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 Re: Jon's experience is hardly |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Kenneth Copeland said something to the effect that if he had been Paul he would have rebuked the thorn in the flesh. The fact that Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletum doesn't faze them--either Paul or Trophimus just didn't have enough faith.
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Is this the same Kenneth Copeland that rebukes storms and they dissipate? The same person who is married to Gloria Copeland, who said that we as Christians should set the pattern of the weather? However, when the major storms hit Louisiana, Texas and Mississippi the last few years, rather than standing on the beach and rebuking the storm and commanding it back out to sea, the Copeland's were strangely absent and nowhere to be found. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/29/18 7:34 pm
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| Re: I didn't say He couldn't have healed him from a distance |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| brotherjames wrote: | He waited. Now Mark and OT will say because He waited it proves it is not God's will to heal everyone and I will respond as I have on the past, Resurrection certainly qualifies as healing considering all the organs had shut down, the flesh was putrefying - healing is called for. Basic understanding of physiology understands that in order for a dead thing to come back to life the underlying disease that killed him along with having his organs repaired would have to be accomplished. And they weill disagree and so it goes.
I am preaching on faith in a few moments, specifically on pda 62:5. My expectation is from the Lord. I have often discovered you get in life what you expect. For the doubters, be sure God's mercy is yours sometimes even in spite of your doubts. Praise God. As for me, I expect a miracle. You don't so you will never have to deal with disappointment. |
Just a quick question, please! Is Lazarus still living? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/29/18 7:35 pm
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| Re: OTCP...change the title of the thread |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | The very best you can say is that: "Jesus MAY not have healed all." That's all the scriptures will allow you to say, so, in the interest of keeping you from making the same sort of mistakes that you claim the WOF make, change your title. |
Like George Washington, Aaron, I cannot tell a lie. Jesus DID NOT heal everyone. My statements are based on sound exegesis, not eisegesis. Not to worry about OTCP making ridiculous unsubstantiated claims like the woffies. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/29/18 7:37 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | So you're saying that in chapter 11, John's principle purpose was to draw our attention to the revelation of Jesus Christ and His redemptive work? That it actually wasn't an instructional text about how to minister healing to people, but that it was a narrative text focused on the eternal significance of Jesus' coming for all who would have faith in Him?
Good heavens, next you'll be telling me that the miracle of the loaves and fishes wasn't supposed to teach how giving money can result in a multiplied meeting of one's financial needs. |
None of these miracles were designed to point folk to Jesus, they were designed to become the basis for the Democratic National Convention platform...............Freebies and Entitlements for Everbody.  |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/29/18 7:42 pm
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| Re: Interesting... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | The always-guaranteed-healing-in-this-life WoF doctrine. |
Thank you, Wyatt. This is what I so vehemently reject! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/29/18 7:45 pm
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| Well OT , your original post tried to erroneously |
brotherjames |
make the point that somehow because Mark 1 indicates Jesus healed many who were sick and cast out demons of many that Jesus didn't heal ALL. First of all as I initially responded many indicates a multitude not just some. Secondly and more importantly, this incident is also recorded by Matthew in chapter 8. Matthew indicates Jesus healed them ALL to PROVE ISAIAH'S PROPHECY OF ISaA 53:4
Matt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
HERE YOU GO
Admit it, you are WRONG, SAY IT, I AM WRONG.
Last edited by brotherjames on 1/29/18 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/29/18 8:05 pm
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| OTCP... |
Aaron Scott |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | OTCP, do you believe that there were some that Jesus prayed for who did not get healed...or is your claim more along the lines that for some reason Jesus didn’t deal with everyone, so some were left out and not healed?
To say that Jesus didn’t heal all that got to him is very different from saying that Jesus didn’t get to them all. So, which is the claim you are desperate to make so that you can justify the belief that God wants some of us sick...but wants all of us saved? |
Everyone Jesus prayed for to be healed was indeed healed.
He did not, however, heal everyone. He didn't eradicate sickness in Israel while on earth. He certainly didn't go back to the crowd who was looking for him in Mark 1. He chose to go elsewhere to preach the Gospel. |
But then again, He did heal everyone who came to Him. So what's OUR problem? As I said, even if we insisted that only 50% of the time Jesus got results, that's WORLD'S better than our own stats. So what's OUR problem? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/29/18 10:05 pm
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| Re: OTCP... |
Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | But then again, He did heal everyone who came to Him. So what's OUR problem? As I said, even if we insisted that only 50% of the time Jesus got results, that's WORLD'S better than our own stats. So what's OUR problem? |
Aaron, I'm not sure about you, but the main difference between me and Jesus is that I'm not the Son of God. I am not the second person of the eternal Godhead incarnated into flesh. As such, there are several things that Jesus was capable of doing that I am not capable of doing. There are several things that Jesus did at a particular point in redemptive history to make Himself known that are not necessary for me, as I do not play a role in redemptive history except as an enemy of God who received mercy and salvation by grace through faith.
Also, to be clear, Jesus "got results" 100% of the time. He may not have healed everyone (it's clear that He didn't, if for no other reason than that He didn't go to everyone while on earth) but He got results 100% of the time. He's God, after all. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
1/30/18 5:36 am
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| Re: Well OT , your original post tried to erroneously |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | Matthew indicates Jesus healed them ALL to PROVE ISAIAH'S PROPHECY OF ISaA 53:4 |
This is a really important point. Again and again, we see Jesus doing things in a specific way to fulfill prophecies from the Old Testament and to make it clear that He is the Son of God, come to take away the sins of the world. In this passage, Jesus healed everyone who came to Him -- and Matthew tells us why: to demonstrate that He is the Messiah that Israel has been waiting for.
In this narrative, it is inescapable that Jesus gloriously healed everyone who came to Him -- just as it is inescapable that in other narratives and other situations, He did not heal everyone in the areas where He went. As an example, consider the lame man in Acts 3. The Bible says that He was lame from His birth. Well, that wasn't but a few months after Jesus' death and resurrection, so clearly this man did not experience healing while Jesus was on earth, even though He was in Jerusalem the whole time. He did experience healing at the hands of Peter and John in Christ's name.
Anyway, back to Matthew 8. The WoFigesis of this passage is that Jesus today will heal everyone who comes to Him. I'm going to blow you away: I agree with that interpretation! If someone with a sickness or disease came to Jesus today as the people of Matthew 8 went to Him then, that person will be healed. There are untold numbers of saints from every tribe and tongue dying with illness today who are then coming to Jesus as the people of Matthew 8 went to Him, and are experiencing total and complete healing. But you and I are gonna have a hard time going to Jesus as the people of Matthew 8 did. The WoFigesis will tell us we can do that by answering an altar call or saying a prayer, but the Scripture doesn't support the assertion that that's the same thing as going to Him physically at this unique time in redemptive history. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
1/30/18 5:52 am
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| Dave... |
Aaron Scott |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | brotherjames wrote: | | Matthew indicates Jesus healed them ALL to PROVE ISAIAH'S PROPHECY OF ISaA 53:4 |
This is a really important point. Again and again, we see Jesus doing things in a specific way to fulfill prophecies from the Old Testament and to make it clear that He is the Son of God, come to take away the sins of the world. In this passage, Jesus healed everyone who came to Him -- and Matthew tells us why: to demonstrate that He is the Messiah that Israel has been waiting for.
In this narrative, it is inescapable that Jesus gloriously healed everyone who came to Him -- just as it is inescapable that in other narratives and other situations, He did not heal everyone in the areas where He went. As an example, consider the lame man in Acts 3. The Bible says that He was lame from His birth. Well, that wasn't but a few months after Jesus' death and resurrection, so clearly this man did not experience healing while Jesus was on earth, even though He was in Jerusalem the whole time. He did experience healing at the hands of Peter and John in Christ's name.
Anyway, back to Matthew 8. The WoFigesis of this passage is that Jesus today will heal everyone who comes to Him. I'm going to blow you away: I agree with that interpretation! If someone with a sickness or disease came to Jesus today as the people of Matthew 8 went to Him then, that person will be healed. There are untold numbers of saints from every tribe and tongue dying with illness today who are then coming to Jesus as the people of Matthew 8 went to Him, and are experiencing total and complete healing. But you and I are gonna have a hard time going to Jesus as the people of Matthew 8 did. The WoFigesis will tell us we can do that by answering an altar call or saying a prayer, but the Scripture doesn't support the assertion that that's the same thing as going to Him physically at this unique time in redemptive history. |
What healing miracles of Jesus do you think are off-limits because He is the Son of God and we aren’t? The apostles certainly had great success in healing. Certainly OUR faith might not be as strong as theirs...but that leads us again to the notion that it is not God’s will that we be sick, for He would heal if the needed faith were present (which I don’t have by the way). |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/30/18 6:27 am
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Carolyn Smith |
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Dave Dorsey |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | | We can always count on OTCP for an encouraging, uplifting post, can't we? |
It's not encouraging or uplifting to give people false hope in promises that God didn't make.
He is our healer, and one day everyone who believes on Him will experience total and complete wholeness, in His presence, for all of eternity. Until then, we groan inwardly as we wait for the fullness of our adoption as sons and daughters and the redemption of our physical bodies. It's the hope in which we were saved. It's not something we see now, because if we did, why would we hope for it? But we hope for what we do not see, and we wait for it with patience.
Until then, we will suffer. We'll suffer due to sin, due to the curse, due to the frailty of our bodies, and due to a hundred other things. But the sufferings of this present time are not even worth comparing to the glory that is to be revealed to us.
We know that God heals today, and we rejoice when He does so. We pray to Him that we might experience a measure of our coming inheritance now. But we can't guarantee that, because He didn't promise it. What He did promise is that He has predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He works all things together for our good, and that nothing can ever separate us from His love for us in Christ Jesus our Lord. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
1/30/18 6:47 am
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| Dave, perhaps this statement should be qualified |
bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | There are several things that Jesus did at a particular point in redemptive history to make Himself known that are not necessary for me, as I do not play a role in redemptive history except as an enemy of God who received mercy and salvation by grace through faith. |
[emphasis mine]
We do have a redemptive role, I believe.
2 Corinthians 5
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/30/18 9:31 am
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Dave Dorsey |
That's a great point, Bonnie. I thought about making that distinction as I was writing my post, but I didn't want to detract from the emphasis on Christ's unique and supreme role in redemptive history.
Nevertheless, you're exactly right. Our role in redemptive history is not as redeemers, but as enemies gloriously saved, who are now called and privileged to preach that grace to others. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
1/30/18 10:12 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | | We can always count on OTCP for an encouraging, uplifting post, can't we? |
Thanks, Carolyn, your confidence is much appreciated. BTW, do you ever have sickness in your family? If so, is it 100% of the time healed? If not, may I ask why? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/30/18 10:34 am
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| One of the problems with Dave's posts |
brotherjames |
are that Dave misunderstands just exactly how Jesus was functioning on this earth before His death & resurrection. While He certainly was fully God He was also fully man. He did NOT perform His miracles (healing, walking on water etc) as the Son of God but as a man FILLED with the Holy Spirit. There are no good records (only some spurious ones) of Him manifesting any miracles until AFTER He was baptized (filled with the Holy Spirit) as He came up out of the Jordan.
After that, and after being tested for 40 days, He immediately begins His public miraculous ministry. So much so that when John's disciples come to him and ask for John if He was the ONE (messiah) or not, He tells them:
Luk 7:20-23 KJV When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? (21) And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. (22) Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. (23) And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
So He uses miracles to affirm His claim of being the Messiah. We all agree up to this point. even in Luke 9 & 10 He sends out His disciples and tells them to do some things. Primarily among them was "Heal the Sick". HE doesn't say 1 out of 10 will be healed, merely Heal the Sick. Then in John 14 he makes an amazing statement to those same disciples (and I believe by extension to us afar off) :
Joh 14:11-14 KJV Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Now, how cruel would it be to tell His church (disciples/us) that we could do even greater works than He did if that was not the case? He would be a liar. I don't think He is. I know He is not! All the miracles He performed were as a man filled with the Holy Ghost. The early church believed that and manifest those works understanding Mark 16 (these signs will follow them that BELIEVE) - lay hands on the sick they WILL recover, cast out demons etc.
If there is any problem (and there is) in seeing healing manifested for ALL, it is NOT with Jesus, it is with us. I do think that Jesus had a much better relationship with the Father than I do or you do so His success rate was higher than mine but I expect 100% anything less is not what Jesus would want. I am sure His expectation and manifestation was 100%. HE took all our infirmities. He reported to us He only did what he SAW the Father doing. I don't believe God the Father would not want ALL healed any more than He would not want ALL saved.
As to the point that he passed by sick people like the man at the Beautiful Gate, perhaps so but ALL who came to Him were healed. He told us to pray that His Kingdom would come on this earth and His will would be done here as well. He wants earth to look like heaven. That's my mandate and goal. I know we don't always see it but that's the goal. IF you think somehow telling people God's will is to heal them all builds up FALSE hope only to lead to disappointment later then so be it. But I think to diminish the power and truth of God's Word to your experiences is false also. I would rather give people Hope in the truth of God's Word than in my meager experiences. Wouldn't you?
BTW Last Sunday 2 women from another city far away came to our church. They were desperate to be healed having each had long term physical problems. THey found us through SIRI of all things looking for a Holy Ghost, supernatural church that believes in healing for today. One was arthritic and had severe pain in her back from surgeries and the other had multiple problems including a broken arm. They expected God to do something.. He did, after prayer they both left here fully, completely healed - even the broken arm. I fully admit it doesn't always happen that way but Jesus did it. That's my Jesus. Who's yours? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/30/18 11:05 am
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| But Dave... |
Aaron Scott |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | That's a great point, Bonnie. I thought about making that distinction as I was writing my post, but I didn't want to detract from the emphasis on Christ's unique and supreme role in redemptive history.
Nevertheless, you're exactly right. Our role in redemptive history is not as redeemers, but as enemies gloriously saved, who are now called and privileged to preach that grace to others. |
I ask you again which healing miracles are off-limits to us because we are not the unique Son of God?
Is it raising the dead? Nope. The apostles did that.
Is it casting out devils? Nope.
Is it praying for people who are otherwise sick? Sure didn't seem that way in Acts, did it?
You have indicated that we should not expect such things because Jesus is the Son of God and we are not. But you are not telling us just what we CAN'T do. I mean, Jesus even gave us the power to REMIT SINS!!! So, exactly what is it we shouldn't expect to see?
I do not claim that we see it. I DO CLAIM that we should aspire to it, and that it IS something that can be attained (even though I am a million miles from there). There is no reason to think that we shouldn't have a success rate AT LEAST as good as the apostles. After all, we've had an additional 2000 years to hear the Word, gain insight, etc. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/30/18 11:41 am
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| Re: One of the problems with Dave's posts |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | are that Dave misunderstands just exactly how Jesus was functioning on this earth before His death & resurrection. While He certainly was fully God He was also fully man. He did NOT perform His miracles (healing, walking on water etc) as the Son of God but as a man FILLED with the Holy Spirit. |
This is the standard WoF/NAR understanding of the kenosis. Jesus set aside all of His divinity and functioned as a man empowered by the Holy Spirit -- just as we can do today. This is the central place where I (and historic Christian orthodoxy along with me) disconnect from WoF/NAR theology.
The kenosis did involve a masking of Christ's divine nature and great humility in the assumption of humanity (which is what Phil 2 speaks of), but that emptying was not a giving up of any of His attributes of divinity. The text simply doesn't say that. That view is not supported by Scripture or the church's historic understanding of Scripture, but it is indeed the necessary linchpin of WoF/NAR theology.
I don't expect any of these links to be convincing to you (and please don't take that as an insult; I just mean it to spare you from the necessity of response unless you would like to do so) but for the sake of others who may be watching this discussion, here are a couple of links, one short and one long, discussing more:
https://carm.org/kenosis
https://bible.org/article/empty-god |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
1/30/18 12:00 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| While I am most definitely not WoF or NAR, as a classical Pentecostal, I affirm kenosis as well. I see it demonstrated in the Scriptures. God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and with power, and He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the Devil, for God was with him, said the Apostle Peter. He performed His miracles as an anointed man of God—Whom Scripture says God gave the Spirit without measure, to be sure. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12813
1/30/18 12:05 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | While I am most definitely not WoF or NAR, as a classical Pentecostal, I affirm kenosis as well. I see it demonstrated in the Scriptures. God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and with power, and He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the Devil, for God was with him, said the Apostle Peter. He performed His miracles as an anointed man of God—Whom Scripture says God gave the Spirit without measure, to be sure. |
I'm not sure I agree precisely with your understanding of kenosis based on your post, but I agree with you in principle. There was clearly a masking of divinity, and though I don't believe Phil 2 teaches it, it's obvious that there was a setting aside or masking of some attributes of divinity, such as omnipresence, invisibility, perhaps at times omniscience, etc.
Where I believe the WoF/NAR understanding of the kenosis crosses into dangerous error is in the suggestion that He was for all intents and purposes not the Son of God during his earthly ministry, but was functioning as an anointed man and that anyone today can function in that same anointing if they will just draw close enough to the Father. I realize there is no intent to deny His deity or His unique role as the God-Man, but brotherjames (and others who hold to this view) indicate it as basically irrelevant when emphasizing their position that He "did NOT perform His miracles ... as the Son of God but as a man."
He performed His miracles as the God-Man, and that distinction is critically important in avoiding the errant WoF/NAR interpretation. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
1/30/18 12:11 pm
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