Actscelerate.com

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16637 **10/26/15 8:35 am**

[quote="John Jett"]

Aaron Scott

John Jett...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6039 **10/26/15 8:48 am**

I must disagree.

While a man must not be harsh, bullying, etc., he MUST be in control of his home if he is to pastor.

That doesn't mean slapping or being harsh. But it could mean that there are things that change until things line up.

Fortunately, as I said, few men have this problem. However, I do remember one man whose name is NEVER MENTIONED without reference to his foolish first wife. It ended in divorce anyway...and I doubt any jury would have convicted him had it ended in murder (probably would have worked better for him in the Church of God anyway).

She was KNOWN for harshness. IN PUBLIC, etc. Yet this man was a good man who did a good job preaching the gospel. But his wife undermined his ministry in a big way. Who wants to have such a good man come for revival when his wife might have accompanied him?

I don't know that this man COULD have done anything. But he probably should have done something. At the least, perhaps NEVER taking his wife along.

This is an extreme example--and it called for a more extreme response. In most cases, I imagine most husbands and wives just SAY something and it gets fixed.

But the OPTION should be there to do SOMETHING in such cases.

John Jett

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4955 **10/26/15 9:25 am**

Aaron, the OP questioned what submission looked like, not what "control" looked like. If you change the question to what does "control" look like, then I think the article is a very good example.

Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24282 **10/26/15 9:29 am**

Aaron Scott

John Jett...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6039 **10/26/15 12:52 pm**

I thlink the point is that if a wife will not submit (something she must do voluntarily), then it becomes a matter of "what are the consequences for making this marriage a problem?"

I agree with Cojak: Just WHAT are the "somethings" a person would do (at least without getting killed by his wife)?

But while we might not know the "something," it seems clear we cannot do "nothing"! To tolerate that is to invite chaos in some situations, and certainly distress in others.

John Jett

Re: John Jett...

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4955 **10/26/15 1:00 pm**

Old Time Country Preacher

Re: John Jett...

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **10/26/15 1:55 pm**

Old Time Country Preacher

Re: John Jett...

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **10/26/15 1:56 pm**

Dave Dorsey

Re: Question to Aaron

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **10/26/15 6:05 pm**

Link

Re: Question to Aaron

Link · Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **10/26/15 6:09 pm**

Old Time Country Preacher

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **10/26/15 6:19 pm**

I tried to discipline momma one time, but after 15 minutes in the corner in time out, hey, she said she was not gonna stay in time out one minute longer. Ats when I realized some things aint worth fist fightin about.

Carolyn Smith

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5919 **10/26/15 7:52 pm**

Disciplining your wife puts you in the role of parent rather than husband. If the wife is out of order such as Aaron described, certainly it needs to be addressed in the privacy of their home or in counseling.

How would you suggest disciplining a wife?

A lot of the reason submitting is such a touchy subject is that many men (even preachers) have used it as an excuse to abuse and manipulate their wives. A lot of awful things have happened in the name of submission. Certainly wives have also used manipulation to control their husbands. Neither of which are acceptable in a Christian marriage.

And yes, Link, women are fallen creatures, but I think men are also. Smile

And doesn't the famous Ephesians 5 passage start with, "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God..."? Somehow this part is never discussed.
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Aaron Scott

Tom Sterbens...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6039 **10/27/15 4:59 am**

First, this points out the absolute necessity of pen names! Now, I am being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but the truth is that there is a decided chill in the air when you talk about controversial subjects using your real name.

But there is another thing that happens when we use our real names.... It is that we "line up" with what is the safest or most self-beneficial course of action. Even those who use their real names to offer "controversial" positions might do it only to be thought of as "visionary" or of being a "maverick."

But to your point....

Are you thinking to "shame" me into "submission"? (SMILE) That if you turn the screws tight enough, you might force me to my corner? There are things I no longer write of or speak of now that I do not use a pen name, but do I perhaps believe the same way? ALMOST CERTAINLY. So, even if you were to post such a thing to force a concession, my position would not change.

For 19 years now, words have worked between my wife and I, each of us yielding as needed. But precisely BECAUSE words work, there is no need to escalate. My whole issue has been WHEN WORDS DON'T WORK. When a wife, a child, a colleague, a direct report, an associate pastor, a Sunday School teacher, etc. will not heed, THEN what do you do?

How come it is your job, as a pastor, to deal with all of these other people, but it is magically NOT your job to deal with a wife that is out of control? Is it fear? Is it an issue with political correctness? It certainly is not Biblical to do NOTHING, is it?

If a wife commits adultery isn't it a consequence to perhaps divorce her? That is certainly Biblical (even if not mandated). EVEN WORDS are a form of discipline! But what happens when even words are not enough? If there is nothing more that can be done, then we may need to hire back a few folks we've let go, since we took it beyond words, right?

Let me ask you a question too. Let's say that a successful pastor has a wife who was jeopardizing his ministry through abrasive, aggressive behavior, by belittling his authority, or worse, through seductive behavior...how should he approach it?

Let's assume they have already talked about it.

He has now come to you for advice.

Should he quit? What?

Did God place Paul and Barnabas any less together than he might have placed a married couple? And yet....

I don't know what I would do, but I would DO SOMETHING! If the relationship is worth fighting for, it's worth taking every measure that you can reasonably take. You would do it for your kids--why would we not also do it for our wives?

How would you discipline an associate pastor in a redemptive way? That is, in a way that betters his ministry/standing, without firing him?

Why would a man not use similar methods with his wife if necessary?

Why would he allow her to destroy their ministry? How do you think God would feel about that? Do you think he'd be OK if a church was torn apart because a man refused to rein in his wife? I'm sure "that Jezebel" in Revelation might have been someone's wife. Maybe even the pastor's wife! And yet Jesus is not happy that they have "suffered" her.

Sometimes, a wife needs a break from the church responsibilities. After all, stress is often a cause of issues.

I know that if I were the husband of the wife I had mentioned in an earlier post, I would NOT be taking her with me to ANY REVIVAL, right?

I certainly would not be giving her free rein with my paycheck. If she has her own, that's another thing.

In fact, if that man had given his wife a good spanking, well, I for one wouldn't have blamed him any more than I would have for disciplining a child.

If a wife acts like a moody teenager with a rotten attitude, well....

But as I have said, I assume that most of us have good wives and good marriages. Words work. But make no mistake, my friend, if you address something to your wife with words, you are disciplining her (discipling and discipline are spelled so very closely, aren't they?). You are simply working to resolve it with words instead of anything else. If she heeds, fine. If not, I dare say you will address it again more firmly...and if need be, at some point, you will do something beyond words.

Unless you're willing to surrender.

If we are blessed with wonderful marriages, we cannot fathom such thing, perhaps. But it would be wrong to deny them to husbands who, try as they might, did not win the marriage lottery.

We can blame THEM. But make sure we save a place for us to be blamed if a child takes the wrong path. After all, it MUST be our fault, right?

Nick Park

Re: Tom Sterbens...

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1021 **10/27/15 6:50 am**

Aaron Scott

Nick Park...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6039 **10/27/15 7:04 am**

If you have a sickness in your body, you'd deal with it, right? If we are one flesh, and a wife's actions (or the husband's actions, for that matter) threaten the health and happiness of the body, then it has to be dealt with.

Further, a wife who is not submissive makes a joke of the whole "one flesh" thing. It's like having an arm that is out of control and slapping you. Better do something about that.

Indeed, though, it ought ALWAYS to start with gentleness, prayer, and conversation. The whole notion of going further is ONLY ONLY ONLY if these earlier attempts do not work.

Any man that goes to DEFCON 4 or takes the nuclear option at the earliest stage has serious issues. But at some point, if necessary (and only if necessary) a man should be just a ready as Christ is to escalate.

Jesus said that he gave the "Jezebel" space to repent. But now, in Revelation, he is taking it to another level: He is calling out the CHURCH for allowing it take place while they apparently did nothing.

Any man who has had a spat with his wife ALREADY has used an unintentional form of discipline (I use the word lightly). He likely has done the withdrawn thing, or the silence thing, or staying out later, or not showing normal affection for his wife. There is a coldness. Same happens when wives are upset with a husband.

It is an attempt to cause a person to change the behavior that you do not agree with (you could be wrong, but still, you don't agree with it).

Nature Boy Florida

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16637 **10/27/15 7:29 am**

Aaron,
Thanks for this discussion.

I too am interested in what the steps of escalation should be after step 1...until the ultimate decision...

Step 1:
You: You know. honey, I don't think it looked good for you to act that way at church in front of our members.
Wife: I don't care anymore.

Step 2: ???
Step 3: ???
Step 4: ???
...
...
...
Step X:
You: Alright, I guess I'm going to have to give you a good spanking.
...
...
Step X-2:
You or Wife: Nothing left to do but get a divorce.
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John Jett

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4955 **10/27/15 8:14 am**

Aaron,
After you implement this disciplinary measure to force your wife to meet your expectation of submission, what then are the disciplinary steps to prescribe to the wife to assure that the husband meets her expectation of him loving her as Christ loved the church?

Should she start by showing him the execution method that she has in mind?

Aaron Scott

NBF and John Jett...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6039 **10/27/15 10:09 am**

NBF, what is your escalation plan if you had staff that responded that way? It might be removal from a place of leadership. It might be some structured downtime. It might be a lot of things.

We need not think that "discipline" means some sort of physicality, etc. Unless your wife is attacking you with an axe, that's probably not the way to go, right?

But YOU ALREADY "punish" your wives when we give them the cold shoulder for a day because of whatever.f And they "punish" us by doing the same if we didn't act in a manner they thought appropriate. The action is meant to make them apologize or feel the consequences of their actions, right? So most of us already use such methods, we just don't call it "discipline." (BOOK IDEA: "None Dare Call It Discipline!")

Jett, your wife ALREADY DOES THAT. If you aren't showing her love and affection, you're going to know about it. It could be the silent treatment, it could be "I've got a headache." But it's there, and all husbands eventually know it.

To "force" submission is an oxymoron. It must be given. But that doesn't mean that we cannot make it more desirable to give it than to not give it. Just as we try to make our kids aware that it is better to obey than not to obey, we can do it without "forcing" anything.