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 Honest Question About Spirit Baptism |
Da Sheik |
| Is there any scripture that directs Christians (believers) to pray to receive the Holy Spirit? The General and Pauline epistles seem devoid of any such nomenclature. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
5/22/24 8:32 am
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FLRon |
Ephesians 5:18-maybe?
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“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Voddie Baucham |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 782
5/22/24 4:12 pm
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Da Sheik |
A command to be filled, no doubt. But an imperative to "receive" the Spirit? I'm finding it harder and harder to defend our assertion that people should receive the Holy Spirit in stages. I just can't make it rightly divide. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
5/22/24 5:22 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
This used to be painted on the wall left of the stage in the old Wimauma tabernacle:
Acts 19:2
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
Aaron Scott - what was painted on the other side?
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16641
5/23/24 7:42 am
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Da Sheik |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | This used to be painted on the wall left of the stage in the old Wimauma tabernacle:
Acts 19:2
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? |
Have you ever read this verse in another version than the KJV? The whole house of cards falls apart. Further, if you read this in context (something we Pentecostals seldom do), you will discover those to whom Paul was speaking were not Christians. They were disciples of John Baptist. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
5/23/24 8:33 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
Of course, anyone familiar with the development of classical Pentecostal doctrine knows that our doctrine of the baptism in the Spirit is primarily based on the narrative accounts in the Book of Acts, and that the epistles were written to believers who had already received the baptism. One also doesn’t find direct appeals to be born again in the epistles for the same reason, but that doesn’t negate the validity or necessity of regeneration.
That said, Galatians 4:6 is at least consistent with a subsequence of reception of the Spirit following regeneration:
Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
May I highly recommend an excellent book by a non-Pentecostal, (a Calvinist, even!) who came to affirm a subsequence to the reception of the baptism in the Holy Spirit after regeneration? https://www.amazon.com/Joy-Unspeakable-Power-Renewal-Spirit/dp/0877884412 |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12813
5/23/24 12:45 pm
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Da Sheik |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Of course, anyone familiar with the development of classical Pentecostal doctrine knows that our doctrine of the baptism in the Spirit is primarily based on the narrative accounts in the Book of Acts, and that the epistles were written to believers who had already received the baptism. One also doesn’t find direct appeals to be born again in the epistles for the same reason, but that doesn’t negate the validity or necessity of regeneration.
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This is my primary concern. Acts is a narrative book. Luke is not setting forth imperatives for the New Testament church. There are plenty of things in Acts that are not normative. Even in the Acts narratives there are diversities in how people received the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2 they are sitting down when tongues of fire appeared. In Acts 8 there is no mention of tongues at all but they received by the laying on of hands of the Apostles. In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit fell upon those listening to Peter's sermon. In Acts 19 there are tongues and prophecy after laying hands of the Apostle Paul. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
5/25/24 9:25 am
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Da Sheik |
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (NASB 1995)
In this passage, Paul clarifies some misunderstandings that exist to the present day. Notice that Paul says ALL believers have been baptized with the Spirit (upon regeneration). Not all believers speak in tongues though, this he makes clear.
1Co 12:30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? (NASB 1995)
Even in the original Greek, the question anticipates a negative answer. But for some reason, we are trying to force everyone that they must speak in tongues or they don't "have the baptism". I think it's really flimsy hermeneutics.
I am not "anti-tongues". I believe and have experienced it myself. But I think this is a conversation that needs to take place even though it's terribly uncomfortable. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
5/25/24 9:36 am
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sheepdogandy |
The difference is between the gift of tongues and the evidence of tongues.
The gift of tongues requires an interpretation.
The evidence of tongues does not.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7306
5/25/24 1:33 pm
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| Re: Honest Question About Spirit Baptism |
Aaron Scott |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | Is there any scripture that directs Christians (believers) to pray to receive the Holy Spirit? The General and Pauline epistles seem devoid of any such nomenclature. |
1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
While this does not say to pray for the Holy Ghost, I am confident that desiring spiritual gifts--especially prophecy--has an element of prayer. If we would pray for these gifts of the Spirit, it seems logical....
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
This one, while not mentioning the Holy Ghost, clearly indicates that we can/could/should pray for waht we want from the Lord. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
5/25/24 6:03 pm
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Aaron Scott |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Of course, anyone familiar with the development of classical Pentecostal doctrine knows that our doctrine of the baptism in the Spirit is primarily based on the narrative accounts in the Book of Acts, and that the epistles were written to believers who had already received the baptism. One also doesn’t find direct appeals to be born again in the epistles for the same reason, but that doesn’t negate the validity or necessity of regeneration.
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This is my primary concern. Acts is a narrative book. Luke is not setting forth imperatives for the New Testament church. There are plenty of things in Acts that are not normative. Even in the Acts narratives there are diversities in how people received the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2 they are sitting down when tongues of fire appeared. In Acts 8 there is no mention of tongues at all but they received by the laying on of hands of the Apostles. In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit fell upon those listening to Peter's sermon. In Acts 19 there are tongues and prophecy after laying hands of the Apostle Paul. |
While some of the things mentioned in Acts are "first-time events," and, indeed, do not set forth imperatives for New Testament norms, all of it still serves as examples to us. We know that the literal Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was a one-time event--but that the pouring out of the Holy Ghost on others is an example we can take from it. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
5/25/24 6:06 pm
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Aaron Scott |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | This used to be painted on the wall left of the stage in the old Wimauma tabernacle:
Acts 19:2
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
Aaron Scott - what was painted on the other side? |
Nature Boy Florida, there was something there, if I recall, but I didn't take the sneaky way onto or off the stage but maybe a half-dozen times in 20+ years of back-to-back attendance. Although I'm confident that you snuck in a few times after loitering around the back instead of being inside--WHERE I WAS--and where the Lord was moving. It's a shame.
What signs were posted on various trees around the campground? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
5/25/24 6:10 pm
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| "one time event" or "first time event" |
Mat |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Da Sheik wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Of course, anyone familiar with the development of classical Pentecostal doctrine knows that our doctrine of the baptism in the Spirit is primarily based on the narrative accounts in the Book of Acts, and that the epistles were written to believers who had already received the baptism. One also doesn’t find direct appeals to be born again in the epistles for the same reason, but that doesn’t negate the validity or necessity of regeneration.
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This is my primary concern. Acts is a narrative book. Luke is not setting forth imperatives for the New Testament church. There are plenty of things in Acts that are not normative. Even in the Acts narratives there are diversities in how people received the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2 they are sitting down when tongues of fire appeared. In Acts 8 there is no mention of tongues at all but they received by the laying on of hands of the Apostles. In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit fell upon those listening to Peter's sermon. In Acts 19 there are tongues and prophecy after laying hands of the Apostle Paul. |
While some of the things mentioned in Acts are "first-time events," and, indeed, do not set forth imperatives for New Testament norms, all of it still serves as examples to us. We know that the literal Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was a one-time event--but that the pouring out of the Holy Ghost on others is an example we can take from it. |
Was the Acts 2 Day of Pentecost a "one time event" or a "first time event"? If a one time event (singular, not to be repeated) that was complete in itself, why would if be remarkable that later on in Acts believers are noted for having the same experience as those on "the" Day of Pentecost had.
Mainline churches/Christians take offense when Pentecostals speak of a Baptism of the Holy Spirit beyond what they consider the norms. However, if the fullness of the Spirit is present through water baptism, or conformation when the Bishop lays hands on you, or when you are born again, why is it that so many of those mainline churches have an absences of the operation or manifestation of the Spirit. I would suggest that yes, the Acts 2 Day of Pentecost was the first outpouring of the Baptism of the Spirit, but not the singular "one and done" as some suggest.
The question is raised, what was the spiritual position of the Infant Church - Apostles and believers, who we read of in Acts 1. Were they incomplete in their salvation experience?
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1988
5/26/24 9:07 pm
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