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 Re: brotherjames asks how Jesus could have healed Lazarus without being there... |
diakoneo |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | He should read this scripture:
John 4:
46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
47 When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death.
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.
52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
Verse 48 might be an interesting verse to discuss as well. |
Lazarus wasn't healed?
John 11:44 And Lazarus came—bound up in the gravecloth, his face muffled in a head swath. Jesus told them, “Unwrap him and let him go!â€
I think he was! |
He was, in that he who was dead was brought back to life. He was not healed of the desease or malady that killed him though. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/28/18 10:21 am
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| Wrong |
brotherjames |
| Of course he was healed of the disease that killed him otherwise he'd still be deaf, duh.. |
Acts-celerater
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1/28/18 2:03 pm
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| Re: Wrong |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| brotherjames wrote: | | Of course he was healed of the disease that killed him otherwise he'd still be deaf, duh.. |
So ats what killed ole Lazarus, he couldn’t hear good an it killed him.  |
Acts-pert Poster
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1/28/18 2:14 pm
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| Re: Wrong |
bonnie knox |
| brotherjames wrote: | | Of course he was healed of the disease that killed him otherwise he'd still be deaf, duh.. |
What does "duh" mean? Lazarus could have died from a virus; then the virus would have died from a lack of living host tissue in the 4 days Lazarus lay dead. So, no, it doesn't follow that just because he was resurrected, he was healed of whatever malady he had. We don't know what the malady was, and there is nothing in the scripture that says he was healed of the malady.
Lazarus was resurrected.
Last edited by bonnie knox on 1/28/18 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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1/28/18 2:24 pm
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| Re: Wrong |
bonnie knox |
'At happened to a feller not far from Pikeville. Momma told him to shut up, and he thought she said stand up.
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | brotherjames wrote: | | Of course he was healed of the disease that killed him otherwise he'd still be deaf, duh.. |
So ats what killed ole Lazarus, he couldn’t hear good an it killed him. |
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1/28/18 2:26 pm
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| Re: brotherjames asks how Jesus could have healed Lazarus without being there... |
bonnie knox |
Brad, what I was addressing was the point that brotherjames seemed to be making--which seemed to be suggesting that Jesus needed to be there physically in order to heal Lazarus, which he obviously did not have to be (as attested by the scripture below). It is quite obvious also, that Jesus was glad to make a point by the resurrection.
| bradfreeman wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | He should read this scripture:
John 4:
46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
47 When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death.
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.
52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
Verse 48 might be an interesting verse to discuss as well. |
Lazarus wasn't healed?
John 11:44 And Lazarus came—bound up in the gravecloth, his face muffled in a head swath. Jesus told them, “Unwrap him and let him go!â€
I think he was! |
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1/28/18 2:32 pm
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| OTCP...change the title of the thread |
Aaron Scott |
| The very best you can say is that: "Jesus MAY not have healed all." That's all the scriptures will allow you to say, so, in the interest of keeping you from making the same sort of mistakes that you claim the WOF make, change your title. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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1/28/18 4:39 pm
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| Re: brotherjames asks how Jesus could have healed Lazarus without being there... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | He should read this scripture:
John 4:
46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
47 When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death.
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.
52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
Verse 48 might be an interesting verse to discuss as well. |
Lazarus wasn't healed?
John 11:44 And Lazarus came—bound up in the gravecloth, his face muffled in a head swath. Jesus told them, “Unwrap him and let him go!â€
I think he was! |
Sure - he was healed after he died. As we all will be.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16641
1/29/18 8:20 am
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| Re: brotherjames asks how Jesus could have healed Lazarus without being there... |
Aaron Scott |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | He should read this scripture:
John 4:
46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
47 When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death.
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.
52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
Verse 48 might be an interesting verse to discuss as well. |
Lazarus wasn't healed?
John 11:44 And Lazarus came—bound up in the gravecloth, his face muffled in a head swath. Jesus told them, “Unwrap him and let him go!â€
I think he was! |
Sure - he was healed after he died. As we all will be. |
Being raised from the dead is actually BETTER than being healed. And Lazarus MUST have been healed of whatever killed him...otherwise, he would have dropped dead shortly after being raised from the dead, since whatever sickness he was suffering with had taken him to death's door.
Think of it like me stopping time right when a bullet is a quarter inch from your head. Well, as soon as time starts again, you'll be dead. UNLESS I do something about that bullet. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/29/18 8:57 am
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| I'm not sure if you read my post, Aaron |
bonnie knox |
Think of this. You contract an influenza virus and die of the flu. You are stuck in a stony cave for 4 days. The viruses (to which your body had already built a little immunity) are all DEAD by now. You are resurrected without being actually healed of the flu, but you are not sick now because the viruses haven't been resurrected.
I'm not saying this (the second time) just to speculate on what malady killed Lazarus. My point is that one cannot just assume that being resurrected is the same as being healed of the malady with which one died. (I thought I had already said that.)
| Quote: | Being raised from the dead is actually BETTER than being healed. And Lazarus MUST have been healed of whatever killed him...otherwise, he would have dropped dead shortly after being raised from the dead, since whatever sickness he was suffering with had taken him to death's door.
Think of it like me stopping time right when a bullet is a quarter inch from your head. Well, as soon as time starts again, you'll be dead. UNLESS I do something about that bullet. |
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1/29/18 9:27 am
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| Re: I'm not sure if you read my post, Aaron |
bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Think of this. You contract an influenza virus and die of the flu. You are stuck in a stony cave for 4 days. The viruses (to which your body had already built a little immunity) are all DEAD by now. You are resurrected without being actually healed of the flu, but you are not sick now because the viruses haven't been resurrected.
I'm not saying this (the second time) just to speculate on what malady killed Lazarus. My point is that one cannot just assume that being resurrected is the same as being healed of the malady with which one died. (I thought I had already said that.)
| Quote: | Being raised from the dead is actually BETTER than being healed. And Lazarus MUST have been healed of whatever killed him...otherwise, he would have dropped dead shortly after being raised from the dead, since whatever sickness he was suffering with had taken him to death's door.
Think of it like me stopping time right when a bullet is a quarter inch from your head. Well, as soon as time starts again, you'll be dead. UNLESS I do something about that bullet. |
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Resurrection isn't a healing? That's a reach. He was restored to HEALTH.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/29/18 10:50 am
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| Bonnie... |
Aaron Scott |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Think of this. You contract an influenza virus and die of the flu. You are stuck in a stony cave for 4 days. The viruses (to which your body had already built a little immunity) are all DEAD by now. You are resurrected without being actually healed of the flu, but you are not sick now because the viruses haven't been resurrected.
I'm not saying this (the second time) just to speculate on what malady killed Lazarus. My point is that one cannot just assume that being resurrected is the same as being healed of the malady with which one died. (I thought I had already said that.)
I wasn't trying to dispute you--I was just using your post because it was being discussed.
It would seem, though, that the killing of the virus (if that was indeed what happened) would be the same thing that happened if Lazarus had been healed in a more conventional manner; namely: the virus would have died or otherwise disappeared.
If you come back from the dead, I don't hardly see how we can say a person wasn't healed (at least in this instance). We can say he was not healed CONVENTIONALLY, but I don't think we have the grounds for saying he was not healed, period. Make sense?
| Quote: | Being raised from the dead is actually BETTER than being healed. And Lazarus MUST have been healed of whatever killed him...otherwise, he would have dropped dead shortly after being raised from the dead, since whatever sickness he was suffering with had taken him to death's door.
Think of it like me stopping time right when a bullet is a quarter inch from your head. Well, as soon as time starts again, you'll be dead. UNLESS I do something about that bullet. |
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/29/18 11:13 am
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| Interesting... |
Quiet Wyatt |
If we say Lazarus’ being restored to life was indeed a miracle of healing, it then follows that the resurrection of the just at Christ’s coming will likewise be a manifestation of His healing-in-the-atonement ministry. Those of us who deny the always-guaranteed-healing-in-this-life WoF doctrine have often pointed out that healing is only absolutely guaranteed for the believer in the resurrection, and that we may suffer sickness while living in a mortal corruptible body.
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:20-23 NASB |
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1/29/18 11:46 am
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| Quiet Wyatt |
Aaron Scott |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | If we say Lazarus’ being restored to life was indeed a miracle of healing, it then follows that the resurrection of the just at Christ’s coming will likewise be a manifestation of His healing-in-the-atonement ministry. Those of us who deny the always-guaranteed-healing-in-this-life WoF doctrine have often pointed out that healing is only absolutely guaranteed for the believer in the resurrection, and that we may suffer sickness while living in a mortal corruptible body.
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:20-23 NASB |
Just to be clear, I am not arguing that it was a miracle of healing. I see it for what it was--a resurrection. HOWEVER, I am stating that a subset of that event was that, indeed, he was healed.
THE resurrection is different. It is the resurrection into a glorified body. Lazarus, as has been pointed out in other times that we have discussed this point, was resurrected into the same, earthly body as he had died with. That is, he would die again.
I don't know just how far I can take (or prove) this distinction, but it is how I see it. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/29/18 11:51 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Yes, the resurrection of the just at Christ’s coming will be of the highest order, in that their bodies will then be raised incorruptible, into a glorified body that shall never die. In raising Lazarus, Jesus was revealing Himself as the I AM who IS the resurrection and THE LIFE, which miracle was a foreshadowing of the glorious permanent resurrection which is to come. |
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1/29/18 12:01 pm
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bonnie knox |
Okay, I'm just coming back to this thread and was getting ready to respond, but I see Quiet Wyatt has said something along the lines of what I was thinking.
I will add that I can't imagine Lazarus being sick as he walked out of the tomb, but I think even the WOF'ers believe that God has put natural processes into the body to heal itself. Most people expect to get over colds, for example, without extraordinary divine intervention. Yet, it could be argued that the immune system is a miracle. (It overwhelms me to look at how marvelously made the systems of the body are.)
So, all I'm saying is that is entirely possible that Jesus resurrected Lazarus (the first time) and that Lazarus walked forth from the tomb restored to health without the supernatural healing that is required to keep the WOF narrative intact. I'm not interested in quibbling over terms just for the terms' sake. I want to look at the whole picture of whether or not healing in the atonement means that we are guaranteed healing from every sickness while on this earth without the intervention of doctors.
What I see is the tension of still living in a fallen world with the promise of ultimate healing in the final resurrection. I see any healing or resurrection that Jesus performed while here on earth as serving to illustrate that, not just an end in itself. That certainly doesn't keep me from asking for healing, and I don't think it shows that I have a lack of faith in God's ability to heal. |
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1/29/18 12:30 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Yes, the resurrection of the just at Christ’s coming will be of the highest order, in that their bodies will then be raised incorruptible, into a glorified body that shall never die. In raising Lazarus, Jesus was revealing Himself as the I AM who IS the resurrection and THE LIFE, which miracle was a foreshadowing of the glorious permanent resurrection which is to come. |
Wait, hang on. So you're saying that in chapter 11, John's principle purpose was to draw our attention to the revelation of Jesus Christ and His redemptive work? That it actually wasn't an instructional text about how to minister healing to people, but that it was a narrative text focused on the eternal significance of Jesus' coming for all who would have faith in Him?
Good heavens, next you'll be telling me that the miracle of the loaves and fishes wasn't supposed to teach how giving money can result in a multiplied meeting of one's financial needs. |
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1/29/18 12:43 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Yes, the resurrection of the just at Christ’s coming will be of the highest order, in that their bodies will then be raised incorruptible, into a glorified body that shall never die. In raising Lazarus, Jesus was revealing Himself as the I AM who IS the resurrection and THE LIFE, which miracle was a foreshadowing of the glorious permanent resurrection which is to come. |
I would also add that He was expressing His love for His friends and faith in His Father as well.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/29/18 1:57 pm
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| Re: Four term fallacy? |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | OTCP, do you believe that there were some that Jesus prayed for who did not get healed...or is your claim more along the lines that for some reason Jesus didn’t deal with everyone, so some were left out and not healed?
To say that Jesus didn’t heal all that got to him is very different from saying that Jesus didn’t get to them all. So, which is the claim you are desperate to make so that you can justify the belief that God wants some of us sick...but wants all of us saved? |
Everyone Jesus prayed for to be healed was indeed healed.
He did not, however, heal everyone. He didn't eradicate sickness in Israel while on earth. He certainly didn't go back to the crowd who was looking for him in Mark 1. He chose to go elsewhere to preach the Gospel. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/29/18 7:28 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| diakoneo wrote: | | Newsflash: the Gospel is more important than your temporary physical healing! |
Indeed it is! And every single person who is healed of one, two or a hundred things, ages, gets sick, and dies. |
Acts-pert Poster
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1/29/18 7:30 pm
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