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 Reforming COG (Cleveland)--church ownership |
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I have a topic for you. I don't know much about how COG politics works, but if one were to want to change the COG policy to where the denomination no longer has any ownership of church buildings, how could this be done. The 'one' who does so could be a pastor, bishop, etc. What would the procedure be?
Is there a way the proposal could come from the floor in the general assembly and get voted on if denominational officials opposed it? Is there a committee of denominational officials that could kill it before it gets to the floor?
While it might lead to shrinking the denomination, I could see how the change would make the organization more grass-roots and solve a lot of problems in the long run. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/16/24 11:41 am
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sheepdogandy |
Those in power would move heaven and earth to stop it.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7303
1/16/24 2:20 pm
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| A suggestion.... |
Aaron Scott |
First, yes, things can get brought to the floor that are on the agenda. There is some process/possibility for that.
HOWEVER...
I used to kind of bellyache about the denomination owning the church property. But I now think that, barring hurtful, wrongful behavior on the part of the state office (e.g., closing a small church to fund a more politically expedient church), this denominational ownership helps ensure that a rogue pastor or congregation cannot sully the name of the Church of God, etc.
There is, I think, another way, though--but it's not completely different from ownership...and that is PARTIAL ownership. If the COG owned 51%, well, I don't know what good that would do for the local church. And if the COG owned 10%, I don't know what good that would do the denomination.
It's just a fact that there are churches that spiral out of control in terms of doctrine or actions. Consider the following scenario:
A pastor is having an affair. The COG tells him he must resign and enter into disciplinary restoration. He refuses. The congregation like that man and want to be "forgiving," so they insist he remain.
You get the idea.
At the same time, and in passing, when such happens, it's not just the man that is punished. He family can fall into poverty and all sorts of things. They don't deserve that. Sin happens. But it's still the case that it would not be wise for the pastor to be able to continue on without having to first step back from the pastorate. And only church ownership makes that truly enforceable. Yes, he may move across the road, but at least it's ANOTHER church and not the COG. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
1/17/24 2:29 am
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| Re: A suggestion.... |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | ... I now think that, barring hurtful, wrongful behavior on the part of the state office (e.g., closing a small church to fund a more politically expedient church), this denominational ownership helps ensure that a rogue pastor or congregation cannot sully the name of the Church of God, etc.... . |
The "hurful/wrongful behavior on the part of the state office" is exactly why my family left the COG. It happened in our church. All that is necessary is for one guy on a board to have it in for the pastor and they will eventually push him out despite what the congregation thinks who's paying the bills. It was a pretty sick and twisted experience for this Lee alum and 4th gen COG boy. I have family who have been at the VERY top in the COG, and I still consider myself COG by doctrine and practice, but haven't been back for 12 years now. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
1/17/24 9:16 am
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| Re: A suggestion.... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | ... I now think that, barring hurtful, wrongful behavior on the part of the state office (e.g., closing a small church to fund a more politically expedient church), this denominational ownership helps ensure that a rogue pastor or congregation cannot sully the name of the Church of God, etc.... . |
The "hurful/wrongful behavior on the part of the state office" is exactly why my family left the COG. It happened in our church. All that is necessary is for one guy on a board to have it in for the pastor and they will eventually push him out despite what the congregation thinks who's paying the bills. It was a pretty sick and twisted experience for this Lee alum and 4th gen COG boy. I have family who have been at the VERY top in the COG, and I still consider myself COG by doctrine and practice, but haven't been back for 12 years now. |
Sorry to hear this.
But - your story is not unique.
There are some guys who make it to state overseer - people fawn over them like they are something great - and they got no business leading a team of three janitors.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16622
1/17/24 9:35 am
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| Some denominations are very ... |
Mat |
Some denominations are very litigious when it comes to congregations taking ownership of their property and leaving. Some have boosted in the past the COG had never lost a church property, and I have met some former COG folks who would say that the denomination was very litigious. I think this "keep it at any cost" policy has changed, but I would say the ghost of Llewellyn still sits at the state and general council tables. And yes, there are many former GOG ministers and their families (and congregations) who still remember what was done.
Each denomination is different, with the Episcopal Church having the well earned reputation of practicing a "scorched earth" policy towards congregations which want to withdrawal from the denomination with their property. On the other end of the spectrum is one of the Presbyterian denominations which allow congregations to leave with property in hand if the vote is something like 90% for going (you might want to clean up your membership roll before the vote is announced). Some state laws only require a 51% membership vote to leave, or at least at one time that was the case.
What will break the financial back of any denomination is keeping buildings with high debt while losing the congregations. Other building will be lost to rising insurance premiums (if you can get it) and maintenance cost where the congregation has died out and the state office is now paying the bills. There will be a point where the denomination can't even give some buildings away.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1984
1/17/24 9:53 am
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sheepdogandy |
What do the Scriptures tell us.
The early Church voted.
"seek out seven men"
How?
They voted.
Sovereign Congregations are the best way to protect doctrinal integrity.
"the only rule for doctrine and discipline"
Works for us since 1989.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7303
1/17/24 1:37 pm
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| Re: A suggestion.... |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | ... I now think that, barring hurtful, wrongful behavior on the part of the state office (e.g., closing a small church to fund a more politically expedient church), this denominational ownership helps ensure that a rogue pastor or congregation cannot sully the name of the Church of God, etc.... . |
The "hurful/wrongful behavior on the part of the state office" is exactly why my family left the COG. It happened in our church. All that is necessary is for one guy on a board to have it in for the pastor and they will eventually push him out despite what the congregation thinks who's paying the bills. It was a pretty sick and twisted experience for this Lee alum and 4th gen COG boy. I have family who have been at the VERY top in the COG, and I still consider myself COG by doctrine and practice, but haven't been back for 12 years now. |
I hear you, Uncle JD. I have known of, and seen, some heavy-handedness that put a bad taste in people's mouths. I did not hear of this sort of thing from my father, a pastor in the COG. He never had anything bad to say about the COG. But others did.
Thankfully, I believe that Actscelerate and other social media had had a positive effect. I still remember, years ago, when someone posted (under a pen name) about some short of shenanigans that was going on in one state. There was a time when only a the wronged party and a few friends would even know that things had taken place. But with the internet, it was now the case that not only could scores of ministers know, but so could Headquarters--and they knew they would look bad if they didn't rein in someone who was doing the wrong thing.
So information shed some light on nonsense.
There are men who had NO BUSINESS being state overseers, I'm sure. Personally, I never met any such overseer, but I've heard stories. Even overseers that I felt had done wrong in some way did not often seem as if they did it out of malicious intent or just rottenness. They were just trying to help out a friend, say, and stepped on the toes of someone else.
What some people don't grasp is that overseers are DEFINITELY NOT superior spiritually. They are just men. Like all of us. Some are rougher around the edges that others--just like pastors. I think we are especially offended because of two things:
1) We kind of do have higher expectations of higher officials, and
2) They have the power to do things that can be hurtful. We can THINK of things that might hurt people; they can actually make it happen. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
1/17/24 3:46 pm
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| Added a Bathroom! |
FG Minister |
I remember my days in the COG when the church had wanted to add a bathroom to their parsonage for many years. They mentioned it to me and of course I said, "let's do it." In the mid-80's that addition only cost $11,000 and we did not borrow any money. We paid cash.
Guess what? The District Overseer heard about it and called the State Overseer because I did not get permission from the DO or the SO. I honestly did not know one needed their approval when you weren't borrowing money. The SO called me and gave me a lecture. He then required a letter from me to him that was to state "I was on his team and not a rebel." I complied (proving I was not a rebel)! This ridiculous incident is not why I left the COG, but it added to the sour taste that eventually caused me to make my exit. BTW - I have never looked back. Non-denominational is the only way to fly - for me. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
1/17/24 4:22 pm
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| Re: A suggestion.... |
Link |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | First, yes, things can get brought to the floor that are on the agenda. There is some process/possibility for that.
HOWEVER...
I used to kind of bellyache about the denomination owning the church property. But I now think that, barring hurtful, wrongful behavior on the part of the state office (e.g., closing a small church to fund a more politically expedient church), this denominational ownership helps ensure that a rogue pastor or congregation cannot sully the name of the Church of God, etc.
There is, I think, another way, though--but it's not completely different from ownership...and that is PARTIAL ownership. If the COG owned 51%, well, I don't know what good that would do for the local church. And if the COG owned 10%, I don't know what good that would do the denomination.
It's just a fact that there are churches that spiral out of control in terms of doctrine or actions. Consider the following scenario:
A pastor is having an affair. The COG tells him he must resign and enter into disciplinary restoration. He refuses. The congregation like that man and want to be "forgiving," so they insist he remain.
You get the idea.
At the same time, and in passing, when such happens, it's not just the man that is punished. He family can fall into poverty and all sorts of things. They don't deserve that. Sin happens. But it's still the case that it would not be wise for the pastor to be able to continue on without having to first step back from the pastorate. And only church ownership makes that truly enforceable. Yes, he may move across the road, but at least it's ANOTHER church and not the COG. |
The A/G can pull the ordination of preachers that support LGBT. They dealt with a preacher going liberal in Texas a while back. I haven't followed upon the outcome, but they can't stay A/G doing that stuff. The A/G tends to be run kind of like Baptists, as I understand it, with boards that can hire or fire pastors.
I prefer to stick as close to what we see in the New Testament as possible-- a group of elders/overseers who pastor the flock of God. If one sins, the others can deal with him, instead of the one dictator who goes astray as you describe secretly telling the secretary or the female teen youth leader that she is performing services that greatly help him in his ministry (wink wink) and that God doesn't mind, while telling the congregation and the yes-man board not to touch the Lord's anointed, that they are rebellious if they leave and under a curse if they don't tithe.
Of course the Bible doesn't mention churches owning buildings. They met in homes like those of Aquilla and Priscilla, Nympha, and probably Gaius (mine host and of the whole church) and Philemon. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/17/24 6:05 pm
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| Re: Some denominations are very ... |
Link |
| Mat wrote: | Some denominations are very litigious when it comes to congregations taking ownership of their property and leaving. Some have boosted in the past the COG had never lost a church property, and I have met some former COG folks who would say that the denomination was very litigious. I think this "keep it at any cost" policy has changed, but I would say the ghost of Llewellyn still sits at the state and general council tables. And yes, there are many former GOG ministers and their families (and congregations) who still remember what was done.
Each denomination is different, with the Episcopal Church having the well earned reputation of practicing a "scorched earth" policy towards congregations which want to withdrawal from the denomination with their property. On the other end of the spectrum is one of the Presbyterian denominations which allow congregations to leave with property in hand if the vote is something like 90% for going (you might want to clean up your membership roll before the vote is announced). Some state laws only require a 51% membership vote to leave, or at least at one time that was the case.
What will break the financial back of any denomination is keeping buildings with high debt while losing the congregations. Other building will be lost to rising insurance premiums (if you can get it) and maintenance cost where the congregation has died out and the state office is now paying the bills. There will be a point where the denomination can't even give some buildings away.
Mat |
When I was in Hawaii, I knew some UCC folks who were conservative. They said the further east you go, the further crazy liberal you got. In Hawaii, they had their ethnic churches, like the Hawaiian, Chinese, and Japanese congregations. Towards the east were former congregations of the pilgrims that had gone mad liberal. The church the queen used to go to across from the old palace is UCC. The pastor threatened to leave the church if they voted in favor of letting the facility, used for weddings, to be used for gay weddings, and won the vote. There were some Charismatics, including some former participants in Brownsville, who felt led to go there. They would go to an all-night prayer meeting for revival and such there that started before we left.
Based on conversations there, I got the impression that they were totally congregational and they could vote to leave the denomination. I could imagine a Pentecostal or other kind of group could attend, then get membership, vote, and decide to join the A/G or Vineyard or whatever group, vote in a new pastor, vote to leave the UCC and take the building with them. It's a wonder any UCCs are left if that is the case. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/17/24 6:13 pm
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| Link? |
Mat |
Link,
Was the UCC you referred to in Hawaii the church in Maui that did not burn in the recent fire?
As to the UCC, around here UCC is very liberal (into Social Justice, etc), and if I remember right, its the denomination Obama was/is a member of.
I did not know there were any UCC left that were conservative or Charismatic.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1984
1/18/24 8:12 am
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| Link.... |
Aaron Scott |
| Link wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | First, yes, things can get brought to the floor that are on the agenda. There is some process/possibility for that.
HOWEVER...
I used to kind of bellyache about the denomination owning the church property. But I now think that, barring hurtful, wrongful behavior on the part of the state office (e.g., closing a small church to fund a more politically expedient church), this denominational ownership helps ensure that a rogue pastor or congregation cannot sully the name of the Church of God, etc.
There is, I think, another way, though--but it's not completely different from ownership...and that is PARTIAL ownership. If the COG owned 51%, well, I don't know what good that would do for the local church. And if the COG owned 10%, I don't know what good that would do the denomination.
It's just a fact that there are churches that spiral out of control in terms of doctrine or actions. Consider the following scenario:
A pastor is having an affair. The COG tells him he must resign and enter into disciplinary restoration. He refuses. The congregation like that man and want to be "forgiving," so they insist he remain.
You get the idea.
At the same time, and in passing, when such happens, it's not just the man that is punished. He family can fall into poverty and all sorts of things. They don't deserve that. Sin happens. But it's still the case that it would not be wise for the pastor to be able to continue on without having to first step back from the pastorate. And only church ownership makes that truly enforceable. Yes, he may move across the road, but at least it's ANOTHER church and not the COG. |
The A/G can pull the ordination of preachers that support LGBT. They dealt with a preacher going liberal in Texas a while back. I haven't followed upon the outcome, but they can't stay A/G doing that stuff. The A/G tends to be run kind of like Baptists, as I understand it, with boards that can hire or fire pastors.
I prefer to stick as close to what we see in the New Testament as possible-- a group of elders/overseers who pastor the flock of God. If one sins, the others can deal with him, instead of the one dictator who goes astray as you describe secretly telling the secretary or the female teen youth leader that she is performing services that greatly help him in his ministry (wink wink) and that God doesn't mind, while telling the congregation and the yes-man board not to touch the Lord's anointed, that they are rebellious if they leave and under a curse if they don't tithe.
Of course the Bible doesn't mention churches owning buildings. They met in homes like those of Aquilla and Priscilla, Nympha, and probably Gaius (mine host and of the whole church) and Philemon. |
Link, pulling the ordination of a pastor doesn't stop the error...if he can stay right there and keep right on preaching. It may not stop it regardless, but at least it will be difficult in that other facilities will have to be found, etc. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
1/18/24 9:52 am
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| Re: Link.... |
Link |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Link wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | First, yes, things can get brought to the floor that are on the agenda. There is some process/possibility for that.
HOWEVER...
I used to kind of bellyache about the denomination owning the church property. But I now think that, barring hurtful, wrongful behavior on the part of the state office (e.g., closing a small church to fund a more politically expedient church), this denominational ownership helps ensure that a rogue pastor or congregation cannot sully the name of the Church of God, etc.
There is, I think, another way, though--but it's not completely different from ownership...and that is PARTIAL ownership. If the COG owned 51%, well, I don't know what good that would do for the local church. And if the COG owned 10%, I don't know what good that would do the denomination.
It's just a fact that there are churches that spiral out of control in terms of doctrine or actions. Consider the following scenario:
A pastor is having an affair. The COG tells him he must resign and enter into disciplinary restoration. He refuses. The congregation like that man and want to be "forgiving," so they insist he remain.
You get the idea.
At the same time, and in passing, when such happens, it's not just the man that is punished. He family can fall into poverty and all sorts of things. They don't deserve that. Sin happens. But it's still the case that it would not be wise for the pastor to be able to continue on without having to first step back from the pastorate. And only church ownership makes that truly enforceable. Yes, he may move across the road, but at least it's ANOTHER church and not the COG. |
The A/G can pull the ordination of preachers that support LGBT. They dealt with a preacher going liberal in Texas a while back. I haven't followed upon the outcome, but they can't stay A/G doing that stuff. The A/G tends to be run kind of like Baptists, as I understand it, with boards that can hire or fire pastors.
I prefer to stick as close to what we see in the New Testament as possible-- a group of elders/overseers who pastor the flock of God. If one sins, the others can deal with him, instead of the one dictator who goes astray as you describe secretly telling the secretary or the female teen youth leader that she is performing services that greatly help him in his ministry (wink wink) and that God doesn't mind, while telling the congregation and the yes-man board not to touch the Lord's anointed, that they are rebellious if they leave and under a curse if they don't tithe.
Of course the Bible doesn't mention churches owning buildings. They met in homes like those of Aquilla and Priscilla, Nympha, and probably Gaius (mine host and of the whole church) and Philemon. |
Link, pulling the ordination of a pastor doesn't stop the error...if he can stay right there and keep right on preaching. It may not stop it regardless, but at least it will be difficult in that other facilities will have to be found, etc. |
So what? Churches are in the Bible. Denominational HQs are not. Why should this other entity own a churches property? How does that make sense? The local church are typically the ones who pay for the property. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/18/24 10:12 am
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| Re: Link? |
Link |
| Mat wrote: | Link,
Was the UCC you referred to in Hawaii the church in Maui that did not burn in the recent fire?
As to the UCC, around here UCC is very liberal (into Social Justice, etc), and if I remember right, its the denomination Obama was/is a member of.
I did not know there were any UCC left that were conservative or Charismatic.
Mat |
The one I mentioned is in Honolulu, on Ohau, not on Maui. It practically across the street from the palace, or at least the palace grounds. The queen could have walked there. One of the kings went to an Anglican church.
I get the impression that the UCC tends to be pro faux social justice on the mainland or the east coast, with some being into liberation theology or whatever. It's scary. In Hawaii, they seemed more conservative, or at least some of them were. A pastor helping out with a Foursquare church plant had been UCC. He told me about the conservative churches in Hawaii. I think the denomination went left wing on the east end while the west end stayed more the same. But they are very congregational, so I think even method of baptism may be up to the congregation. I don't get their not leaving the denomination, though.
I heard a UCC preacher on TV around 2009 in Ohio. Some preacher was on local TV while I was waiting for the family to get ready for church. He preached a good expositional sermon. It turns out he was at a UCC. I was surprised. I saw another sermon where I think he misused some slang unknowngly saying God 'gets off' on this or that-- that was cringeworthy. I don't think he was aware of how else the term was used.
I looked it up on line and there is the Fellowship of Charismatic Christians in the United Church of Christ.
The church across from the former palace (what was a palace before what was basically a coup d'etat with some support from US military soldiers in spite of a peace treaty) is not Charismatic. There were just some Charismatics in it and that visited attending the all night prayer meeting, and some Pentecostal/Charismatics, or at least two, who believed God wanted them to go there.
I don't really have a problem with the UCC saying, "God still speaks" if they are really hearing God instead of attributing left-wing evil libertinism to God. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/18/24 10:23 am
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| Re: Some denominations are very ... |
Link |
| Mat wrote: | | Some denominations are very litigious when it comes to congregations taking ownership of their property and leaving. Some have boosted in the past the COG had never lost a church property, and I have met some former COG folks who would say that the denomination was very litigious. |
What would the procedure be to try to get a resolution passed at the GA that the COG (Cleveland) obey I Corinthians 6 when it comes to suing brethren? |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/18/24 10:25 am
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| Re: Some denominations are very ... |
Mat |
| Link wrote: | | Mat wrote: | | Some denominations are very litigious when it comes to congregations taking ownership of their property and leaving. Some have boosted in the past the COG had never lost a church property, and I have met some former COG folks who would say that the denomination was very litigious. |
What would the procedure be to try to get a resolution passed at the GA that the COG (Cleveland) obey I Corinthians 6 when it comes to suing brethren? |
Link,
As to local church property, I don't see most denominations letting go easily of the local church buildings they control (or office buildings, campgrounds, campuses, etc), as most financial systems are based on the local church support of the leadership levels. Also, there is a view that if property is sold, such as a local church which no longer operates, the proceeds can be used for some other aspect of the leadership levels operation.
Considering how most ecclesiastical courts are constituted, a departing congregation or minister who faces disciplined, generally doubts there is a unbias nature to the court's ruling. So they do not accept the ruling, which in turn frees the denomination to say, "well, they did not submit to the church court (according to the minutes) so we had no choice but to take them to civil court." Then those being taken to civil court reply, "they (the denomination) took us to civil court and we had no choice but to defend ourselves and counter sue."
Does the COG, or any denomination, really need an assembly ruling to not take a brother to civil court since it is in the Bible? When it comes to power, position and property, the rules will always favor the denomination.
Let's see how the Travis Johnson matter is handled - charges could be ruled unfounded, or there could be a reprimand which he accepts, or they could go as far as ruling he be removed from ministry. Removal would most likely result in there being a large independent church called "Pathway." After which both sides will feel they were in the right.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1984
1/19/24 7:26 am
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| Re: Some denominations are very ... |
Link |
| Mat wrote: | | Link wrote: | | Mat wrote: | | Some denominations are very litigious when it comes to congregations taking ownership of their property and leaving. Some have boosted in the past the COG had never lost a church property, and I have met some former COG folks who would say that the denomination was very litigious. |
What would the procedure be to try to get a resolution passed at the GA that the COG (Cleveland) obey I Corinthians 6 when it comes to suing brethren? |
Link,
As to local church property, I don't see most denominations letting go easily of the local church buildings they control (or office buildings, campgrounds, campuses, etc), as most financial systems are based on the local church support of the leadership levels. Also, there is a view that if property is sold, such as a local church which no longer operates, the proceeds can be used for some other aspect of the leadership levels operation.
Considering how most ecclesiastical courts are constituted, a departing congregation or minister who faces disciplined, generally doubts there is a unbias nature to the court's ruling. So they do not accept the ruling, which in turn frees the denomination to say, "well, they did not submit to the church court (according to the minutes) so we had no choice but to take them to civil court." |
A push for co-equal plural eldership before transitioning church properties back to churches might help. Other denominations do not have ownership off all the properties without falling apart due to church splits.
I think the COG denomination could be in danger of losing a lot of congregations, in its current form. There are congregations that do not have a strong sense of COG identity, don't promote the COG brand name, that get little help or attention from the denomination, but just have to pay a 10% tax on the tithe to headquarters where a small portion of that goes to missions, some goes to other projects, and denominational officials at least are perceived to receive good salaries. Some of those congregations may go independent.
I don't know all the details, but I think the A/G manages to stay together without going independent. Maybe because it is more grass roots and churches feel like they benefit from being a part of he association, having good missions outlets to give to, a Bible college/seminary system to recruit from, state, regional and national programs for youth, resources that go along with that. I don't know if there is a perception of A/G officials getting paid a lot and being out of touch, ideas I might read on a forum like this about the COG.
I haven't heard of a big problem with A/Gs going independent. If the church paid for it, why should the denomination really care that much? My perception is that they have a board, like Baptists, that can hire the pastor. I suppose it could fire the pastor if there is a scandal or weird doctrine. The one I was in called their board members 'deacons' like a Baptist church.
| Quote: | Then those being taken to civil court reply, "they (the denomination) took us to civil court and we had no choice but to defend ourselves and counter sue."
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Paul asked brethren who were suing one another why wouldn't they rather suffer loss than to go to law before unbelievers.
| Quote: |
Does the COG, or any denomination, really need an assembly ruling to not take a brother to civil court since it is in the Bible? |
If the Bible isn't working, removing their power to do so by passing a resolution and making it a policy would remove the temptation. Do they at least first go to Christian arbitrators?
| Quote: |
Let's see how the Travis Johnson matter is handled - charges could be ruled unfounded, or there could be a reprimand which he accepts, or they could go as far as ruling he be removed from ministry. Removal would most likely result in there being a large independent church called "Pathway." After which both sides will feel they were in the right.
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Unless there is more to it than we have read and heard, I don't think he'll get in any big trouble, and it may just lead to Lee being more strict on the issue. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/19/24 1:09 pm
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