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As a Minister of the Gospel I can not understand drinking
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Post As a Minister of the Gospel I can not understand drinking juice box
I know that this is an on going debate on this board but I guess I need to put my juicy $.05 in.

How can a Minister, Preacher, leader in a church think that going into a bar and buying a drink or drinking a beer with a sinner is going to get them saved. Yes I know that you will probably say "well we are just being relevant" I think that is an excuse for wanting to drink and finding a way to justify it.
This is my Opinion I'm just expressing it!

how can it not hurt the witness that you have built up with probably hundreds of other people?
IMHO you will hurt more people than you can help.

So lets just say that you do this and you have an effect on the one person that you went to the bar with. He gets saved and starts coming to your church. Now what do you go everyday with him to the bar so he can get drunk while you just buy him the first one or two. Then he blows the rest of his paycheck on drinks. And you probably wouldn't want to say anything because you don't want to hurt his feelings.

I just can not justify the fact that a Minister would buy a beer for someone else. You can call me old school or whatever you want but I am only 31 years old and CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THIS?

Am I the only one who thinks this or am I alone?
some one please fill me in.
and as usual that is just my juicy $.05
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Post Memory03
nope you are not alone... there are more of us t-totalers than there are of the drunkards...
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Post I second that...... UNCbluebleeder
Drinking is incompatible with scripture and, IMHO, it's just Christians searching for rationalization to drink.

I don't even want to know how they rationalize witnessing to drug addicts and prostitutes. Shocked
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Post Travis Johnson
Ministry in bars, strip clubs, crack houses, etc... is needed. I am not going to do ministry in a strip club though. That would be a problem for me. But, I thank God for ministries like XXXChurch.com who are making intentional, strategic inroads into this industry as well as providing care for people stuck in those environments.

I feel comfortable walking into a crackhouse though it is not my favorite place to be. It breaks my heart that there are areas in my city that are forgotten wastelands, where police avoid, and where redemption is virtually an unknown. My best friend in high school was possibly the most talented all around athlete I've ever known. Today, he is unrecognizeable because of these hell holes. I'd walk in and pay a debt to any drug dealer any day for him if it meant I could get him back.

I've also done business in restaurants and picked up the tab which included alcohol. I didn't compromise my witness. In fact, I would lead the dinner meeting with prayer for our business and thank God for the friendship I was gaining. I've never touched alcohol. But, I also do not look down on non-Christians beacause they drink.

Additionally, there are legitimate Scriptural arguments from strong, evangelical theologians concerning liberty to drink without being drunk. I abstain and will always abstain. It is my personal conviction and my best understanding of Scripture. But, I am also not going to reject my Pentecostal COG brothers in Germany and Russia who drink at every meal.
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1/31/07 9:12 am


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Post juice box
Travis I am the same way that you are when you say that those ministries are needed but when someone says "yea I had do suck on the crack pipe because I wanted to get this person to come to church".
I am also the same as you I have never drank and probably never will but I also do not reject those where it is culture to drink at every meal.
But I am saying the people who think that they have to do those things to get people to like them, like go to a bar to drink with someone.
And if you pick up a tab for a non Christian that has ordered a drink at dinner i do not feel is comprising anything either.

Just the Preachers that do those kind of things intentionally
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Post philunderwood
Quote:
So lets just say that you do this and you have an effect on the one person that you went to the bar with. He gets saved and starts coming to your church. Now what do you go everyday with him to the bar so he can get drunk while you just buy him the first one or two. Then he blows the rest of his paycheck on drinks. And you probably wouldn't want to say anything because you don't want to hurt his feelings.


please do not extrapolate. it is not part of the factor. you take something and blow it out of proportion with a fantasy outcome. most sinners would not do what you propose.

Quote:
...but when someone says "yea I had do suck on the crack pipe because I wanted to get this person to come to church".


again, you are exaggerating and making things up...sensationalizing and taking what was said earlier to an extreme not even hinted at.

Quote:
But I am saying the people who think that they have to do those things to get people to like them, like go to a bar to drink with someone.


finally, it is never about being liked. it is about loving the person right where he is. it is about not saying to him or her, i will connect with you IF you will do it my way, on my terms and with my convictions. most mature people are way past wanting to be liked. if i did things to be liked, i would not be typing these words now.
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Post juice box
so if you "get where they are at" then isn't that where they are? I'm not understanding your thinking. Can you not show the Love of Christ without doing those things?

I hope I am not coming off rude that is not my intention.

Phil you used a word I had to go to dictionary.com to find out what it meant "extrapolate" Laughing that is way beyond my vocab. Very Happy

I was only giving possible scenarios, you also said that MOST sinners would not do what I said. So you are saying that there are people that would do it so I am right in that. correct?

and the being liked comment meant that you have to have someone like you to "get to where they are at". I know that people that don't like you would not go out somewhere with you. So I was talking in general people need to like you to do the things you talk about.
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Post SavetheDrama4YourMama
Just my experience...

I went to a Christian University which shall remain nameless...but (no shock here) not every student there was a Christian. I was, and my stance was very clear. I loved my friends who partied just as much as I loved the ones who worshiped beside me. We all went out together frequently but there was a line drawn. Alcohol, smoking, drugs, parties, etc. were off limits for the whole group. What they did away from us was exactly that...away from us. The catch is this... When my friend was too drunk and depressed to put one foot in front of another, she didn't go find someone at the party to love her and lead her to Christ. She called me. When another friend was terrified that she was pregnant, she asked me for the ride to CPC and if I thought God might still accept even though she'd turned her back on him. I'm all for loving the sinner and if God's called you to minister in the bars without compromising your witness, right on. The point is, there's ministry in sticking to your guns too.
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Post I see Kyle Percival
a difference in pastors and deacons in Paul's writing.


1 Timothy 3
1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

I read this to say that a bishop should not be a partaker, period. It goes on to say a deacon should not be given to much wine.

Any insight?
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Post Strong drink is RAGING!! Brenda
Who so ever is deceived there by.. is NOT wise. Proverbs 20:1

Even a sinner knows a Christian shouldn't drink.

Atleast my husband did when he was a sinner.

He was raised in an Episcopalian church and a few years after our marriage we went to a wedding for one of the family members.
The minister who performed this marriage was of this denomination. At the reception the minister was there.. he walked up to the bar at the hall and ordered a beer.. my husband was really taken back watching him drink it. He said, it don't seem right that a minister would drink any thing alcohlic.

Now.. tell me what he did was a good witness. Just the opposite to my husband.

To rescue a pig out of the pig pen you don't get down in the muck and get him..or else you will need to get rescued yourself.

The blind leading the blind, sorta thing.
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Post Re: I see Holzman
Kyle Percival wrote:
a difference in pastors and deacons in Paul's writing.


1 Timothy 3
1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

I read this to say that a bishop should not be a partaker, period. It goes on to say a deacon should not be given to much wine.

Any insight?


Good thing Im not a bishop then. Thanks for clarifying that so that the next time the preacher talks about having a drink is a sin, I can go back to this scripture and see thats only for bishops not the congregation.
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1/31/07 12:58 pm


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Post SavetheDrama4YourMama
Quote:
Good thing Im not a bishop then. Thanks for clarifying that so that the next time the preacher talks about having a drink is a sin, I can go back to this scripture and see thats only for bishops not the congregation.

LOL Try that, and then come back and tell us what happens. Laughing
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Post philunderwood
KJV 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

NIV 3 not given to drunkenness,

the intent is NOT abstinence. the word is Paroinos, which means, as the KJV says, "given" to wine, or to release control (drunkenness).

the NIV more accurately translates this.

kyle, you wrote:
Quote:
I read this to say that a bishop should not be a partaker, period. It goes on to say a deacon should not be given to much wine.


i believe you are a pastor. critical study skills would never have you making theology or decisions based purely on an english translation of an original language when the knowledge is there for the taking (study tools, greek dictionary, lexicons, etc.).

to make a belief, or a statement of belief, as you have is beneath your stature. there is no prohibition against a bishop, pastor or otherwise drinking with responsibility.

and, brenda, you wrote:
Quote:
Even a sinner knows a Christian shouldn't drink.
At least my husband did when he was a sinner.


again, a conviction based on cultural standards and not on the Word of God. the Word of God prohibits drunkenness over and over, and the wisdom of God goes further to condemn (but not prohibit) strong drink and even warn that wine can make you into someone you do not wish to be if you go too far.

that said, no one is changing their mind. i will not begin drinking today after 47 years of abstinence and y'all won't change your minds about the allowance of such activity. so why do we even talk about it?
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Post To drink or not.... spartanfan
When we look at the subject of wine in the Scriptures, we find two main words-tirosh which usually refers to grape juice in its unfermented state, the way it comes from the press as a new agricultural product, and yayin, a word with less clear meanings.
In 30 of the 38 references to tirosh in the Old Testament it is paired with grain and oil, or oil alone, as products of the harvest used for tithe and taxes, etc. Three texts (Mic 6:15; Isa 62:8; 65:Cool refer to tirosh as the product of the grape; four texts (Prov 3:10; Joel 2:24; Mic 6:15; and Hos 9:2) speak of tirosh as produced by pressing. Only one text (Hos 4:11) suggests that tirosh may produce intoxication-and this text may actually be referring to early fermentation or to the practice of mixing new and old (fermented) wine.
Thus tirosh appears to refer almost exclusively to unfermented wine or grape juice. But yayin, the other main word that the Bible uses for wine, clearly means fermented wine in most cases.
The Old Testament uses the word yayin some 140 times. Before dealing with specific texts, let's get a general overview of its use in the Bible. By my count, the Bible presents yayin in a negative light 60 times; in about 60 more cases it simply mentions it without making any value judgment, and in only 17 references does it possibly say something positive about it. Thus yayin, fermented wine, is spoken of negatively much more often that it is positively.
On the negative side, first of all, are the stories in which fermented wine produces bad results. Not many (if any) historical narratives in the Old Testament mention a beneficial outcome from the use of wine, but several end disastrously: the drunkenness of Noah (Gen 9:21); Lot (Gen 19:32-35); Nabal (1 Sam 25:36, 37); Amnon (2 Sam 13:28); Belshazzar (Dan 5:1-3); and Ahasuerus (Esth 1:1-10), for example.
Isaiah (51:21); Jeremiah (23:9); Hosea (4:11; 7:5); Joel (1:5); and Habbakuk (2:15) are among the Bible prophets who point out the ill effects, both physical and moral, which intoxicating wine produces.
Proverbs 23:29-35 describes wine's immediate physical effects (red eyes and blurred vision), its immediate social effects (strife and wounds), as well as the long-term results (woe and sorrow). Elsewhere, the book of Proverbs refers to wine as producing poverty (21:17) and violence (4:17). Isaiah adds that it deceives the mind (28:7), inflames a person, and leads to forgetfulness of God (5:11, 12).
Those texts which point to certain useful functions of wine should not be overlooked, but they should be placed in perspective. Three texts (Ps 104:15; Eccl 9:7; 10:19) mention that wine can make the heart glad and bring cheer. This indicates an awareness of the immediate physiological effects of alcohol, but these texts need to be placed along side the many other Bible statements mentioning its nonbeneficial long-term results.
Ecclesiastes 9:7 and 10:19 might superficially appear to give approval for indulging in alcohol. In a bit of ancient philosophy, Ecclesiastes 9:7 says, "Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do." RSV. It is a description of the author's search for those things that bring meaning in life. This text is pointing out that man should be content with certain common duties of life-including eating and drinking, even wine. However, the book ends with the author's finding a greater good to provide meaning in life-that man should fear God and keep His commandments. See chapter 12:13. All the other experiences in which the author tries to find meaning fade in significance beside this.
At least seven other Bible texts which appear to speak favorably of yayin do so merely by means of comparison; they are not speaking directly about wine itself. For example, the Song of Solomon uses a comparison with wine four times (1:2, 4; 4:10; and 7:9) to bring out the beloved's beauty. Hosea 14:7 uses the fragrance of wine from Lebanon as a comparison. Proverbs 9:5, 6 uses wine figuratively in talking about the "banquet of life" that wisdom provides. Amos 9:14 and Zechariah 10:7 use the merriment that wine creates as a figure of how God's people will rejoice at the time of His final victory.
Wine was also used as a drink offering in the temple service, just as we have seen that beer was used in the presentation of delayed tithe. These drink offerings were poured out beside the altar; they were not drunk by the priests.
Thus most of the texts which mention wine favorably actually use it figuratively in comparisons. A few speak of its immediate physiological effects. But by far the majority describe its detrimental results-such as wicked acts committed in connection with drinking wine. Isaiah, for example, associates wine with the taking of bribes. See Isaiah 5:22, 23. Amos combines wine with profaning sacred things. See Amos 2:8.
In summary, the writers of the Old Testament raise four indictments against drinking wine. First, they recognize its immediate adverse physical effects-redness of the eyes, blurring of vision, staggering, and drunkenness in general. Second, they recognize its long-term moral effects-various kinds of immoral and unethical behavior along with the social results of such actions. Third, they identify particular instances of such behavior and connect them with specific persons. Fourth, because of its effects, they prohibit certain classes and specific individuals from drinking any wine.
In contrast to this large negative picture, about the only positive images the Bible gives of alcohol are three texts that note alcohol can produce a state of levity (certainly a valid physiological observation). The Bible writers also occasionally use wine to draw some favorable comparisons in figures of speech. (Yet they also use wine to symbolize some unfavorable comparisons as well. See the "wine of wrath" in Psalm 75:8 and Jeremiah 25:15).
How then should we personally relate to alcohol in view of the overall picture given in the Old Testament? If one takes the whole picture into account and evaluates all the evidence, the most reasonable conclusion is that the only safe course is complete abstinence from alcohol in any form. Any preacher who advocates otherwise is directing souls into bondage and encouraging them toward the Lake of Fire.
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Post IMHO spartanfan
I guess I was hoping that the Word of God still had the power to change opinions. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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Post So you have Scripture? spartanfan
So you have Scripture to prove you having a beer with someone is better than me sharing the truth with them? I feel sorry for you - sincerely. You need real help. If you want to debate the issue Scripturally then let's have at it, but if you just want to fly off and say I think my opinion is superior then you need to "study to show yourself approved unto God". I have arrived at my position through much study of the Scriptures. If you have children, you better hope they have a pastor and teachers that can Scripturally advocate total abstinence from alcohol. Alcohol is killing our kids - 12 times as many as drug addiction. It is involved in over 60% of teenage auto deaths, 50% of rapes and 32% of child molestations and abuse. It is a drug and it is addictive and you advocate controlled usage? I have laid it out for you from the Bible and you need to carefully consider what the Word says about beer and wine. If you emerge with a bottle you risk being submerged in the Lake of Fire. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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Post Re: As a Minister of the Gospel I can not understand drinkin georgiapath
juice box wrote:
I know that this is an on going debate on this board but I guess I need to put my juicy $.05 in.

How can a Minister, Preacher, leader in a church think that going into a bar and buying a drink or drinking a beer with a sinner is going to get them saved. Yes I know that you will probably say "well we are just being relevant" I think that is an excuse for wanting to drink and finding a way to justify it.
This is my Opinion I'm just expressing it!

how can it not hurt the witness that you have built up with probably hundreds of other people?
IMHO you will hurt more people than you can help.

So lets just say that you do this and you have an effect on the one person that you went to the bar with. He gets saved and starts coming to your church. Now what do you go everyday with him to the bar so he can get drunk while you just buy him the first one or two. Then he blows the rest of his paycheck on drinks. And you probably wouldn't want to say anything because you don't want to hurt his feelings.

I just can not justify the fact that a Minister would buy a beer for someone else. You can call me old school or whatever you want but I am only 31 years old and CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THIS?

Am I the only one who thinks this or am I alone?
some one please fill me in.
and as usual that is just my juicy $.05



I agree 100%, it just plain doesn't make sense.
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1/31/07 5:43 pm


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Post Brenda
Quote:
brenda, you wrote:
Quote:
Even a sinner knows a Christian shouldn't drink.
At least my husband did when he was a sinner.


To which Phil answered:
again, a conviction based on cultural standards and not on the Word of God.

Brenda's answer:
My husband didn't have any conviction. What church up bringing he had was from the Episcopalian faith. And apparently from the pastor/ministers actions he was all fore drinking.
My husband came from a family of drinkers.. so it wasn't anything that was instilled into him to believe a minister shouldn't be drinking.
In fact he him self at the time was a drinker.
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Post philunderwood
Quote:
In fact he him self at the time was a drinker.


brenda,
with all due respect, the conviction (wherever it came from) was not based on Scripture, only a feeling.
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Post philunderwood
Quote:
If you have children, you better hope they have a pastor and teachers that can Scripturally advocate total abstinence from alcohol.


so many of our problems are borne from teaching "don't touch." i, although i am not a drinker, will advocate for wisdom and learning how to make decisions for life and honor (proactive) rather than singing the ills of sinful behavior.

we know that paul was clear to say, when the law is alive it provokes sin. i would rather teach righteousness in choices than to prohibit certain things.

as paul wrote, and i believe deeply...
"Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."
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