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 WVWatchman |
Charlie Metz |
Preach on brother preach on. I want to hear more of the sermon series on being holy and separate from the world. I want to hear about not being hung on on our emotion hangups. I want to hear that the only thing we need is Jesus...not another support group. Start another topic string on that. Brother, where do you pastor? I am coming to your church. Well, wait, I think I know you...you should pastor. I love you brother...keep the eyes open and pray that Jesus comes soon to save us all from the heretical end days apostasy.
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"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matt. 7:13-14 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 706
3/1/07 11:02 pm
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| hey chuck |
wvwatchman |
I thought that was you, about 3 lines into your first post. Its that kindred spirit thing I guess 
People may think that is harsh, but that is what the Church needs, we are apostate. We have given oursleves to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Just as spoken 2000 years ago. If my heart is right, I can sit in the "deadest" church in the world and as soon as the preacher cracks the Bible, assuming He does, and reads from it, that living word should quicken my spirit and bring me to life regardless of the corpses around me. The problem is we have too many slick willy pulpiteers trying to draw a crowd rather than speak "what thu saith the Lord". But how could they, if they've spent all week reading Hybel instead of the Bible?
It's not Jesus and, it's Jesus period. If He doesn't satisfy alone nothing will, not the bee gees, vanilla ice or the electric slide.
If it takes a program to get 'em, it'll take a newer program to keep 'em.
WAKE UP
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Amos 8:11-12
John 12:32 |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 59
3/1/07 11:18 pm
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Telecaster |
| myinquringmind wrote: | I have determined that some of you on here will always disagree with anyone who does things different than you. Does it really matter what method is used to bring someone the Word of God. It isn't about what you think is the correct way to do things. All that matters is a generation is hearing the Word and developing a relationship with Jesus. Not every one will be touched singing "I exault Thee" with no music. Why is it that we feel we need to bash someones ministry because they do things different. They are ministering to a differnt age and demographic group. What will work in a big city church won't always work in a rural church. The personalities and people are different and want ministered to in a different way. All that matters is God is glorified and people are turning from unrightessness to rightessness. It is not up to us to determine how they should do it.
Alot of the problems with the church today is that we scream at kids that they can't do this and they can't do that. Church isnt about a big list of do's and don'ts that we make it. Instead of telling kids they are going to Hell because they listen to secular music we should be teaching them so that they are able to disern on their own what to listen to. If the only reason they dont listen to a certain artist is because they have been told they will go to Hell for listening to it, have you really accompished anything. Do you expect them to call with every life decison they have to make to find out or would it be more beneficial to them to be able to make they own decisions. |
No one is bashing anything for it being different. Any "bashing" as you say is taking place in response to a perceived and believed erroneous and harmful way of representing Christ and the church. Don't mistake the lack of a desire to subscribe to this view to equal traditionalism and stauch religion or a desire to preach what you can't do or you'll go to Hell. In fact it's all quite the opposite. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/2/07 12:21 am
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| Re: deep end |
Telecaster |
| Political_Pastor wrote: | | COGCharlie wrote: | Kevin,
I dont think you would use the songs I cited the above lyrics to (at least I hope not). However, I set up the straw man to make a point. If these "artists" stand for these things, then how can you promote them in your worship service? How can you tell them it is ok to listen, act, or idolize them? That is what you do when you place their music at the most important part of a christian's time during the week. The collective worship experience is to lift up God. That is to be a sacred time. Not one the is muddied with mixed messages. You may preach a message that "punches them in the throat" but they may not be listening to your message...but they did connect with that lifestyle that the music reminded them of.
I am sure you do a great job of engaging people. I am concerned with some methods used in churches today when they employ worldly methods to get someone to listen. It is almost like saying, my teenager is going to have sex anyway, why not give them a condom to start the abstinence conversation. Would it not be the same? Or, maybe your 17yr old is going to drink, so you give him a 6 pack to engage him in the conversation about why it is important to abstain from alcohol.
My mantra on this whole thread is separation. We, the church, must be different from the world. We must be a holy people to point the way to Christ. I dont think listening to Aerosmith or Pink Floyd in church allows us the cleanest purest way of pointing to Christ. I think singing about our faith or songs praising God does.
Your brother Christ,
Charlie |
How about great songs like "Mary did you Know." A Christmas song, made famous by Michael English......uh oh, better not sing that one, because the whole separation issue. You know he cheated on his wife, that's not good. People might be so in love with his song, that they go home and Google "Mary did you Know" and they realize that Michael English made that song famous, then they Google him, and found out he cheated on his wife. They are so in love with the song, and the good message, that they start cheating on their own spouse, man what an unfortunate turn of events. Don't sing that song, or people will start cheating on their spouses. |
Sir, get a grip. If they do look him up they'll see that God has completely restored him as a response of his turning back to God and they'll see the power of God in action. Again, another seemingly wasted post. Come on. No one has stated anything close to this. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/2/07 12:23 am
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| Re: deep end |
Telecaster |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | | COGCharlie wrote: | Kevin,
I dont think you would use the songs I cited the above lyrics to (at least I hope not). However, I set up the straw man to make a point. If these "artists" stand for these things, then how can you promote them in your worship service? How can you tell them it is ok to listen, act, or idolize them? That is what you do when you place their music at the most important part of a christian's time during the week. The collective worship experience is to lift up God. That is to be a sacred time. Not one the is muddied with mixed messages. You may preach a message that "punches them in the throat" but they may not be listening to your message...but they did connect with that lifestyle that the music reminded them of.
I am sure you do a great job of engaging people. I am concerned with some methods used in churches today when they employ worldly methods to get someone to listen. It is almost like saying, my teenager is going to have sex anyway, why not give them a condom to start the abstinence conversation. Would it not be the same? Or, maybe your 17yr old is going to drink, so you give him a 6 pack to engage him in the conversation about why it is important to abstain from alcohol.
My mantra on this whole thread is separation. We, the church, must be different from the world. We must be a holy people to point the way to Christ. I dont think listening to Aerosmith or Pink Floyd in church allows us the cleanest purest way of pointing to Christ. I think singing about our faith or songs praising God does.
Your brother Christ,
Charlie |
Here's the deal. We disagree very strongly on methodology, that's cool w/ me. You couldn't sit in my services. Honestly, it bores me to tears to sit in more traditional services.
Here's the difference. I have not ever slammed on traditional style. Never have I said, "It's so lame, outdated, irrelevant, etc. I will NEVER reach our culture or emerging generation. God is embarrassed by the fact that we won't change. God's focus is on doing anything short of sin to reach the lost and we dishonor God with those methods." Never have I or anyone that I've read said that.
If we did...you guys would excommunicate us. We may even get banned for slamming what's supposedly "sacred". So, if we don't, why do you? Why do you guys insist on calling my methods an abomination, unholy, a stench to God? Unless you've been to my church and seen how it's done...you have NO IDEA.
You guys tell us to "be careful" w/ our methods. I guess you think our message is lame & watered down because we lead the service off with a great song that most people are listening to anyway. You have no clue. How dare you judge our hearts based on something like that.
We question methods that our fathers used to figure out what is best to reach our world. You seem to question us w/ some prophetic attitude of judgment. That's wrong. I have been in emergent/contemporary/seeker world for awhile now. I have never seen anything from these churches except honor and dignity when talking about more traditional churches. I see nothing but the opposite from traditional churches when they talk about us.
I don't know if it's fear. I don't know what it is. But it's really irritating, it's really old, it's really empty, and it makes alot of you guys seem judgemental & pious. Which I know you really aren't. |
Well I'm glad you know we're not because for a moment you were beginning to sound like a seeker sensitive emergent minister or something. You're views and practices are being "slammed" because they make mockery of the Word of God, they place a black eye on Christianity and the church, they mar the identity of what the church is supposed to represent, they promote entertainment and familiarity rather than the Spirit of God, they promote numbers over spiritual conditions, and the list goes on. The children of Israel found themselves time and time again losing focus and leaving their first love everytime they brought in culture or a society outside of what God had ordained. They brought their ways and their ideology into the house of God and contaminated it. So as long as you continue to operate in a way and manner which violates the premise of the Word of God and refuse to come out and be holy and seperate, then you'll continue to get "slammed" as you say.
You make the mistake of assuming all non-emergent services are traditional. We're hardly traditional, but highly Biblical and the impact is awesome. However, I'd rather be bored to tears in a traditional service then associate with a house filled with the world's trash. As one poster already said, the only time Jesus showed His anger and wrath in the scriptures is when the money changers brought their product and influence into the House of God.
Evangelism is evangelism and reaching people is reaching people, but the concept of pointing them to God by the means of anything not associated with the Word of God or the Spirit of Truth is an abomination and false in doctrine. The Word "slams" you brothers. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/2/07 12:32 am
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| Re: deep end |
Telecaster |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | I think I am being judgemental and there is nothing wrong in judging if you have the facts....I think in this case you judge yourself...I don't know beans about "Black Eyed Peas", Sugarland, and others...never heard one of them that I know of, but you listed them as some bands you had done/seen done... now, based on some of the songs they do as listed by | Quote: | | COGCharlie, brother it ain't right to have these characters perform in church! |
So then, based on the fact that none of the people that I associate w/ would ever attend a traditional church because they find it lame, irrelevant, etc...I can judge it? I mean, those are facts, they are real people telling me that. Does that mean you guys want me to throw the same judgement ya'll way? Cause you see us using that music in church as being, how did you say it, "ain't right"? Well, I think it "ain't right" that some churches don't change, refuse to embrace new things or questions of tradition. I think it "just ain't right" or honoring to God that people who can't really sing are allowed to sing specials at some churches.
Is that what you want? Do you want us judging you guys that way for things that you don't see a problem with? |
So in other words, you manipulate the message and the charge of Christ to accomodate? That's not what the Great Commission is about friend. You'd find they are a minority too if you do the proper research. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/2/07 12:34 am
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| Re: deep end |
KevinLloyd |
[quote="Telecaster"] | KevinLloyd wrote: |
So in other words, you manipulate the message and the charge of Christ to accomodate? That's not what the Great Commission is about friend. You'd find they are a minority too if you do the proper research. |
Uh...don't remember saying that "friend".
This is just the difference b/w us...you see my methods as a black eye on the church. I see your closed mindedness as an embarrassment.
Whatever, got better things to do.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/2/07 1:31 am
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| Kevin Loyd, |
Kyle Percival |
I wrote a simple four sentence statement. Can you not read?
Christ didn't behave like the world. He was so different, the worldly wanted to become like Him. That is what you don't get.
_________________
1 Cor. 10:31 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 742
3/2/07 6:55 am
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| Re: Kevin Loyd, |
String Bender55 |
| Kyle Percival wrote: | I wrote a simple four sentence statement. Can you not read?
Christ didn't behave like the world. He was so different, the worldly wanted to become like Him. That is what you don't get. |
No, Christ did not act like the world. However he did tell us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every living creature.
In my mind this statement tells us to use "ANY MEANS NECESSARY" to achieve this goal.
Let me say this, IF I were to attend a church that did NOTHING but Red Back Stuff, I would look for another Church. Don't you think if a person visited a Church that had HOT music that would draw him in? I know it works.
Why do you suppose a Christian concert draws more people that an Old Fashioned Revival? That is because People want things that are relevant today. A 100 year old song (Although I love all those old songs) is not relevant to the average person walking in off the street.
I say, use what works. I agree that I am different than a lot of others here who want to take the Church back 50 years. If that floats your boat, then ride the swell. It does nothing for me.
Mrs. String Bender and I visited a Church near our home (It was a CoG) and we thought we had found a Young on fire Pastor. But when the music started, it was old, tired and used up. Red back from cover to cover. The people were friendly and the Pastor had energy and fire. The music was SAD. We never went back.
So if you want your 4 and no more, keep up with the old stuff. If want to reach the lost at any cost, then you have to get down in the ditch with them and see them on their level and minister to them in relevant ways that reach them TODAY.
Otherwise you sound like their Great Grandfather preaching old timey religion. Let the music bring them in. Let the Pastor impart God's words, let the Holy Spirit move their hearts and let God clean them up. Let man accept that not all people have to fit in "YOUR" idea of what a Christian is. Think outside the box.
Years ago, this was acceptable, but as you see MOST Great Churches have GREAT Music. They sing NEW stuff and play all kinds of things. I went to one Church where they played Sweet Home Alabama for the offering. There were smiles on EVERY PERSON'S face. No words, just great toe tapping Rock and Roll riff's.
Welcome to the NEW CoG.
SB55 |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5681
3/2/07 8:25 am
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| 50 cent beer night usually draws a crowd. |
Kyle Percival |
_________________
1 Cor. 10:31 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 742
3/2/07 8:30 am
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| Re: 50 cent beer night usually draws a crowd. |
String Bender55 |
| Kyle Percival wrote: | |
Great idea.....
WHO said it was wrong to drink beer?
Although I don't drink, I know some who do.
I know one Lady who comes from a prominent CoG family, whose husband is a Church leader who does enjoy a glass of wine with her dinner.
When I say leader, I mean they are Headquarters level. How do I know? An old friend told me. My friend would know, it was my friends Mother and Father.
So I guess Matthew 7:1 applies in this instance.
SB55 |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5681
3/2/07 8:34 am
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| Re: deep end |
Telecaster |
[quote="KevinLloyd"] | Telecaster wrote: | | KevinLloyd wrote: |
So in other words, you manipulate the message and the charge of Christ to accomodate? That's not what the Great Commission is about friend. You'd find they are a minority too if you do the proper research. |
Uh...don't remember saying that "friend".
This is just the difference b/w us...you see my methods as a black eye on the church. I see your closed mindedness as an embarrassment.
Whatever, got better things to do. |
I'll borrow one of your earlier statements about me. You sir, don't have a clue. If I'm closeminded for refusing to infuse the house of God with secular music in order to lead people to God, then so be it. If you did have a clue, you'd find I'm one of the farthest things from closeminded. But there's a huge difference in someone being close minded and someone standing for Biblical convictions. At least the argument you hear against your practices have explicit Biblical foundation. Your's on the other hand are derived from commands of Christ to reach people. We can't take one verse and stretch it over the entire Word, rather we can find verses and see how they correlate one with another. This being done, this business has become a black eye for the church. For as many people as you say you reach, you turn off almost double. How's that for emerging? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/2/07 8:36 am
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| Some soft core porn will help boost your youth attendance!!! |
Kyle Percival |
_________________
1 Cor. 10:31 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 742
3/2/07 8:37 am
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| Re: Some soft core porn will help boost your youth attendanc |
String Bender55 |
| Kyle Percival wrote: | |
No there is a point where you have to draw a line in the sand.
We are at that point.
No porn for the youth. It is not a good idea. Their hormones are raging as it is.
So, the line is drawn. Although we have to live in this world, we do not have to partake in it. Music is different. God created music, the devil perverted it and we are taking it back.
Every note on every line in every key signature belongs to God.
SB55 |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5681
3/2/07 8:42 am
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| Re: Kevin Loyd, |
Layperson |
[quote="String Bender55
In my mind this statement tells us to use "ANY MEANS NECESSARY" to achieve this goal.
end of quote]
Do you realize what you just said? Does that include bringing sin into the house of God?
Last edited by Layperson on 3/2/07 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
3/2/07 8:55 am
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| Re: Kevin Loyd, |
String Bender55 |
| Layperson wrote: | [quote="String Bender55
In my mind this statement tells us to use "ANY MEANS NECESSARY" to achieve this goal.
end of quote]
Do you realize what you just said? Does that include bring sin into the house of God? |
I said what I meant.
There is a line to be drawn. Porn, beer and other things are NOT welcome in our Church.
I remember Bobby Rose held a drawing on Easter Sunday. he gave away a Bicycle in Sunday service. Ever kid under 13 was entered. Guess what, he got a lot of guff for that. Let me tell you about that Sunday service. There were probably 50 little kids there that day hoping to win that bike.
Guess what? Everyone of those kid brought their parents with them. So there was about 125 people there who would never have graced the door steps with their presence. Was that sin? No! Bobby Rose used any means necessary to bring in the lost, including giving away a bike.
My statement should be taken as BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY within morally responsible thinking.
I did not think I would have to spell it out that explicitly. I should have know by your screen name that I should have. You are only a layman.
SB55 |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5681
3/2/07 9:09 am
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| Re: Kevin Loyd, |
Telecaster |
| String Bender55 wrote: | | I did not think I would have to spell it out that explicitly. I should have know by your screen name that I should have. You are only a layman. SB55 |
Then if he's disqualified from his opinion as a layman, then as a simple stringbender, you're disqualified from making ministry decisions as it pertains to evangelism.
If you think that's unfair, so is your statement. Agree or disagree, there is no room for ridiculing. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/2/07 10:23 am
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| Re: Kevin Loyd, |
String Bender55 |
| Telecaster wrote: | | String Bender55 wrote: | | I did not think I would have to spell it out that explicitly. I should have know by your screen name that I should have. You are only a layman. SB55 |
Then if he's disqualified from his opinion as a layman, then as a simple stringbender, you're disqualified from making ministry decisions as it pertains to evangelism.
If you think that's unfair, so is your statement. Agree or disagree, there is no room for ridiculing. |
Since you are ONLY a Telecaster and I am a Stratocaster. I will cut you some slack.
My whole point is this.
Do not have such a closed mind about DIFFERENT ways to reach people that you become so stuck in the 50's that you can't move in different directions. So the bottom line is for me is this. Even The Bible tells of people who are NOT RIGHT reaching people who are lost.
Example:
A Pastor cheating with his secertary and dancing and drinking out on the town preaches a sermon on a Sunday morning where 3 people give their heart to God.
Are those 3 any less saved because the Pastor sinned? NO! It is the same way with music. What difference does it make WHAT brings the sinners in to hear the word, whether it is a Bike giveaway or HOT music.
It makes NO difference as long as God does what he does through the Holy Spirit.
You need to buy a Strat and Rock out! Jam for the lamb and then you will understand what it is all about. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5681
3/2/07 12:29 pm
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| Re: Kevin Loyd, |
Layperson |
| String Bender55 wrote: | | Layperson wrote: | [quote="String Bender55
In my mind this statement tells us to use "ANY MEANS NECESSARY" to achieve this goal.
end of quote]
Do you realize what you just said? Does that include bring sin into the house of God? |
I said what I meant.
There is a line to be drawn. Porn, beer and other things are NOT welcome in our Church.
I remember Bobby Rose held a drawing on Easter Sunday. he gave away a Bicycle in Sunday service. Ever kid under 13 was entered. Guess what, he got a lot of guff for that. Let me tell you about that Sunday service. There were probably 50 little kids there that day hoping to win that bike.
Guess what? Everyone of those kid brought their parents with them. So there was about 125 people there who would never have graced the door steps with their presence. Was that sin? No! Bobby Rose used any means necessary to bring in the lost, including giving away a bike.
My statement should be taken as BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY within morally responsible thinking.
I did not think I would have to spell it out that explicitly. I should have know by your screen name that I should have. You are only a layman.
SB55 |
Wellll.. nowwww.... The reason I asked is that this thread is about bringing punk rock groups (or some such junk) into the church as worship groups. I just thought from your statement that you may be one of them. Sorry if I misjudged you. The bike deal is ok... |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
3/2/07 12:57 pm
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| Why no porn? |
Kyle Percival |
Why do we have to draw lines?
Who gets to draw said lines?
_________________
1 Cor. 10:31 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 742
3/2/07 1:03 pm
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