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Pre-trib rapture proof.
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Post ChurchAhMahGod
1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When is the "last trump"?

Rev 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Pretty cut and dry to me.
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1/31/07 2:03 pm


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Post And your position is? whocansatisfy
ChurchAhMahGod wrote:
1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When is the "last trump"?

Rev 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Pretty cut and dry to me.


You have made an attempt to define that the last trump of I Cor is but have not stated what your position is. Are you pre, mid, or post trib and why?

Also, if you are claiming that these trumpets are the same, you have a problem with Matt 24 also which refers to a trumpet at the end of all these events in Rev. Notice if you will that this 7th trumpet is no where near the end of tribulation on earth as the vials have yet to be poured out.
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Post Re: And your position is? Link
whocansatisfy wrote:
[Also, if you are claiming that these trumpets are the same, you have a problem with Matt 24 also which refers to a trumpet at the end of all these events in Rev. Notice if you will that this 7th trumpet is no where near the end of tribulation on earth as the vials have yet to be poured out.



Maybe he does not see the events of Revelation as completely chronological, but sees the trumpet passage as starting early in the timeline in Revelation and ending at the end of it.
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whocansatisfy wrote
Quote:

If He is talking to them about the end-times, His reference is to temple worship. I don't see how this is so unclear. Since when do we worship in the temple? When has the church ever practiced Judaism?


You need to read the book of Acts. The church practiced Judaism, much if not most of it anyway, until Acts 15. Probably until chapter 28, the church was mostly Jewish and practiced Judaism.

Where did the Jerusalem church have their gatherings? The temple. Many priests were obedient to the faith. Priests sacrificed animals and burned incense.

Later in Acts, James and the elders asked Paul to accompany some men into the temple and pay their expenses to demonstrate that Paul walked according to the law and that he did not teach the Jews who lived among the Gentiles not to circumcise their children. Several Christian Jews on Jerusalem had taken a vow, probably a vow consistent with the description of the Nazarite vow. Paul had cut his head in Cenchrea for he had made a vow. He was going into the temple to pay the expenses of the other men. Maybe Paul had a Nazarite vow on him as well and was going in for a haircut.

All of this is a lot more extreme evidence of practicing Judaism than what you can show in Matthew 24. Matthew 24 talks about seeing the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place. Members of the early church went into the temple. if the temple is rebuilt, why would Jewish Christians be forbidden from entering if the apostles went in?

Jesus mentions the sabbath, and implied that there was some reason His listeners would not want to run on the sabbath day.

I still don't see how this is an argument for pre-trib. Do you think there will be a change in the Gospel at the rapture? Can you show me that there will be a change in the obligation for Jewish believers in Jesus at the rapture? Can you show me this in scripture? If you can't show a connection, then your arguments can in no way be used to support the idea that the rapture is pre-trib.


Quote:

Yet Christ's references in Matt 24 are purely Jewish in nature. You cannot believe that He is talking about end-times AND the church in light of these verses. What is clear is that He is referencing the anti-christ and the abomination of the Temple.


Sure I can. If I don't accept the Biblically-unsuported notion that the church get raptured out seven years before the Lord comes back, then I don't assume that the presence of the temple in Jerusalem is proof that the church has been raptured out.

Quote:

My point has been that if this is to include the church, why are we not practicing Judaism today?


Even though Jews in the early church practiced Judaism, the Gentiles were not required to. If you are a Gentile, you are not required to practice Judaism, and never were. There is no requirement in the OT law that Gentiles practice Judaism. There are certain things required of Gentiles as implied by the Law, but keeping kosher and all the rituals of the temple were not.

Jesus immediate audience in Matthew 24 are those who would make up members of both the church and Israel after His ascension.

It is clear that Jesus is referring to it, yet you want us to believe that He's talking about the church going through these things. It just doesn't add up in my book.
[/quote]

I don't have time to go into detail about how the "church age," is separate from the tribulational saints. Yes, the 144,000 will "evangelize" the world. Yes, they will convert Jews and Gentiles alike. This does not make them a part of the church as we know it for they did not "believe" beforehand making them worthy to escape. They will be guilty of using hindsight, not for-sight. Jesus told Thomas that he saw and believed, but blessed are those who have not seen and still believe. I believe this has something to do with this whole issue. The church, (body of Christ) that started on the day of Pentecost, believed by faith. Except for the early Christians that were there and witnessed these events, the majority of the Church has not seen Christ but have believed anyway. For their righteousness BY faith they will be accounted worthy to escape the final 7 years of judgment. (Or at least 3 1/2)

Once these things that have been prophesied for centuries begin to fall in place, it will open the eyes of many who did not believe. Thousands will turn to Christ, but it will cost many of them their lives. 144,000 Jews will be sealed from these events, but not everyone else. The gospel will continue to be preached and their day of deliverance will come when they die or Christ comes back. The problem some have is mixing these two groups and events together. I think Paul and Christ made the differences clear.

who can satisfy wrote
Quote:

I don't have time to go into detail about how the "church age," is separate from the tribulational saints. Yes, the 144,000 will "evangelize" the world. Yes, they will convert Jews and Gentiles alike.


If you believe the 144k will evangelize the earth, you have to let go of the idea that Matthew 24 is ONLY about Israel, because if there will be Gentile among the 'elect', who will be gathered from one end of heaven to the other. Don't you agree?

Btw, do you think the Gentiles who convert during the tribulation will be required to keep the sabbath and worship in the temple?


Quote:

Yes, they will convert Jews and Gentiles alike. This does not make them a part of the church as we know it for they did not "believe" beforehand making them worthy to escape. They will be guilty of using hindsight, not for-sight. Jesus told Thomas that he saw and believed, but blessed are those who have not seen and still believe. I believe this has something to do with this whole issue. The church, (body of Christ) that started on the day of Pentecost, believed by faith.


Can you show scripture connectin the concept of 'blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed' with being the church. Would you say Thomas was not a part of the church since he did not believe in Christ until he saw?

Jesus said 'blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed'. He said that they were blessed, not that they were the only members of the church.

Btw, Thomas had faith, even if he saw first before he believed.

Quote:

hurch has not seen Christ but have believed anyway. For their righteousness BY faith they will be accounted worthy to escape the final 7 years of judgment. (Or at least 3 1/2)


Can you show me scripture to back this up? We escape from God's wrath. Wrath means anger. God isn't angry at those who are righteous in His sign. You seem to think of 'wrath' as a time period on the earth.
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Post Re: And your position is? whocansatisfy
Link wrote:
whocansatisfy wrote:
[Also, if you are claiming that these trumpets are the same, you have a problem with Matt 24 also which refers to a trumpet at the end of all these events in Rev. Notice if you will that this 7th trumpet is no where near the end of tribulation on earth as the vials have yet to be poured out.



Maybe he does not see the events of Revelation as completely chronological, but sees the trumpet passage as starting early in the timeline in Revelation and ending at the end of it.




Is this the best you can do? You claim you do not believe something because "maybe we do not believe the events of Revelation are chronological." Maybe you would like to explain what you believe concerning the events of Revelation. One of the things that is obvious to me is that it matters not if you view everything chronologically, the 7 trumpets in Rev happen no where near the end. (To make that claim requires a much larger jump of faith than what the pre-trib view requires.) Therefore, trying to make Paul's reference to the last trump or trump of God does not coincide with the 7 trumpets. All I have seen from your side is, we cannot find evidence for pre-trib so we don't believe it. Yet you accept references that have nothing to do with one another as though it makes your case. It's simply poor interpretation and an improper lack of rightly dividing the Word of Truth. If I am wrong about this, then show me how you come to your position.

One thing that is most clear to me is that you cannot base your belief on this subject on one or two verses that seem to be referring to the same thing. You have to take several chapters and books into consideration and compare them with one another. Daniel is such a book and can be placed withing the framework of Revelation very easily. This, along with the things spoken of by Paul and Jesus Himself, point to the church as we know it being taken away before God deals with Israel as a nation.
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Post Thank you Link for making my point. whocansatisfy
Link wrote:
"You need to read the book of Acts. The church practiced Judaism, much if not most of it anyway, until Acts 15. Probably until chapter 28, the church was mostly Jewish and practiced Judaism."

There you have it! The church no longer practices Judaism today, right? But Jesus reference in Matt 24 talks about Jewish practices just before His coming. Now with that in mind, you have to fall into one of two categories. Either you believe that Matt 24 deals with Christ's prophesies concerning Israel because of these Jewish references being once again established, or as the Preterist view it, all of Daniel's prophecy concerning Israel was fulfilled at the time of Christ first advent.

I'm having a hard time understanding how you cannot understand this as you have danced all around it. The reason we don't accept Matt 24 as dealing with the church is simply because the events that Jesus describes deals with Jewish practices that, yes some of the early church may have been involved in at that day, but they no longer involve the church today. For you to make your view stick here, you have to believe that the church will once again practice Judaism during the tribulation. It's just that simple. Since we don't believe the church will or should practice Judaism anymore, Jesus could not have been referring to us at the end of the age. Therefore, this is one reason we believe the church will be raptured before these events that He describes.
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Post Whocansatisfy...NO Yo Dude
No, the reason you don't accept Matthew 24 is because it messes up your pre-trib theory.

Now, back to the trumpets....

Let's agree about one thing--the last trump, at least according to Revelation, happens WITHIN the tribulation. So that in itself messes up the pre-trib position.

Further, we know that the these things will be SHORTENED for the elect's sake. That is, the schedule will NOT be completed--otherwise it would not be shortened. Makes perfect sense.

Now, as I have said, Jesus COULD come today. But if he did, it would not be "pre-trib" in the usual sense, for no tribulation would follow. Jesus will return and set up His kingdom. No one can say that He cannot come, for He has let us know that those days WILL be shortened. Another place speaks of God cutting things short in righteousness.

THAT is why we need to live like He could come tonight. Because He COULD.

BUT...

But the point is that--setting aside the cutting it short stuff--the SCRIPTURES do not indicate some "escape" from earth prior to the tribulation.

Back to Matthew 24. OK, let's just say for a moment that it does apply to the Jews only (it doesn't, but just for the sake of argument). Seems like a pretty serious omission on Jesus' part to not say, "Oh, by the way, the Gentile Christians will be outa here during this time. I will pick them up first, then pick you guys up seven years later."

OK, that was facetious. But it seems that since Jesus is talking of end times in such detail, He would not have omitted that VERY IMPORTANT point--what you call "the blessed hope."

There is a difference between being KEPT from God's wrath...and not being on earth at all.

Look at the Land of Goshen in Egypt. Plagues abounded...but did not touch the people of God--especially the Death Angel. KEPT.

Noah--in the world, seeing the effect of God's wrath, but not the target of God's wrath. KEPT.

The three Hebrew boys. In the furnace...but KEPT.

Daniel in the Lion's Den. KEPT.

Elijah during the drought. KEPT.

I find it morally repugnant to hold our for a pre-trib rapture when tribulation finally hits our well-protected hides...after our brethren in the world have suffered for decades under dictators, haters, killers, Muslims, poverty, and so forth. Oh, but when it finally reaches our shores--LIFT UP YOUR HEADS!!!!

I did hear one interesting theory about Revelation I had not particularly heard before. Namely that the book covers a period of around 2000 years. Some things that we are waiting to happen...have already happened (according to the theory). Interesting.

Now, about your take that the Thessalonians thought the Rapture had already taken place. Well, now let's think about that....

If we were told the rapture had already taken place, what would we do? Well, I'd look around for some folks that had been saved EIGHT years. If they were saved then, I'd say the rapture hadn't taken place. I'd ask if anyone remembers graves bursting open, etc.

And if the rapture took place less than seven years before (since the Lord is expected to return after seven more years), then I'd know for sure. And if it took place sooner, I'd wonder why I was not informed of it--why it didn't make the news that people had just disappeared.

Seems the folks were just spooked by the notion that it was all getting ready to come down. Maybe they had unsaved loved ones (the church was in its infancy). Maybe the knew that extra bad persecution would take place before the Lord returned (as Jesus had said).

But for them to think that the Rapture had already taken place (and obviously less than seven years before), well they could figure it out the same way you and I NOW know that there was no rapture in, say, 1960...or 2000.

Love.
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Post Re: Whocansatisfy...NO whocansatisfy
Dude, you just keep beating the air.

Quote:
"
No, the reason you don't accept Matthew 24 is because it messes up your pre-trib theory.

Now, back to the trumpets....

Let's agree about one thing--the last trump, at least according to Revelation, happens WITHIN the tribulation. So that in itself messes up the pre-trib position.

Further, we know that the these things will be SHORTENED for the elect's sake. That is, the schedule will NOT be completed--otherwise it would not be shortened. Makes perfect sense.

Now, as I have said, Jesus COULD come today. But if he did, it would not be "pre-trib" in the usual sense, for no tribulation would follow. Jesus will return and set up His kingdom. No one can say that He cannot come, for He has let us know that those days WILL be shortened. Another place speaks of God cutting things short in righteousness.

THAT is why we need to live like He could come tonight. Because He COULD.

BUT...

But the point is that--setting aside the cutting it short stuff--the SCRIPTURES do not indicate some "escape" from earth prior to the tribulation."

I could say the same thing about you. The reason you do not accept the plain truth of Matt 24 is that it messes up your post-trib viewpoint.

True, the 7 trumpets do take place during the middle of the tribulation. That is one thing we can agree on. Your problem is you want to attribute Paul's trumpets with these 7 trumpets of Revelation. You have nothing to support that, merely the fact that it mentions trumpets. That is what you might call "stretching it." With that kind of interpretation, we could easily go throughout the whole of the Bible and list every mention of a trumpet as being the resurrection. Sorry, that's just poor division of Truth. If you have something actually substantial to prove otherwise, I'm listening.

As for your last comment, you have simply made up an entirely new doctrine. The doctrine of "If Jesus comes now, there just won't be a tribulation." lol Please, do you really expect us to take you seriously? Seriously!

If you can't do any better than this, you really have no place in this discussion for all you have done is said, you don't believe without offering any "credible" reference to support your view.

If you want to be taken seriously, offer some explanation to the questions that I have raised concerning your views. I have given plenty of Scripture to support my view. I'm not saying it is perfect or that it the absolute truth. If you have followed anything I have said, you would know that. But to attack me for discarding Scripture because it doesn't fit my view is simply childish and shows your lack of maturity. If you have any amount of comprehension to read what I have written, you would know that I don't accept or discard Scripture based upon my view or theory. I have a view or theory based upon the evidence of Scripture. I have explained why and no one has yet to offer any sound evidence to disprove my theory. All I am getting is comparisons to trumpets that supposedly prove post-trib, which they might IF they were the same trumpets, but they are not. Prove otherwise. What really blows my mind is that while you say the rapture is at the end, you keep referring to these trumpets taking place during the tribulation. You can't have it both ways, not can you? To talk about the trumpets making a case against pre-trib only makes the point of a mid-trib. Either way, the post-trib position doesn't fit at all. Then with your assertion that there won't be a tribulation based on what,?, NOTHING? is simply ludicrous. You have so much Scripture to refute to hold to that position that it's not funny, yet you cling to it because of your apparently limited and immature understanding of what "shortening of days," refers to.

Concerning your reference to nothing in Scripture referring to an escape, you will have to get around Jesus words and those of Paul who both talked about escape. I've already dealt with that and again no one has cared to explain what Jesus and Paul were referring to. Only claims that these verses do not exists. Sorry, you're just going to have to do better or give it up.


Last edited by whocansatisfy on 2/1/07 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post ChurchAhMahGod
No actually, I was being a smart alleck. 1 Corinthians references the last trump. The last trump in the Bible is Rev. 11.

I think the entire matter is asinine. WHO CARES when He's coming. Just live ready. Am I pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib? I'm whichever one Jesus is. I could care less. If he choses to allow me to go through the Tribulation, then He'll give me the grace to bear up under it. If He comes and gets me in the middle, it will be a nice surprise. If He picks me up BEFORE the fireworks, HALLELUJAH! The point is...

Pre-tribers are going to continue to believe pretrib.

Post-tribers are going to continue to believe posttrib.

Mid-tribers are going to continue to believe midtrib.

The Bible says...

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain .

1 Tim 1:4
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

2 Tim 2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Why do this? Why argue this deeper into the ground than it's already been argued? Why not tell us about your personal soul-winning life, or that new thing that God is ministering to you heart? Why not tell us about successful things you're doing to build your church? Rapture arguments aren't a dead horse... this is a rotted-out carcass lying on the side of the Actcelerate highway, and it's been ridden again, and again, and again.

Have your position. Stick to it. But why argue it? The only reason to present a logical argument is to change someone's way of thinking. If it hasn't happened by now, it's not going to. Time to move on.

And I know, I'll get blasted for this one, but you're wasting the typing time. I won't be back to this thread.
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Post whocansatisfy
No actually, I was being a smart alleck.
We've had plenty of that already.

1 Corinthians references the last trump. The last trump in the Bible is Rev. 11.

You might have a hard time proving that there will be no more trumpet blasts after Rev 11. But if you could prove that the last trumpet of Rev were the trumpet Paul referenced, it would soundly defeat a post-trib view.


Why do this? Why argue this deeper into the ground than it's already been argued? Why not tell us about your personal soul-winning life, or that new thing that God is ministering to you heart? Why not tell us about successful things you're doing to build your church? Rapture arguments aren't a dead horse... this is a rotted-out carcass lying on the side of the Actcelerate highway, and it's been ridden again, and again, and again.

Why do you do this? If you don't like the discussion, why do you read it? Why do you take the time to admonish those of us who do take part? Why not get on every other thread and ask the same question, or do you consider the trivial nonsense in other threads more important that a Biblical discussion? Why not tell us about YOUR personal soul-winning life, rather than chide others for looking into the Holy text? Why don't you tell us about your successful church? Why don't you learn to type what you mean, ie., "Rapture arguments aren't a dead horse." ? (O.K., I had to be a "smart-alec" too, but you were first, right?)

Apparently you don't practice what you preach.

Have your position. Stick to it. But why argue it? The only reason to present a logical argument is to change someones way of thinking. If it hasn't happened by now, it's not going to. Time to move on.

I, along with anyone else that believes in a pre-trib, mid-trib viewpoint were challenged on another thread to offer Scripture to support our belief. I have done that. I have not claimed and still do not claim to have all the facts. But I have offered the Scriptures and reasoning that can lead pre-tribbers to their view. I have asked for those who disagree to offer their Scriptural support to defend their position and as of yet it hasn't happened. Sure, they have made statements and generalizations, but their position creates problems that they cannot account for. If they have something to offer to account for these difficulties, I, for one, would be able to reconsider my own position. There is nothing wrong with this. Study to show thyself approved.

With that said, I have been discussing this on another board with someone who is of the Preterist position. They have made more sense than anything I have read here, yet their position creates huge difficulties. I have said all along that it doesn't matter what one believes about this. But it does not hurt to examine the Scripture together to explore all the possibilities. As I've said, I'm open. If someone can explain with some reasonable sense of logic to accept another view I'm all for it. That is why I take part in this. It is for my benefit. If I thought I had all the answers, I wouldn't be asking for any. There are some though, who have simply declared me wrong without giving anything credible to back it up. So I stand open to the truth.

And I know, I'll get blasted for this one, but you're wasting the typing time. I won't be back to this thread.


Oh yes you will.
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2/1/07 12:47 pm


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Post Whocansatisfy, laughable... Yo Dude
Let's take your stuff point by point:

I could say the same thing about you. The reason you do not accept the plain truth of Matt 24 is that it messes up your post-trib viewpoint.

No, I accept the plain truth of Matthew 24 because any competent scholar who is not trying to PROVE the pre-trib out of nothing would read it that way. I read it that way years ago--before I was pre, mid, or post trib! Again, you prove resoundingly that you haven't a clue.



True, the 7 trumpets do take place during the middle of the tribulation. That is one thing we can agree on. Your problem is you want to attribute Paul's trumpets with these 7 trumpets of Revelation. You have nothing to support that, merely the fact that it mentions trumpets. That is what you might call "stretching it." With that kind of interpretation, we could easily go throughout the whole of the Bible and list every mention of a trumpet as being the resurrection. Sorry, that's just poor division of Truth. If you have something actually substantial to prove otherwise, I'm listening.

The Bible SPECIFICALLY says that resurrection takes place at the LAST TRUMP. Now, this is not just random trumpets playing. This implies that these are divine trumpets of significance. Let's me know that there had been other trumpets of significance before that. Hmmmm, sound familiar? Ought to--read Revelation.

But here's where you logic reaches up to choke the life from your brain (OK, it may be too late for that):

WHENEVER this trumpet plays, IT'S THE LAST ONE! That means it MUST be in the tribulation, for we know that if it is not, then it can't be the last one, now can it? For there would be seven more waiting to sound. So, to be the LAST one, it has to either be the last of the seven mentioned...OR EVEN AFTER THAT!!!! Oh, Hallelujah! Logic is one of God's great gifts!

So, there you have it. The last trump will be the seventh trumpet...or even after that.

OK, pop a rolaid while I continue on....




As for your last comment, you have simply made up an entirely new doctrine. The doctrine of "If Jesus comes now, there just won't be a tribulation." lol Please, do you really expect us to take you seriously? Seriously!

Ummm, that's not a new doctrine. That is what is called post-trib. That is, when Jesus returns, He will set up His kingdom. So, what I was saying is that IF (did you catch that word? do you understand that word?) Jesus came tonight, then, since there is no scripture to indicate a 1.5 coming (which takes place before the second coming), I would think He was back for good, and so the events of Revelation, cut short by God, would not take place. Perfectly reasonable to the rational person. But not to you, likely.




If you can't do any better than this, you really have no place in this discussion for all you have done is said, you don't believe without offering any "credible" reference to support your view. If you want to be taken seriously, offer some explanation to the questions that I have raised concerning your views. I have given plenty of Scripture to support my view. I'm not saying it is perfect or that it the absolute truth. If you have followed anything I have said, you would know that.

The fact that you argue shows me you take me seriously. You have explained away the most reasonable understanding of scripture, all to preserve your pet doctrine. I say let the chips fall where they may. You have failed to allow that.






But to attack me for discarding Scripture because it doesn't fit my view is simply childish and shows your lack of maturity. If you have any amount of comprehension to read what I have written, you would know that I don't accept or discard Scripture based upon my view or theory. I have a view or theory based upon the evidence of Scripture. I have explained why and no one has yet to offer any sound evidence to disprove my theory. All I am getting is comparisons to trumpets that supposedly prove post-trib, which they might IF they were the same trumpets, but they are not. Prove otherwise.

See above for the proof that your position is all wet.


What really blows my mind is that while you say the rapture is at the end, you keep referring to these trumpets taking place during the tribulation. You can't have it both ways, not can you? To talk about the trumpets making a case against pre-trib only makes the point of a mid-trib.

When Jesus returns...if it's at the 3 year mark or the 6.5 year mark...that is the end of the tribulation. He will rule and reign forever.




Either way, the post-trib position doesn't fit at all. Then with your assertion that there won't be a tribulation based on what,?, NOTHING? is simply ludicrous. You have so much Scripture to refute to hold to that position that it's not funny, yet you cling to it because of your apparently limited and immature understanding of what "shortening of days," refers to.

I see that you wisely offer no scriptural rebuttal. Smart man. You know better, right?





Concerning your reference to nothing in Scripture referring to an escape, you will have to get around Jesus words and those of Paul who both talked about escape. I've already dealt with that and again no one has cared to explain what Jesus and Paul were referring to. Only claims that these verses do not exists. Sorry, you're just going to have to do better or give it up.



Did Noah escape drowning in the flood?

Did the three Hebrew boys escape death in the furnace?

Did the Jews in the Land of Goshen escape the plagues that came all the Egyptians?

Yes, they did. But "escape" does not mean "removed to heaven." It means being protected from the certain things.

OK, that's really enough. When you stop talking mean to me, I am happy to have a reasoned conversation. Otherwise, we'll have to go at it with me using my razor sharp wit!--ha!

I do love you. I'm a pretty perturbed by your words and refusals, but that don't stop me loving you.
Acts-dicted
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2/1/07 1:41 pm


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Post Dude, you really take the cake. whocansatisfy
Quote:
"OK, that's really enough. When you stop talking mean to me, I am happy to have a reasoned conversation. Otherwise, we'll have to go at it with me using my razor sharp wit!--ha!

I do love you. I'm a pretty perturbed by your words and refusals, but that don't stop me loving you."


That's the pot calling the kettle black. Me mean to you? lol I can understand though where you could think that in line of your twisted interpretation of Scripture.

Then you follow all your insults with "I do love you." Wow. I suppose I should feel blessed. Consider yourself blessed that I don't share my opinion of you. lol
Friendly Face
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2/1/07 5:42 pm


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Post WhoCanSatisfy... Yo Dude
OK, maybe love was too strong of a word.

How about...um...I TOLERATE YOU...because you amuse me? Will that work for you better?

As for you opinion of me, I think you've made it pretty clear in your various postings, letting me know how ignorant I must be, etc.

So basically, "BEGONE, VILE MONGREL THAT LURKS 'NEATH STYGIAN DARKNESS!"

Oh, and pray for my sanctification.
Acts-dicted
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2/1/07 6:00 pm


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Post Dude tolerates me. lol whocansatisfy
No, I accept the plain truth of Matthew 24 because any competent scholar who is not trying to PROVE the pre-trib out of nothing would read it that way. I read it that way years ago--before I was pre, mid, or post trib! Again, you prove resoundingly that you haven't a clue.


The PLAIN truth my friend is you can’t see the forest for the trees. To tell us that you accept the plain truth of Matt 24 without explaining why Jesus makes Jewish references, which coincidentally line up with what John tells us in Rev., is simply cowardly logic. Your ONLY claim is you accept the plain truth. Wow, that is really intelligent. Now try explaining how it is so plain to you while dealing with the subject material found within. Truth is, it is plain you can’t deal with it.

The Bible SPECIFICALLY says that resurrection takes place at the LAST TRUMP. Now, this is not just random trumpets playing. This implies that these are divine trumpets of significance. Let's me know that there had been other trumpets of significance before that. Hmmmm, sound familiar? Ought to--read Revelation.

But here's where you logic reaches up to choke the life from your brain (OK, it may be too late for that):

WHENEVER this trumpet plays, IT'S THE LAST ONE! That means it MUST be in the tribulation, for we know that if it is not, then it can't be the last one, now can it? For there would be seven more waiting to sound. So, to be the LAST one, it has to either be the last of the seven mentioned...OR EVEN AFTER THAT!!!! Oh, Hallelujah! Logic is one of God's great gifts!

So, there you have it. The last trump will be the seventh trumpet...or even after that.

Wow! Another example of your intelligent logic. So with your understanding there just can’t be another trumpet anywhere IF, and that’s a big if, the trumpet Paul referred to was part of the 7 trumpet judgments. Yo, you simply don’t have a clue about Biblical studies, do you? You have stretched the very limits of reasoning to make your own pet doctrine. You should try studying the various trumpets. You will find that the 7 of Rev have nothing to do with Paul’s reference to a rapture/resurrection. Furthermore, the 7th trumpet of Rev covers a period of time according to chapter 10:7. “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There are 12 events to take place during this trumpet period. You can read them for yourself in chapters 11:15 – 13:18. I will agree with one thing though about this trumpet. There will be a rapture, just not of the church. It will be the rapture of the manchild in chapter 12:5. This manchild is the 144,000 Jews sealed to go through the trumpet judgments. So here we have reference to yet another rapture that doesn’t involve the church or anyone else. Makes you think there might even be more. Oh, wait, there is. The two witnesses! Oh, that just can’t be. I mean, if we are all raptured and resurrected at the “last trump,” and that trump is the seventh angel of Rev. 11, then there must be something wrong here. We know the church can’t go up beforehand, because Paul said the last trump and that trump is in the tribulation, but here we have 144,000 Jews and two witnesses going up before us. Say it ain’t so! You have real problems here Yo that your post-trib position just doesn’t account for.


Ummm, that's not a new doctrine. That is what is called post-trib. That is, when Jesus returns, He will set up His kingdom. So, what I was saying is that IF (did you catch that word? do you understand that word?) Jesus came tonight, then, since there is no scripture to indicate a 1.5 coming (which takes place before the second coming), I would think He was back for good, and so the events of Revelation, cut short by God, would not take place. Perfectly reasonable to the rational person. But not to you, likely.

Your constant talking down to anyone that disagrees with you only marks your immaturity as I’ve said before. You still haven’t answered my question about your age. Did I hit it on the head? It wouldn’t surprise me in the least. Here you snidely remark about a 1.5 coming. Simply childish banter to make a point that doesn’t exist but in you mind. You need to mature enough to understand the difference in His coming for the saints in the clouds and His second advent to earth. Paul’s reference to the Thess does not say that He will come to earth. It does talk about His coming for the saints, church, and we will be caught up to meet Him. Until you get the Second advent to earth separate from His catching the church up to meet Him in the air, your banter here is simply nonsense and proves nothing. Secondly, stating that all the events of Revelation will not take place IF Jesus comes back beforehand is simply another example of nonsense. The fact is that when you get your facts straight concerning “catching us away,” and the “second coming, return,” then you can say that when He comes to earth the tribulation will be over. That much we can agree on. The rest is simply lack of understanding or mixing of events.


When Jesus returns...if it's at the 3 year mark or the 6.5 year mark...that is the end of the tribulation. He will rule and reign forever.

Again, Jesus will not return to earth until all things are fulfilled. Your lack of understanding concerning the meaning of “the days are shortened,” only make you "look" ignorant. But make no mistake about it, I do love you man and because of my love for you I try to help you get through the mental fog you find yourself in concerning end-times.

I see that you wisely offer no scriptural rebuttal. Smart man. You know better, right?

I offered all the Scripture that I have asked you to give an answer for. Otherwise, I need no more Scripture as you don’t know how to deal with those I’ve given.
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2/1/07 6:50 pm


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Post Whocansatisfy... Yo Dude
Virtually EVERYTHING Jesus said was to the Jews. Do you discount all of that as applicable to us also? And again, why would Jesus leave out the most significant event post-Calvary--the Rapture--our of his discourse? Well, He didn't. He told us He would appear...you are just wanting to invent an appearance before that that has no support in scripture.

You called me reasoning "cowardly logic." See, that's why this discussion has become heated. There's not call for such things. Do you really think I'M AFRAID to see something otherwise. Man, I WISH there was a pre-trib rapture in scripture! Why? Because my son will have to go through some tough times (along with me) if the Lord returns in my lifetime? Do you think I'm a complete idiot???

DO NOT ANSWER THAT!


As for the last trump, you have failed to grasp the logic. Let me do it again....

Now, I THINK that the last trump is the one in Revelation. I don't believe that Revelation is necessarily chronological, so that is why.

BUT, BUT, BUT...it may not be. It may be a trumpet that sounds AFTER those trumpets...but certainly not before. Here's why....

OK, we know that the resurrection takes place at the LAST TRUMP.

When does the last trump take place? Well, it MIGHT be the last of those seven trumps mentioned in Revelation. It seems to indicate that God takes over the world at that point.

But let's just say that that is a SET of trumpets that are not really associated with the LAST trump. That is, there is a seventh and last trump of THAT PARTICULAR SET OF TRUMPETS...but it is not THE last trump.

Well, now, you can't have a LAST TRUMP that sounds before other trumpets, now can you.

That is, either is IS indeed the last trump...or it is not the LAST, LAST, LAST trump.

So, it would seem very hard to take any other position than that either "the last trump" refers to the last trump in the serious of trumpets in Revelation...or if that is not the last trump, then a trump that occurs EVEN AFTER THAT!

That is, it cannot be the LAST TRUMP if there are still trumpets to sound (trumpets of divine significance, and not just someone playing some jazz).

So, we know that the last trump is either the seventh trumpet, and takes place within the tribulation (since the trumpets before it brought God's wrath) OR we know that the Last Trump actually takes place after that, and is the last trump of spiritual significance.

Therefore, we see that the last trump CANNOT take place BEFORE the tribulation, for there are other trumpets to sound...and that would mean that the last trump was not the last trump.

Now, it may be, as some have argued, that the events in Revelation are not fully chronological. Some argue that the various seals, vials, bowls, trumpets, are all really the same thing, told over and over. BUT even if it were, we know that the trumpet preceding the last trumpet (in Revelation) is a tribulational trumpet, so the next trumpet (if it is indeed the last trump) would be IN the tribulation.

Forget mid or post for a moment. All that matters is that the pre-trib is not possible if you believe the last trump signals the Rapture. And you do believe that, I understand.

Now, please, no more nasty remarks between us. If you can't discuss without belittling me (which makes me belittle you and vice versa), then we have no business arguing. Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me stupid. On the other hand--NO!--I'm just joking.

Let's argue like adults or let's just not argue at all.
Acts-dicted
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2/1/07 7:51 pm


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Post In a nutshell... Yo Dude
How can the LAST TRUMP that sounds at the rapture indeed BE the LAST trump, if we know that there are yet seven more trumpets to sound?

It cannot be the last trump if it is not, well, the last trump.

So, either that takes place at or after the seventh trumpet (assuming the seventh trumpet is not considered the LAST trumpet), or we have to say that the last trump will NOT sound at the rapture, etc.
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2/1/07 10:24 pm


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Post Re: In a nutshell... whocansatisfy
Yo Dude wrote:
How can the LAST TRUMP that sounds at the rapture indeed BE the LAST trump, if we know that there are yet seven more trumpets to sound?

It cannot be the last trump if it is not, well, the last trump.

So, either that takes place at or after the seventh trumpet (assuming the seventh trumpet is not considered the LAST trumpet), or we have to say that the last trump will NOT sound at the rapture, etc.



Your problem with interpretation is that you cannot get past confusing events and trumpets. True, the last trump is the last trump. But last of what? Some believe that when the Lord comes for the church in the air that a trumpet will sound that will raise the dead in Christ. THEN, the next trump, or last trump, will gather those who are alive and remain.

To tie the trumpets together, out of context, does not make for sound Biblical interpretation.

What I find hard to accept is that you, and others apparently, take such a brash, literal, view of "last trump," while throwing out what is spelled out in detail concerning other end-time matters. It doesn't matter if you believe that the events of Rev. are chronological or not, and it certainly takes a lot of study to come to an informed understanding, but one thing is clear with a minimal study and that is the last of 7 trumpets in Rev are no where near the end of tribulation.

I understand what you are saying about "last trumpet." But your conclusion is flawed. One has to keep the context in mind when interpreting any Scripture. If Paul is talking about the Lord's return for the church before or in the middle of tribulation, then the trumpet he references has to do with the last trump of that event. It does not create a doctrine in and of itself to prove that there will be no more trumpets sounded after the rapture. That is where your theology falls apart.

In light of all the Scriptures and questions I have posed to you and others, you will have to do a lot better in rightly dividing the Scripture to make the point you stand on.
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2/2/07 12:11 am


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Post Whocansatisfy... Yo Dude
But therein lies the rub. You indicated that some believe there will be TWO trumpets that sound for the rapture. I never heard that before. Can I tell you that I think that's just snatched out of thin air? Can you provide any documentation that anyone believes that. But it doesn't matter anyway (see next sentence).

Even if many do believe it, THERE IS NO HINT OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING IT. NONE!

I may believe that that the trumpets played in heaven are made of solid diamond--but there is no Bible for it.

You can believe what you want about the trumpets. But if it's not scriptural, it means nothing.

As I said in my post, forget whether I'm right or not about whether it is mid or post. I could be wrong. But I DO know that the last trump doesn't sound BEFORE the tribulation, for that would mean it is not the last trump.

If people didn't assume a pre-trib rapture, they wouldn't have to invent a second trumpet at the Rapture.
Acts-dicted
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2/2/07 12:20 am


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Post Not quite there yet dude. whocansatisfy
The rub is with you.

Quote:
"But I DO know that the last trump doesn't sound BEFORE the tribulation, for that would mean it is not the last trump.

If people didn't assume a pre-trib rapture, they wouldn't have to invent a second trumpet at the Rapture."

I know that you would have a hard time with what I wrote and I certainly don't have the time to explain it to you anymore. The rub with you though is that you claim, "I DO know that the last trump doesn't sound BEFORE the tribulation." Sorry dude, you just don't know that.

Again, you base it on two words spoken by Paul, "last trump." That is all. You can claim that it is more Scripture than I have and you may or may not have a point. But the real issue here is that you do not know. When you have studied enough to know what all the trumpets are and their purpose, then you might be able to make such a claim.

It's funny really because you hang everything on two words, "last trump," to say that the rapture of the church cannot happen before the tribulation,(without understanding context BTW) but you cannot seem to come to terms with the voluminous amounts of Scripture that prove there is more to tribulation, trumpets, vials, raptures, etc., than you can give an account for. Then you turn around and simply write it all off because it might not be chronological. This kind of "cherry-picking" in your beliefs concerning Biblical events just does not make for sound doctrine.

I agree that we will never come to any agreement on this and with that I tender my leave.
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2/2/07 12:38 am


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Post Whocansatify... Yo Dude
Are you implying that those two words--"last trump"--are insignificant? That Paul was just talking out of his head?

All I know is what it said. That's called SCRIPTURAL soundness. And you take me to task for taking the scripture at face value???

It's not about whether the trib is mid or post. The question on this thread is whether it is PRE. Unless you can show that the "last trump" does not, in fact, mean THE LAST TRUMP, then you have to hold that, since there are trumpets in the tribulation, that the last trump MUST, logically, be the last of those, or even LATER.

So there is no way the last trump sounds before the tribulation.

It's just not there.
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2/2/07 11:33 am


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