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Dave Dorsey |
| jimmyjon wrote: | | AMEN! from this quarter. (and I won't talk about the miracles I have witnessed and other ministers I know have witnessed) oh and yeah a lot of people didn't get healed but many did. How did that happen? Because we prayed Lord if it's your will you can but we don't really expect you to but if you would gee maybe you could. yep that produces results all right, |
It sounds like you're saying healing comes from your works. In the cases in which you saw people healed (I have also seen miraculous, unexplainable healings btw) it was because you pushed the right buttons on the machine so you could get the right result. Why didn't you do this the other times?
It sounds like you are mocking people who pray fervently and expectantly to a sovereign God and trust the results to Him.
If the results are in your hands, then why didn't you produce them in the cases in which you did not see healing? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/2/20 12:59 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
I once had a friend who had leukemia. Until his dying breath, he kept on confessing, “I am healed.†He died of the disease and as far as I can tell will only be physically healed of leukemia when he receives his glorified body. I have known several others just like this dear brother over the years who believed if they kept confessing themselves healed, they would eventually see healing manifest in their body, but alas, their healing awaits the resurrection now.
God does heal today, but it it doesn’t happen as often as WoF teachers claim it does, nor does it happen the way they claim it does. The Lord who heals us ultimately decides whether or not we receive a healing miracle in this life. Our mortal bodies will all grow old and die if Jesus’ return tarries. We are not in Heaven yet, and the last enemy (death) has not been destroyed yet. Neither has the flu virus or the Wuhan virus been destroyed, no matter how much Copeland may wish it were and claim it is. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12813
4/2/20 1:44 pm
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| This I know...a pastor in India who is a pastor to pastors |
caseyleejones |
| probably over a 100 or more...Whom I talk to fairly regularly told me that 75% of their converts and members in their 100+ churches came to the Lord due to a supernatural healing. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11796
4/2/20 3:35 pm
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| Your thoughts? |
caseyleejones |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | jimmyjon, I will leave you with this. Paul prays 41 prayers in the New Testament.
Can you find one in which he decrees and declares against a situation?
Can you find one in which he speaks to Satan or other forces of darkness and commands them or binds them?
Can you find one in which he is proclaiming, rather than petitioning? |
Acts 16
16 One day as we were going to the place to pray, we met a servant-girl who could tell what was going to happen in the future by a demon she had. Her owner made much money from her power. 17 She followed Paul and us crying out, “These are servants of the Highest God. They are telling you how to be saved from the punishment of sin.†18 She did this many days. Paul was troubled. Then he turned and said to the demon in her, “In the name of Jesus Christ, I speak to you. Come out of her!†At once it left her. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11796
4/2/20 3:37 pm
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| Copeland's Heresies |
FG Minister |
1. You are a God
2. Words can create like God created
3. Any born-again person could have saved mankind - not just Jesus
4. Jesus didn't claim to be God.
All of the above are documented facts. How much false teaching and outright heresy will one tolerate? Evidently, a lot, based upon comments I read here. Let me ask some of you who defend Mr. Copeland - if I make one large bowl of banana pudding and put only one teaspoon of cat feces in it -- are you still willing to eat it? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
4/2/20 3:40 pm
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autumn trees twice dead |
The true sadness is all of the flock who don't know to apply 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - test all things- and Acts 17:11 concerning the Bereans. These easily fall for the "sound good" pitch by those rich televangelists. If they had been properly trained they would be able to compare what they hear with God's word and not fall for non-biblical practices.
Ephesians 5:11 tells us -And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. -- Notice it says let us not go into that unfruitful works so we must be able to discern that they are unfruitful and to make the righteous judgement to not do them or believe them. Then it says expose the works. It doesn't say people,but the works. We must use church correction and after correction,restoration to the false teachers. That is, if they repent and turn. Many are afraid to administer church correction in fear people might stop coming to church or kick the preacher out.
We often think that 1 Cor. has the only lists of gifts but Ep. 4 has a list:
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Instead of just encouraging folks to come, we must equip them to be mature in the faith so they can make righteous judgements based on the Bible. We must properly teach them the word so they can mature. The purpose is not for us/them to get an emotional blessing, but to have a biblical base to know right from wrong as Hebrews 5 tells us
11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
We need to seek the Lord and determine whether we are entertaining or equipping the flock. Perhaps we need to start deeper discipling ministries. For those who cut out Bible study services, we need to bring them back. We need to return to prayer meetings where people pray instead of just brief mentionings of concerns offered up.
That is why the gifts in Eph. 4 were given. We must equip others to do the work of the ministry and Hebrews 5 train them so they will lean on God to judge between right and wrong.
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Just trying to slide another one by ya |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 50
4/2/20 3:42 pm
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| Re: Your thoughts? |
Dave Dorsey |
| caseyleejones wrote: | Acts 16
16 One day as we were going to the place to pray, we met a servant-girl who could tell what was going to happen in the future by a demon she had. Her owner made much money from her power. 17 She followed Paul and us crying out, “These are servants of the Highest God. They are telling you how to be saved from the punishment of sin.†18 She did this many days. Paul was troubled. Then he turned and said to the demon in her, “In the name of Jesus Christ, I speak to you. Come out of her!†At once it left her. |
Casey... come on. You know that's not an example of what I was asking about, nor an example of what the WOF folks do when they decree and declare.
You know that's not what Copeland is doing in this video. I love ya brother but come on. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/2/20 5:09 pm
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Da Sheik |
| If KC doesn’t set off your heresy alarm, then likely it needs new batteries. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
4/2/20 5:50 pm
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Cojak |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | If KC doesn’t set off your heresy alarm, then likely it needs new batteries. |
  
Nicely said.
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24284
4/2/20 10:48 pm
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Link |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Cojak wrote: | | Was God looking the other way when these men were declaring the VIRUS to be gone and a Christian got infected. Hundreds of people prayed but Eddie will die if his doctor is correct. |
I'm very sorry to hear this, Cojak. Praying for you and your family.
This gets to the point of why these charlatans deserved to be marked and called out. Listen to Copeland here! He sounds like he thinks he is God! Declaring judgment on COVID-19? Ordering it to crawl on its belly? Saying "it is finished"? These are things that God does, not man. It is blasphemy.
These waterless clouds have no power to declare an end to COVID-19. Only God does. And I pray sincerely that our loving Father will do so, in the name of our Lord Jesus. They could be doing the same -- humbly praying to God. But instead they declare and decree, like the super apostles they are.
It is infuriating, and so sad that a Lutheran has to be the one calling them out because so many charismatics refuse to do so. |
If someone is really prophesying the word of God, it is not blasphemy to say what God says.
What prophecies has Kenneth Copeland got right? We sure can find some very odd and disconcerting quotes about his doctrine, to say the least.
Copeland has also promoted a messed up view of 'prophesying.' Basically, teaching people to declare what they want to happen and calling that 'prophesying.' I went to a service one time where the man commanded the audience "Prophesy!", "Prophesy!" He was Charismatic. I don't know if he was a WOFer per se, but that was a very Kenneth Copeland thing to do.
I can't stand to watch more than a few minutes of Copeland. But I remember hearing him on TV in the other room in an empty Baptist Student Center lounge that had a free phone when I was in college. Or maybe it was another time. Anyway, he had this idea that decreeing what you wanted to happen was prophesying because Ezekiel told the dry bones to live, and was prophesying.
But Ezekiel was actually prophesying. He was prophesying the actual word of the Lord. The Lord commanded him to prophesy to the bones, and he said, "Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones". It wasn't just something Ezekiel wanted, and deciding to 'speak to the mountain' in faith. The word came from the Lord. He spoke what the Lord gave him to say.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
4/3/20 1:20 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Link wrote: | | If someone is really prophesying the word of God, it is not blasphemy to say what God says. |
But as you point out, that's not what he's doing. He is not even suggesting he is prophesying God's words. He is working from his belief (which is clearly and long established) that he is a little god and has the power to command these things.
Your Ezekiel example is a good one. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/3/20 3:12 am
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autumn trees twice dead |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | The authority Jesus had and gave his disciples over disease was never used or demonstrated in the way Copeland and Co try to exert it. Why don’t we see in the Scriptures Jesus or Peter or Paul ever binding all cancer in general, for instance? Surely that would have been so much better and more effective, if it were what Jesus meant.
They had authority and we have authority to heal—instance by instance, as the Lord empowers and wills it. What we don’t ever see in Scripture is anything like Copeland and Co try to do, to ‘bind the Coronavirus’ from a geographic region. |
Copeland, Hagin and their ilk, took their doctrines from the meta physicist E.W. Kenyon. They not only took his doctrines (JDS, POwer of words, etc.) but they stole the tittles to his books without giving credit.
I thought these teachings were basically passe, but they show their heads in times of crisis as people will buy any type of hope. Years ago Chuck Smith wrote "Charisma vs. Charismania,", Gordon Fee wrote The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels. and one of the most thorough, scholarly works done in this area is the book A Different Gospel, written by D.R. McConnell of Oral Roberts University,
Years ago around 1981 or 82, David Wilkerson, on Pentecost Sunday, at SMU gave this sermon. Forty years later is well worth a listen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcqKW4WF-uQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9613ZvTe6uY
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Just trying to slide another one by ya |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 50
4/3/20 7:08 am
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autumn trees twice dead |
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Dave Dorsey |
So good. Thank you for sharing this. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/3/20 9:05 am
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