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Marty uncovers reason for stagnation in COG growth (L)
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Post Marty uncovers reason for stagnation in COG growth (L) MartyBaker79
Link to accompanying article http://actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=15288

For the last several months there has been an on-going discussion about why the Church of God is seeing a decline in “Holy Ghost” baptisms. There have been many theories and much fear espoused in several of the postings on this board. Many of you have given your reasons, so today I offer my reasons. I realize that when I go public with my thoughts that some of you will cringe; others of you will declare that I am liberal (what else is new?); and still others will say that I don’t have “the goods”. But, I do have the goods and I practice glossolalia on a daily basis.

The reason that the Church of God is in decline is the same reason that the practice of glossolalia is missing in the movement … WEIRDNESS. We Pentecostals have taken the beauty out of Spiritual Language and replaced it with a weird, uncomfortable, culturally offensive act that freaks the normal person out. Don’t get me wrong …. I am all for the mystical aspect of glossolalia. In fact, the culture is hungry for mystical religious experiences, but they must be genuine experiences.

Let me go deeper. How many of you have been in a service where everything is going well. God is there moving. He is touching people emotionally and then out of the blue some dear sister on the row right behind you screams like she has just seen a ghost. It is a high pitched shrill that makes you lose your breath. We have come to think that that is normal, but it’s not. If the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet, then please dear sister, don’t scream and scare me to death.

Should I go further? We Pentecostals have truly experienced liberation and freedom to the point that at times we feel as though we can run through a troop and leap over a wall, but just because we feel like doing it, is it necessary to do it in public? Running Ronnie down the center aisle freaks people out. It’s not normal church behavior. You say, “Of course it is! That’s how we do it in the COG.” Well, you are right, but your COG culturally accepted practices run people off instead of bringing them in. We are in decline because we have allowed the “campmeeting crazies” to control our meetings. It gets to be too much.

Now, if it is a genuine move of God, let it happen. I am all for that. I want it. I desire it. Too often, however, we are trying to drum up some move of yesteryear instead of a present move of God. I don’t want “OLD TIME RELIGION”. I want a TODAY move of God. Here’s the difference. When we try to re-create the past, it’s inauthentic and people realize that. People today are hungry for God’s move in their life and they can sense when it’s God and when it’s contrived.

We, in the COG, have tried to work it up one too many times. People are tired of it and they are leaving our church (the Church of God) right and left. If you want your church to grow, close the back door. Promote authentic spirituality. If God is not moving with a shout, then just be quiet and enjoy the stillness of his Spirit. Don’t try to WORK IT UP!

I know that you don’t believe me, but your people need some assurance that the service that they are bringing their lost friend to is going to spiritually energized, but it is also going to be SAFE. You think that they want spontaneity and they do to a point, but they want some predictability. If it is not a safe environment, they will not take the RISK and invite their friends. When they fail to invite their friends, the church’s evangelism ministry suffers. When a church does not have a strong evangelism ministry, the attendance will decline.

So, here’s my two cents. The Church of God is in decline because, first of all, because we do not have an evangelism strategy and secondly, we have allowed the “campmeeting crazies” to run our services. In short we have the form of godliness, but not the power of God.

Whew, now that I’ve gotten that off my chest, I can go on about my day.

--- Marty
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Post Well, now Marty... Phil Hoover
You have certainly hit a home run with this post.

Even as a tongue-talking Pentecostal, I've often been afraid to invite my unbelieving friends to church, when I wasn't sure what weird thing would happen during the worship service.

I have no problem with the "real power" of the Spirit being manifested among us, when we gather. The REAL POWER will bring the love of God, the conviction of sin, and make God real to all who are gathered. The real demonstration of the Holy Ghost will rarely (if ever) drive people away confused, and frightened. If that does happen, it is the exception, not the rule.

What I long to see among those of us who are Pentecostals is the "working of the Spirit" outside of the local congregation gathered on Sundays and midweek services.

As far as tongues, Jack Hayford wrote a marvelous book The Beauty of Spiritual Language and I would highly recommend it to EVERYONE.

Spirit-baptism is given as "power for service"--and we've often mistaken it for "spiritual maturity." Spiritual maturity comes over time, and is a life-long goal of discipleship for the Christ-follower.

Thanks for sharing your heart, Marty. I admire you.


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Post Kirk Franklin stated it best... Jamie Noel
in his new cd. He said, "the church taught me how shout and how to speak in tongues. But, preacher teach me how to live when the tongue is done."

That, Marty, is the cry of our formerly churched young people.
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Post Yo Dude Uncovers the Reason for COG Decline... Yo Dude
I very much disagree, my good brother Marty. I think you have definitely touched on an area we need to deal with in our local churches, but the reason for our decline is something else, I believe.

In fact, I think the reason for our decline is the fact that we have tried to pasteurize Pentecost! Now, I know exactly how you feel, Marty. We both probably have good educations, are perhaps a bit more sophisticated in some ways than some of the old-fashioned types, etc., and we can cringe when we see them put on a display that will surely make our colleages uncomfortable.

But what happens is we wind up with a "toned down" church service that, while it is aethetically pleasing, so to speak--no twanging guitars, no nasal singing, no beehive hairdos--is also somewhat sterile.

Oh, we can get plenty of motion and emotion going (see The Ramp), but THAT is not the anointing. It is no doubt sincere and heartfelt, but the anointing is something above and apart. Of course, you know this already.

When the COG began to seek to become more "acceptable" to the mainstream, so that we could attract new people, we did some important things. We relaxed the dress code and so forth. But we also lost some of our Holy Ghost mojo, if you know what I mean.

We want a Joel Osteen type of service--and indeed it will attract thousands if done right. And I have no doubt that Bro. Joel does a good job at what he does--I know the music is on fire.

But I can tell you this assuredly, it is with thirsty ear and a hungry heart that I long to see again what USED to happen at our Campmeetings! When the power of God would sweep over us like wind across a field of wheat! Where the power of God came down in the singing--not because of the rockin' music and lights and graphics, but because the Holy Ghost was in it!

And when have you last heard preaching like RHH? The only man on the national stage that preaches near those levels is T.D. Jakes. When's the last time people in the audience wept as the man of God preaches?

That all began to be left behind in our effort to become a bit more acceptable to someone besides the uneducated and poor that the COG often seemed to attract.

As Jesus said, "This ye ought to have done, and no left the other undone." We OUGHT to reach out to the educated and the sophisticated and the post-modern, but do it with full-bore anointing.

The anointing can cross the post-modern divide, just as it can cross the heathen, infidel, Muslim, Buddhist, and every other divide. Yes, I love the new music--play it every week. And I'm not advocating we just stick with the Red Back Hymnal. I AM saying, however, that perhaps, just maybe, we have gotten a bit ashamed of who we are and where we came from...and because of that, we have gradually grown apart from the things that used to make such a difference.

Yes, I know we can go deeper. Yes, I know there's a lot of junk. But there was also a lot of dedication and faithfulness, the ability to pray through and breakthrough, the spiritual energy to outlast the devil, and so forth.

I don't know how to solve the matter. But I know the Holy Ghost does. And so it starts by getting HIM to come into our midst with no preconditions, no requirements that He check "the weird stuff" at the door, no concerns that He might do something that is out of our comfort zone. We just say, "Come, Holy Spirit, we NEED Thee!"

As long as we have an "ideal" that limits the Holy One of Israel, that says, "God you are welcome here, but keep that outrageous stuff at home," we are in danger, I think, of eventually becoming (if we aren't already) Pentecostal-lite. Only accepting and allowing what works with our program. But God knows what He is doing. And if He wants to rock the place a whole new way (or a whole OLD way), then lets get on board!

Very simply, there is a difference between being OUT OF ORDER and simply being exercised in a unique way by the Holy Spirit. We should indeed try to teach discernment to our people. But at the same time, we must discern that we must invite Jesus in no matter what He may wish to do. No couches He can't sit on. No rooms He can't enter. No places He can't go.

No, I don't know if we'll have the same crowds, but we'll have PENTECOST. And I'd rather have that than to be the king of a vast domain....
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Post Louis Morgan
I'm not saying yea or nay to this because I have strong feelings for both perspectives (if that is possible). I long for a genuine move of God, and if that is running up and down the aisles, then that is what I want to see. But, I'm tired of seeing services operate according to a "formula" and going through motions when it is seems out of place. Sometimes I feel as if we are trying to replicate a past move of God in some of our worship. There are times when I've wondered if God is still operating in that manner, but I've decided there is room for all of the types of worship b/c people are different. Some people like the guitars, nasal twang, and beehives. Others like the orchestra, liturgy, and dressing up. Some prefer to worship quietly while others enjoy running the backs of pews. But neither are less spiritual or Spirit-filled. It is all about style preferences.

That is why I believe we need to embrace diversity in the COG and not try to label some churches as hot/cold or liberal/conservative. Individuals can be aligned with the Word and still have different preferences about styles of worship, faith, and practice.

However, while reading this I couldn't help but wonder... what was the worship like for those on the Day of Pentecost? I wonder if they quaked, jerked, and rolled on the floor? I'm not making fun here, but asking a real heart-felt question.
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Post Good subject Bill Kinley
I think that we all can agree that we are hungry for a real move of God in our area's. I am agreeing with Marty on this one. I have had people in my church tell me that the reason that they had stopped inviting people to church was because of the total chaos that was taking place under the disguise of the "move of the Spirit."

A true move of God is about conviction and repentance. It is us realizing that we are absolutely nothing and He is EVERYTHING. The Holy Spirit has never been the focus of a true move of God. Even on the Day of Pentecost, the focus was on Jesus Christ. 3000+ was changed. Jesus even said in John 16:14, that the Holy Spirit would glorify Him(Jesus). The Holy Spirit convicts us to bring us into position with God to be used by God. This standing up and showing off the gifts of tongues and then turning around after church and ripping someone apart with the same tongue is not from God. What we have taken to be moves of God in some of our services have been nothing more that moves of flesh. The focus has been on individuals and not Christ.

We can set here and debate this til Jesus comes but until we as Pastors and leaders have the "fortitude" to set people down that are out of order, we will continue to have misrepresentation of the Gifts of the Spirit in our services. We will continue to have more people leaving confused and not having a true encounter with a life changing Jesus. This in my opinion is why we need to seek, pray and fast for supernatural discernment that we may be able to recognize what is a true move of God in the days that we are living in.
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Post vintagefaith77
my pastor and I were just discussing this today. We have a faction in our church that desires to worship "prophetically" with multi colored flags and 5 foot tall sticks called "mataws" (which is supposedly prophetic for the O.T. staff) Rolling Eyes . I have come to the conclusion that these people and the other "camp meeting crazy's" are distracting and glory seeking and blaming it on the Holy Spirit and I think God is waiting for some bold Pastors to take a stand and call a spade a spade. I just can't see the Holy Spirit taking the focus off of pure worship of the Son and placing the emphasis on flags, screaming, laughing, gold dust, feathers or any other flaky stuff that comes down the pike. My generation wants a mystical experience with God, but the difference is that they refuse to FAKE IT! If we don't feel God moving, we won't try to "work it up"...if something is flaky or distracting, we will tune it out or just plain stop coming. If we believe that God can still move in "power", then let's see it...not our pathetic American pentecostal version of it. I"m talking about the building shaking, shadow healing variety... Acts Enthusiast
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Post Pentecost can get "messy" stp89
I don't disagree with the comments made about fleshly manifestations. However, I disagree with a lot of the premises and conclusions I see in this thread.

I'm not an expert in church growth methodology, but I'm not just some unedumicated bumpkin either. And there are some things I have observed over the years. Contrary to popular belief, "manifestations" of the Holy Spirit do not scare people off. I believe many people are longing for such an expression of worship in a church service.

I admit I could be wrong, but I believe people visit our (Pentecostal) churches with an understanding that something "weird" might happen. I think they are often disappointed when they leave and see that nothing is different than the Baptist church down the street (3 point sermon and a few hymns).

I think we pastors definitely need to deal with people who are truly out of order and continue to show attitudes of rebellion, carnality, and selfishness. But I plead with my brethren not to abandon an atmosphere of manifestations for the sake of pleasing a cynical crowd. Some of the most thriving churches around would be considered "out of order" by some of our Willow-Creek minded brethren. But people are still coming, getting saved, being discipled, and bearing much fruit for the Lord.

Isn't part of the ministry of the church of Jesus Christ driving out demons? I have yet to see this done in an "orderly" fashion Laughing
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Post I agree Louis Morgan
vintagefaith77 wrote:
My generation wants a mystical experience with God, but the difference is that they refuse to FAKE IT! If we don't feel God moving, we won't try to "work it up"...if something is flaky or distracting, we will tune it out or just plain stop coming. If we believe that God can still move in "power", then let's see it...not our pathetic American pentecostal version of it. I"m talking about the building shaking, shadow healing variety...


I agree with you, Vintage.
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Post TheoloJohn
What I find so interesting is how revealing our responses to this issue tend to be. Those who are more "old-time" say those who want to be more "progressive" are compromising Pentecost, while those who think of themselves as "cutting edge" and "progressive" condemn the old-timers of just being "weird." Bottom line is, everybody tends to try to justify their own philosophy while criticizing and condemning that of others.

I think it's safe to say that most of the services at Azusa Street (and Pentecost in general up until the 1970s) would quite likely raise the hair on the neck of every "progressive" person's neck today, but it cannot be doubted that they were effective at reaching their generation, as weird and spooky as they may have seemed.

As Jesus said, "Wisdom is justified of all her children."
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Post Seeking power in action Louis Morgan
I can agree with you as well, TheoloJohn. As stated earlier, I don't think it has to be an either/or situation, but I do believe that much of contemporary Pentecostalism is out of order and unbalanced. I grew up in a church where I have seen just about every type of manifestation imaginable. And I know that some of it was genuine and some of it was flesh.

I also believe there was some flesh at Azusa Street too. Yes, a great movement was birthed from those services and the power of God was there without doubt, but I believe that there was some things going on there that was out of order as well. It doesn't discredit the movement, but it doesn't make the disorder correct either. What I would like to see us get back to is the type of humility exemplified by Seymour when he was praying with his head in a crate and seeking God.

Perhaps we have become desensitized to the move of the Holy Spirit; I am uncertain. But I do know that it is different today. I hear this over and over-- even from the "old-timers". I, too, get tired of sitting in churches that seem to be going through the motions without the same power present. And we can shout all day long in our churches, but what are we doing outside of those walls? I think that is the question that my age group is asking and what they are wanting to see-- the Holy Spirit power in action in the world.
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Post Re: Pentecost can get "messy" Dave Dorsey
stp89 wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, "manifestations" of the Holy Spirit do not scare people off. I believe many people are longing for such an expression of worship in a church service.

Authentic manifestations of the Holy Spirit don't scare people off. Sometimes we have tongues and interpretations and prophecies in our services and they are, for lack of a better word, completely normal. They're peaceful and edifying, they're not weird and they're not flaky. They're authentic manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit.

And at other times we have "manifestations" that are so icy and uncomfortable that all I can do is cringe and pray that God help me not despise prophecyings, just in case.

I don't think anyone's saying we should quench the Holy Spirit and see that we don't have any manifestations in our services. I hope not, at least. Those truly do draw people to Jesus Christ.

But I also don't think anyone can deny that some of the things people do in the name of flowing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit are extremely weird and fleshly, and that our services would be far better and far more Christ-centered without them.

My two cents, anyway.
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Post vintagefaith77
i don't think the old timers are "weird"...I think the REAL ole timers are the ones who actually got it right. Some of the best memories in my life was being a child/teenager and kneeling around an old altar (when we actually had altars) and having an old saint of the church praying for me. There was no flesh or hype involved...just a person who sincerely cared about me and wanted me to experience the same Holy Spirit that they experience. I miss some of the ole time Pentecostal services sometimes...where we put our schedules aside and just sought the face of God and whatever happened, happened. If visitors got freaked out, then so be it...God is scary sometimes and when He moves in a genuine way, the unitiated probably should be scared.

Acts 5 describes a true move of the Spirit...people were dying, signs and wonders were taking place and "great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard these things." I think that is the missing ingredient in the modern Pentecostal churches. We are trying to have a move of the Spirit without the fear of the Lord and it has become a mockery. It's a mockery because it's not the Spirit that's moving, it's US and the church and the world can see right through it. When God actually moves, it takes your breath away and you don't have to question whether or not it's flesh or genuine. And the most obvious way you can tell if the Spirit is really moving is that we will be held in "high esteem and more than ever believers will be added to the Lord, multitudes of men and women..." (my paraphrase of Acts 5:13-14). We say we're a Spirit filled church? Ok, then let's pray for the fear of the Lord to sweep our congregations...let's have a ole time revival where the community holds us in high esteem because even they can see that God is at work among us. And most importantly, lets see MULTITUDES AND MULTITUDES of men/women and young people added to the Kingdom of God! That's a real revival and I long to see it in my lifetime!!!
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Post COG Decline Tracy S Hamilton
This is an interesting post. I will say that I agree with Marty as to the possibilities of why many say we are in decline in being "Pentecostal".

As we have gone through some of the posts we are seeing and reading various opinions on what we think is happening to our church. Some truly long for the "good ole days" when the "camp meeting crazies" would just go off at any time. I for one was one of those who didn't want to invite anyone to church because of what I thought might happen. Even if I did try to explain it, let's be real, I could not have given a real good explanation at that time.

I really couldn't give you a good one now over some of the things that happened. That being said, I do want to see God's power move more than ever before in my life and our church. I do believe that we ARE seeing God's power move, we are just not seeing it like we used to.

So I think that many of us who grew up COG must re-define what we mean when we say that "we want to see the power of God move in our services". That for me is seeing lives changed, marriages restored, relationships healed, and people making a difference. Many Cog's would not declare those previous stated items as the "power of God movin".

I would beg to differ. Jesus said that the WORLD would know that we belong to Him if we have love one for another. He did NOT say the world would know that we are His if we speak in tongues (which I do), shout, run the isles, fall out, roll on the floor, or scream to the top of our lungs.

But for many growing up COG or pentecostal those things were the manifestation to the world that "we belonged to Jesus."

I believe in days gone by, the move of God in many of our churches, (as described above) was possibly relevant to our times. But not anymore. ( I don't think it was then, but I will give the benefit of the doubt).

My grandmother was as pentecostal as you could get. Danced under God's power while holding two babies. She was one of those who, when she gave a message in tongues, everyone KNEW it was of God. It was never generic..... "Yea, I am a good God, and desire to do good things for your life".......kind of message.

But I believe if she were alive today she would love our church. Why? Because of the lives that are being changed by the "power of God."

She would be the first to say......"It's not about me. Win the lost at any cost."



Be blessed,

Tracy
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Post philunderwood
Hebrews 1. 1 Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2 And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. 3 The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven.

i do not think that it is an either/or, i think it is a was/is.

God, more than any of us, knows what people need when they need it. he led israel very differently than he does the church. my daughter asked me about why the early part of the OT and the formation of God's community seems so intensely violent. i said, and i believe, God had to separate his people from a pagan environment and it took a holy brand on his people to do that.

i believe that had it not been for the reissue of pentecost in the late 19th and early 20th century, evangelical christianity might have been lost. the passion and zeal of our pentecostal forefathers like earl paulk, h.r. appling, a.v, beaube and others kept hope alive.

later, the revivalists of the 50's broke cultural barriers and took pentecostalism to the streets instead of just staying across the tracks. the showy campmeeting services of the 60s and 70s were the tail end of a movement. the charismatic renewal of the 60s and 70's repositioned the power modules of pentecostalism to a broader experience base.

God was moving differently...and he still is. we do not need the emotional eruptions for God to be seen and known today. he knows better than us how to speak to this generation. he is using a different brush stroke. the interesting thing is this... for all the supposed power of those campmeeting experiences and their obvious results in our lives, more people are getting saved and coming to know Jesus (the actual result of HS baptism's focus) today in the churches that speak the language of the people (as happened on the day of pentecost) than at any other time.

it might not look like it but it is true. why does it not look like it? because there are so few churches doing this in proportion to the number of churches that exist in this country. but in those churches that have asked God to baptize them in boldness to speak and wisdown to communicate to and in this culture, God is moving extraordinarily.

our problem is that most churches are dead...even those that shout. what we need is alive churches that understand God speaks in different ways at different times. once, by prophets, now by his Son! it was one way, now it IS another. the Spirit is still real, present and powerful...but he is moving differently.
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Post idontplaygolf
Well Marty,

This form of church that is being spoken of, the kind that is supposed to be safe to bring your unchurched friends and family to, well, let me ask a question? Would being safe send a man to be crucified? Did being safe get Paul beheaded? Peter crucified upside down? Stephen stoned? What about the church in China? Are there services safe?

I have been in so many services when I was just waiting for Running
Ronnie to hit the aisles. I'm a youth pastor. Look at what our young people are facing today. They need something more than a feel good sermon preprinted on the church bulletin. Small groups and coffee shops in our churches aren't going to win our communities. Yeah, you can pack a building, refuse to wear suits, let your church call you by your first name, all that stuff, and it's not wrong, but where is the power?

We are fighting more devils today than ever before. By the way, it was those "campmeeting crazies" that had rocks thrown through their windows and their churches burned down so we could have what we have today. How disrespectful can we be?
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Post Re: Marty uncovers the reason for the COG decline idontplaygolf
MartyBaker79 wrote:
Running Ronnie down the center aisle freaks people out. It’s not normal church behavior.

--- Marty


Hey man, you said it, we didn't. If it's not normal in your church why don't you let the dove loose.
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Post wondering childofgod818
i'm disturbed by this thread. How can you attack people who let the lord move freely on them. whats the shame and harm in that. I grew up in a church where it was "normal" for someone to run down the aisles and for women to scream out in the pew behind me. I praise God for such a heritage as that!!! It seems to me that people are more worried about being dignified than letting the Lord move freely in their churches.....just some thoughts Rolling Eyes New Member
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Post Jamie Noel
idontplaygolf wrote:
Yeah, you can pack a building, refuse to wear suits, let your church call you by your first name, all that stuff, and it's not wrong, but where is the power?


To make a statement like this is spoken totally out of ignorance. I am not calling you stupid, but ignorant. How does anyone have the gall to say that just because a church is using creative ways to present the gospel and relate a little better to the communities around them, they do not have the power of the Holy Spirit in church? Get down off of your high horse and look at the life of Jesus. He did the unthinkable. He touched the untouchables. He changed his ministry style to relate to the culture around him. The only time he screamed or raised his voice was at the religious leaders.

One way is not better than the other. I grew up in "old time pentecost." I would not trade it for anything in the world. But to be quite honest, I don't want to go back. To imply that the HS is not evident because churches like mine have coffee tables and I do not wear a suit is absolutely absurd.

The church is a table where people come to get fed. It is up to us as pastors to set the table and present the gospel with creativity and innovation, just like a fine restaurant. I don't want my church to be labeled McDonalds just to keep my heritage. I want to offer some fine dining and create something that people want to come back to.

I've said enough.
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1/30/07 8:49 am


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Post Totally different viewpoint here about decline Far From Cleveland
I'm not too sure about all the numbers of "decline". Where I serve we are growing & striving for more growth. I respect those (like Marty & others) who have these great insights, but my viewpoint is a little different.

For sake of discussion, here is a possible reason some churches are not growing while others are even closing:

Lack of shepherds' hearts in the body

After 6 years of pastoring it amazes me that those who know my heart & trust my integrity are willing to trust my leadership, even if they are not completely on board with my Pentecostal doctrines or whatever other topic we discuss.

People need to trust people, then they'll run the aisle with you or sit quietly in the pew if that is the type of direction you give to the people you are shepherding. As for guests, if someone in your church experiences life changing relationship with God, those that come with them will be hungry for whatever the church offers...crazy or calm.

I truly believe that pastors need to teach, train & equip people to have the heart of a shepherd. Right now too many churches put all their "eggs in one basket" -- with that basket being the pastor. When there is a struggle or change at that level, the church suffers.

We pastors must raise up a generation of true shepherds. Then our churches will grow again. Some will have "campmeeting crazies" while others with stay "Methodist calm". But the relationships built in the body will build the church.
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1/30/07 9:20 am


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