so you know.
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Post comparison *contains words not appropriate for kids* Charlie Metz
What I would like to know is if you would invite a group into your church (I cant believe this by the way) who sang songs that were awful, not just neutral to God, but were in opposition to what scripture teaches. Would it be right to tell people to do the things that they promote in their music? Let's take a look at a few of "artists" that you cited that you have heard played in "churches" somewhere in the country and See...WWJD?

Black Eyed Peas
What you gon' do with all that junk?
All that junk inside that trunk?
I'ma get, get, get, get you drunk,
Get you love drunk off my hump.
What you gon' do with all that a**?
All that a** inside them jeans?
I'ma make, make, make, make you scream
Make you scream, make you scream.
What you gon' do with all that junk?
All that junk inside that trunk?
I'ma get, get, get, get you drunk,
Get you love drunk off this hump.
What you gon' do wit all that breast?
All that breast inside that shirt?
I'ma make, make, make, make you work
Make you work, work, make you work.

Sugarland
No more, what a bore, had enough, I'm out the door
Headed for a breakdown, had it with the small town
Gonna call Lisa, gonna call Carla Sue
Now we're gonna let it roll, gonna let it rip
Gonna get us a nice room down on the strip
Not that we'll need it, there won't be any sleepin' tonight
So, now if anyone asks, not that they would
We'll be down in Mississippi and up to no good

Keith Urban
Don't you know
Nobody drinks alone
Every demon, every ghost
From your past
And every memory you've held back
Follows you home
Nobody drinks alone
You remember whiskey on your daddy's breath
So you always stick to wine
And you scared your little brother half to death
You just kept it all inside
You can hear your mama cryin'
Only now she cries for you, and

All American Rejects
I'll keep you my dirty little secret
(Dirty little secret)
Don't tell anyone or you'll be just another regret
(Just another regret, hope that you can keep it)
My dirty little secret
Who has to know
When we live such fragile lives
It's the best way we survive
I go around a time or two
Just to waste my time with you
Tell me all that you've thrown away
Find out games you don't wanna play
You are the only one that needs to know

Justin Timberlake
Go rock with me, you deserve the best
Take a few shots
Let it burn in your chest
We could ride down
Pumpin N.E.R.D. in the deck
Funny how a few words turn into sex
Play this free, joint called "brain"
Ma, take a hint
Make me suerve in the lane

Switchfoot
Sex is easier than love,
It's easier than love,
It's easier to fake and smile and brag
It's easier to leave,
It's easier to lie,
It's harder to face ourselves at night
Feeling alone,
What have we done?
What is the monster we've become?
Where is my soul? (Where is my?)
Where is my soul?

Evanescence
Long lost words whisper slowly to me
Still can't find what keeps me here
When all this time I've been so hollow inside
I know you're still there
Watching me, wanting me
I can feel you pull me down
Fearing you, loving you
I won't let you pull me down
Hunting you, I can smell you - alive
Your heart pounding in my head
Watching me, wanting me
I can feel you pull me down
Saving me, raping me, watching me
Watching me, wanting me
I can feel you pull me down
Fearing you... loving you
I won't let you pull me down

Aerosmith
Way too many examples from these guys...sorry for the explicit lyrics...
From San Antone to Marrakesh
Yeah when the night comes
Everybody gotta have flesh
You got me all soakin' wet
Flesh... the only thing that's worth the sweat
From the day that Eve did Adam
Down to Romeo and Juliet
Everybody gotta have...

Anyway, I wanted to give you an example of some of the stuff that these guys push. When we play their music in God's house then you are telling people it is ok that these people dont live up to God's standard. It is ok to go out and sin and sing about it.

To be honest, I have to wonder why you would let these kinds of people to be examples for christians. I would not attend your church and I am scared of churches like yours when it comes to my kids. I do not want them getting mixed messages. I tell them that they have to live a holy life to please God. You have to strive to holiness...not compromise with the world to try and win friends to convince them you are a cool christian... This makes me sad...
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Last edited by Charlie Metz on 3/1/07 1:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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