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 evangelists |
wayne |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | I'm sure that a lot of preachers preach against these guys and some invite them to their church. |
If I find out the preacher won't come unless they receive a certain amount, I will not use them. I understand the need to have funds to operate but I have always been taught, Go and do the work and God will provide the means. To some this may sound small minded but, I guess Jesus was small minded as well.
I had and evangelist that I really admired as a kid and when I became a pastor, I looked him up and invited him to come and speak for us. The whole time he was with us, he talked about his car(Mercedes) needing work and spoke about how he had no money(lived in a resort town) and refused to do anything other kind of work other than preaching. When I spoke to him about it in love and asked him why he did not take on a job he went on facebook and started talking about how pastors don't understand evangelists and how hard it is to survive. I guess he failed to realize that this pastor started the church he pastors and still has a full-time job and still ministers as often as possible. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
1/6/16 8:52 am
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Pastor Nations |
I'm going to defend these guys a little bit.
I've flown private a few times out of necessity and I know the difference.
Not just televangelists, but some mega-church pastors now use private jets.
Some of these guys work very, very hard with full schedules.
They don't get off work at 5:00, go home and watch television.
There is no way they could keep their schedules and fly commercial.
Their ministry and church budgets are multiples greater than most of our churches.
(I know of one mega-church that has 250 Sunday School teachers)
Without commenting on each of their doctrines, I am sure there is a certain amount of faith needed for the finances of their ministries.
Btw, some of the jets used by evangelists and mega-church pastors are not Gulfstreams - and can be purchased used for as little as 250,000. A decent used Citation can go for 250-400.
250,000 would buy a one bedroom condo in San Fran, L.A., or New York. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
1/9/16 12:19 pm
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diakoneo |
| Pastor Nations wrote: | I
Btw, some of the jets used by evangelists and mega-church pastors are not Gulfstreams - and can be purchased used for as little as 250,000. A decent used Citation can go for 250-400.
250,000 would buy a one bedroom condo in San Fran, L.A., or New York. |
True but how much does it cost to keep and maintain that plane. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/9/16 12:44 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| diakoneo wrote: | | Pastor Nations wrote: | I
Btw, some of the jets used by evangelists and mega-church pastors are not Gulfstreams - and can be purchased used for as little as 250,000. A decent used Citation can go for 250-400.
250,000 would buy a one bedroom condo in San Fran, L.A., or New York. |
True but how much does it cost to keep and maintain that plane. |
There is a cost comparison, for example, you must also factor in how many people travel.
Does spouse and staff travel - how much are multiple commercial tickets, etc.
In strictly business terminology:
The income opportunities are greater than the expenses. (hopefully)
For example, a machine shop cannot sell their products unless they first purchase the machines, and then generate enough income to cover all business related costs, including maintenance (and maybe payments on the purchased equipment)
The machine shop can decline to purchase equipment, but then they wouldn't have any income.
The evangelists in question cannot minister as often as they do without these jets.
They can eliminate the jets, but then eliminate the number of their engagements. (Whether or not that is a good thing, is not for me to determine, lol)
These planes are just tools for them to do their trade.
How effective would our ministries be without cars for transportation, sound systems, copy machines, buildings, etc.?
It is similar in their perspective, just a larger scale. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
1/9/16 1:23 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | The evangelists in question cannot minister as often as they do without these jets. |
Minister? The ones who don't want to be touched by the "plebeian masses" as one commenter put it. The ones who will do it as long as they can live a life of luxury that greatly exceeds those whom they "minister" to?
And I laugh at the comment about how hard they work and that they don't get off at 5:00 and go watch TV. It's real obvious they have such a hard life; so much harder than the ones they "minister" to, lol. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
1/9/16 3:05 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | The evangelists in question cannot minister as often as they do without these jets. |
Minister? The ones who don't want to be touched by the "plebeian masses" as one commenter put it. The ones who will do it as long as they can live a life of luxury that greatly exceeds those whom they "minister" to? |
I'm not defending all of their doctrine, or their lifestyle, but I also do not consider all evangelists and mega-church pastors as having the same amount of integrity and genuineness.
However, I am pretty sure they would say it is more effective to preach to as many people as possible and minister in the altars than to get bogged down in an airport for hours at a time.
Also, surely they get plenty of "widow's mites", but they are very, very dependent on large, wealthy contributors - some with lifestyles that are greater than the ministers.
| bonnie knox wrote: | | And I laugh at the comment about how hard they work and that they don't get off at 5:00 and go watch TV. It's real obvious they have such a hard life; so much harder than the ones they "minister" to, lol. |
I didn't say they have a hard life - I said that they work very hard.
Right or wrong, many of these guys are very driven people, pushing it for 24/7 type guys. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
1/9/16 3:41 pm
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bonnie knox |
I know you said "work hard." What is it about their work that is hard?
And why does that mean they should have expensive private jets?
Lots of people work very hard and drive modest cars and live in modest homes. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
1/9/16 3:52 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | I know you said "work hard." What is it about their work that is hard? |
In 2009 a large televangelist reportedly laid off 200 people from their headquarters. It wasn't reported how many employees they retained.
Ministry itself is hard work. Some people put more into it than others.
It is, of course, very rewarding, but it is work.
It is not working in the coal mine, but it is work.
| bonnie knox wrote: | | And why does that mean they should have expensive private jets? |
That is what I posted about. And in a strictly business sense, expensive is relative to income.
Btw, some of these ministries have a larger budget than our denomination's headquarters.
They also give away more money to homeless and to missions than most of our annual church budgets.
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Lots of people work very hard and drive modest cars and live in modest homes. |
Sure, I knew a man that worked during the Depression. He walked for two miles to get there, pushed wheelbarrows on a metal wheel all day, and got a dollar a day.
There are also people that are in jail, or on welfare, and win the lottery.
The book "The Millionaire Next Door" points out that there are plenty of Americans with a million dollars in assets driving a used car and living in a modest house.
There are ministers that make lots of money, and some that work two jobs and are the biggest tithers at the church they pastor.
I can't speak for everybody, but I'm pretty sure that there are lots of pastors that would like to see an increase in their income.
Take into consideration skillsets, demographics, budgets, etc. Where and how do we start to define where to draw the limit line? - and who decides? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
1/9/16 4:36 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Where and how do we start to define where to draw the limit line? - and who decides? |
We use the common sense that God gave us and we call out people who are twisting the gospel in order to live a life of luxury at the expense of people who have much less. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
1/9/16 4:46 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | Where and how do we start to define where to draw the limit line? - and who decides? |
We use the common sense that God gave us and we call out people who are twisting the gospel in order to live a life of luxury at the expense of people who have much less. |
I agree with that statement 1,000%
The converse is also true - not every minister with a plane and nice house has obtained those things in that manner. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
1/9/16 5:04 pm
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| Had to sell his Rolexes |
Pastor Nations |
Btw, I'm friends with a well known evangelist (not a plane guy)
Last year he had to sell both of his Rolexes in order to make house payments... |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
1/9/16 5:14 pm
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| Being distracted |
Herman Knapp |
| Question: How many of us stay in our office until the last minute because we don't want to be DISTRACTED by "stuff" before the service? |
Friendly Face
Posts: 117
1/10/16 3:52 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
| Pastor Nations wrote: | I'm going to defend these guys a little bit.
I've flown private a few times out of necessity and I know the difference.
Not just televangelists, but some mega-church pastors now use private jets.
Some of these guys work very, very hard with full schedules.
They don't get off work at 5:00, go home and watch television.
There is no way they could keep their schedules and fly commercial.
Their ministry and church budgets are multiples greater than most of our churches.
(I know of one mega-church that has 250 Sunday School teachers)
Without commenting on each of their doctrines, I am sure there is a certain amount of faith needed for the finances of their ministries.
Btw, some of the jets used by evangelists and mega-church pastors are not Gulfstreams - and can be purchased used for as little as 250,000. A decent used Citation can go for 250-400.
250,000 would buy a one bedroom condo in San Fran, L.A., or New York. |
Where can you find a Citation that dont have Sopwith Camel written on it for 250-400k? Heres a tally chart that shows what ownership of a few different planes will cost.
http://corporatejetinvestor.com/articles/the-costs-of-a-business-jet-312/ |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
1/13/16 9:52 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | | Pastor Nations wrote: | I'm going to defend these guys a little bit.
I've flown private a few times out of necessity and I know the difference.
Not just televangelists, but some mega-church pastors now use private jets.
Some of these guys work very, very hard with full schedules.
They don't get off work at 5:00, go home and watch television.
There is no way they could keep their schedules and fly commercial.
Their ministry and church budgets are multiples greater than most of our churches.
(I know of one mega-church that has 250 Sunday School teachers)
Without commenting on each of their doctrines, I am sure there is a certain amount of faith needed for the finances of their ministries.
Btw, some of the jets used by evangelists and mega-church pastors are not Gulfstreams - and can be purchased used for as little as 250,000. A decent used Citation can go for 250-400.
250,000 would buy a one bedroom condo in San Fran, L.A., or New York. |
Where can you find a Citation that dont have Sopwith Camel written on it for 250-400k? Heres a tally chart that shows what ownership of a few different planes will cost.
http://corporatejetinvestor.com/articles/the-costs-of-a-business-jet-312/ |
Too many to list, there are plenty, depending on year, make, model, etc:
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1359905/1974-cessna-citation-500
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1379593/1973-cessna-citation-500
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1279537/1974-cessna-citation-500-sp-lw
As I said, they don't all own Gulfstreams, some own lower end older models, and some middle-range.
Importantly, prob most have loan payments or are leased. And they just factor that in as an expense.
Many jet owners only own shares of jets.
Some fly their own planes.
Again costs of payments, maintenance, etc. is relative to income and/or income potential.
I know an evangelist that had his own prop plane, owned property with a landing strip and did his own maintenance. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
1/14/16 12:53 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
When my Dad was pastoring in the 50s and 60s here in the Atlanta area, he always worked a job along with pastoring. Nobody worked harder than my Dad at both jobs. He gave more to the church than the church paid him. So, his vehicles came from his own money. But, he refused to own a Cadillac because of the perception that he was taking too much money from the church even though he worked another job for the money.
He was an honorable man who loved God and loved people. He would leave the he's in the middle of the night and drive an hour to a hospital to be with a family in need. The people didn't bother him when they needed him to pray. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
1/14/16 1:28 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | When my Dad was pastoring in the 50s and 60s here in the Atlanta area, he always worked a job along with pastoring. Nobody worked harder than my Dad at both jobs. He gave more to the church than the church paid him. So, his vehicles came from his own money. But, he refused to own a Cadillac because of the perception that he was taking too much money from the church even though he worked another job for the money.
He was an honorable man who loved God and loved people. He would leave the he's in the middle of the night and drive an hour to a hospital to be with a family in need. The people didn't bother him when they needed him to pray. |
Some of these evangelists and mega-church pastors are honorable men with integrity, and some not so much.
But, financially they have more supporters than most of our history.
Joel Osteen (not a fan, btw) has 12,500,000 likes on Facebook. That many people would fill Yankee Stadium 250 times and Madison Square Garden 700 times.
These televangelists routinely preach to thousands of people, multiple times a week.
Btw, I drove to the church today in a used car that needs an alternator. But I don't have 2,500 people show up to hear me preach (yet, lol) |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
1/14/16 2:34 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| The point is, it makes me sick to hear that someone would be bothered by people wanting them to pray for them. Get in another business. Those people that are bothering you pay you an ungodly amount of money. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
1/14/16 2:41 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | it makes me sick to hear that someone would be bothered by people wanting them to pray for them. Get in another business. |
I second that emotion!!!!
But in what other business could these salesmen make that much money? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/14/16 2:53 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Those people that are bothering you pay you an ungodly amount of money. |
Praying for them is one issue, but there is no guarantee the people in an airport would be financial supporters.
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | The point is, it makes me sick to hear that someone would be bothered by people wanting them to pray for them. Get in another business. |
Of course. Ministers should not feel bothered by people wanting to pray for them.
I think they were trying to make a point about time management.
| Herman Knapp wrote: | | Question: How many of us stay in our office until the last minute because we don't want to be DISTRACTED by "stuff" before the service? |
On our local level, there are times when the church service is about to start and a certain number of people came to church for worship, preaching, prayer, etc.
The pastor steps out of his office, ready to enter the sanctuary to minister - and there is somebody that wants the pastor's time right then and there, irrespective of how long it takes or how many people are waiting.
It is difficult to handle the situation, and truthfully, many ministers avoid the possibility of this happening by entering the sanctuary through side doors.
Right or wrong, in the jet-flyers world, I think that is the point they were trying to make about not wanting to be bothered.
Besides the time saving advantages, private jets have their own private terminal ... |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
1/14/16 3:08 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| I am troubled by any support of this clip. I'll leave it at that. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
1/15/16 7:23 am
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