Actscelerate.com Forum Index Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
@actscelerate Twitter  @actscelerate Facebook 

John MacArthur on churches reopening despite government suggestions and policy.

 
   Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Acts-Celerate Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Message Author
Post John MacArthur on churches reopening despite government suggestions and policy. shaunbwilson
Question: Do you believe it's Biblical when some pastors in America are continuing to hold services even though the government instructs them not to?

John MacArthur wrote:
Yeah, let me make very clear this question because it keeps coming up. If the government told us not to meet because Christianity was against the law, if the government told us not to meet because we would be punished, fined for our religion and our religious convictions, we would have no option but to meet anyway. And that takes you to the fifth chapter of Acts where the leaders of Israel said to the apostles, “Stop preaching.” And Peter’s response was very simple. He said, “You judge whether we obey God or men,” then he went right out and preached.

If the government tells us to stop worshiping, stop preaching, stop communicating the gospel, we don’t stop. We obey God rather than men. We don’t start a revolution about that; the apostles didn’t do that. If they put us in jail, we go to jail and we have a jail ministry. Like the apostle Paul said, “My being in jail has fallen out to the furtherance of the gospel.” So we don’t rebel, we don’t protest. You don’t ever see Christians doing that in the book of Acts. If they were persecuted, they were faithful to proclaim the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ even if it took them to jail; and that’s been the pattern of true Christianity through all the centuries.

But this is not that. Might become that in the future. Might be overtones of that with some politicians. But this is the government saying, “Please do this for the protection of this society.” This is for greater societal good, that’s their objective. This is not the persecution of Christianity. This is saying, “Behave this way so that people don’t become ill and die.”

Now you may not think that you’re going to have that impact on somebody, you’re not going to be the one that becomes a carrier and causes something to be passed on to somebody else down the road and somebody dies. You may think that’s going to be you. But you cannot defy the government. And I don’t think pastors should do this. You cannot defy the government and say, “We’re going to meet anyway because God has commanded us to meet, no matter what damage we do to people’s lives.”

I mean, what should mark Christians is mercy, compassion, love, kindness, sacrifice. How are you doing that if you flaunt the fact that you’re going to meet; and essentially you’re saying, “We disregard the public safety issue.” You don’t really want to say that. That does not help the gospel cause.

What helps the gospel cause is to say, “Of course, we don’t want to be the cause of anyone’s sadness, anyone’s sorrow, anyone’s sickness, and certainly anyone’s death. So we will gladly comply. This is consistent with what Scripture says, that we are to live quiet and peaceable lives in the society in which we live. We don’t rebel, we don’t do protests, we don’t fight the government, we don’t harass and harangue, we don’t march, we don’t get in parades, we don’t stop traffic; we lead quiet and peaceable lives, and we pray for those in authority over us, and we submit ourselves to them.

In Romans chapter 13, Paul says, “You submit yourself to the government, the powers that be.” But Peter adds to that, “You submit yourself to the governor and the king,” whoever that personal authority is. I’ve heard people say, “Well, this isn’t constitutional.” That’s irrelevant. That is completely irrelevant. When you’re told by an authority to do something and it’s for the greater good of the society physically, that’s what you do because that’s what Christians would do. We are not rebels and we’re not defiant, and we don’t flaunt our freedom at the expense of someone else’s health.

How do we back out of that to communicate the love of Christ? Look, Jesus came and basically banished disease from Israel. He was a healer. The last thing the church of Jesus Christ would want to be is a group of people that lived in defiance and made somebody sick, caused somebody’s death. So you restrain yourself from that. Again, the issue is so clear that even going back to Richard Baxter back in 1600s, Richard Baxter has a great section in one of his books where he says, “If the magistrate,” as he calls it, “asks you to refrain from meeting because of a pestilence, you do not meet. On the other hand, if the magistrate tries to force you not to meet because of persecution of Christianity, you meet anyway.” I think that’s the dividing line.


(Via Twitter)
_________________
Signature Themes: Connectedness | Futuristic | Ideation | Intellection | Learner
Site Admin
Posts: 3115
5/21/20 5:45 pm


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Re: John MacArthur on churches reopening despite government suggestions and policy. Resident Skeptic
shaunbwilson wrote:
Question: Do you believe it's Biblical when some pastors in America are continuing to hold services even though the government instructs them not to?

John MacArthur wrote:
Yeah, let me make very clear this question because it keeps coming up. If the government told us not to meet because Christianity was against the law, if the government told us not to meet because we would be punished, fined for our religion and our religious convictions, we would have no option but to meet anyway. And that takes you to the fifth chapter of Acts where the leaders of Israel said to the apostles, “Stop preaching.” And Peter’s response was very simple. He said, “You judge whether we obey God or men,” then he went right out and preached.

If the government tells us to stop worshiping, stop preaching, stop communicating the gospel, we don’t stop. We obey God rather than men. We don’t start a revolution about that; the apostles didn’t do that. If they put us in jail, we go to jail and we have a jail ministry. Like the apostle Paul said, “My being in jail has fallen out to the furtherance of the gospel.” So we don’t rebel, we don’t protest. You don’t ever see Christians doing that in the book of Acts. If they were persecuted, they were faithful to proclaim the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ even if it took them to jail; and that’s been the pattern of true Christianity through all the centuries.

But this is not that. Might become that in the future. Might be overtones of that with some politicians. But this is the government saying, “Please do this for the protection of this society.” This is for greater societal good, that’s their objective. This is not the persecution of Christianity. This is saying, “Behave this way so that people don’t become ill and die.”

Now you may not think that you’re going to have that impact on somebody, you’re not going to be the one that becomes a carrier and causes something to be passed on to somebody else down the road and somebody dies. You may think that’s going to be you. But you cannot defy the government. And I don’t think pastors should do this. You cannot defy the government and say, “We’re going to meet anyway because God has commanded us to meet, no matter what damage we do to people’s lives.”

I mean, what should mark Christians is mercy, compassion, love, kindness, sacrifice. How are you doing that if you flaunt the fact that you’re going to meet; and essentially you’re saying, “We disregard the public safety issue.” You don’t really want to say that. That does not help the gospel cause.

What helps the gospel cause is to say, “Of course, we don’t want to be the cause of anyone’s sadness, anyone’s sorrow, anyone’s sickness, and certainly anyone’s death. So we will gladly comply. This is consistent with what Scripture says, that we are to live quiet and peaceable lives in the society in which we live. We don’t rebel, we don’t do protests, we don’t fight the government, we don’t harass and harangue, we don’t march, we don’t get in parades, we don’t stop traffic; we lead quiet and peaceable lives, and we pray for those in authority over us, and we submit ourselves to them.

In Romans chapter 13, Paul says, “You submit yourself to the government, the powers that be.” But Peter adds to that, “You submit yourself to the governor and the king,” whoever that personal authority is. I’ve heard people say, “Well, this isn’t constitutional.” That’s irrelevant. That is completely irrelevant. When you’re told by an authority to do something and it’s for the greater good of the society physically, that’s what you do because that’s what Christians would do. We are not rebels and we’re not defiant, and we don’t flaunt our freedom at the expense of someone else’s health.

How do we back out of that to communicate the love of Christ? Look, Jesus came and basically banished disease from Israel. He was a healer. The last thing the church of Jesus Christ would want to be is a group of people that lived in defiance and made somebody sick, caused somebody’s death. So you restrain yourself from that. Again, the issue is so clear that even going back to Richard Baxter back in 1600s, Richard Baxter has a great section in one of his books where he says, “If the magistrate,” as he calls it, “asks you to refrain from meeting because of a pestilence, you do not meet. On the other hand, if the magistrate tries to force you not to meet because of persecution of Christianity, you meet anyway.” I think that’s the dividing line.


(Via Twitter)


I believe it was McArthur who said the founding fathers were traitorous rebels as well or something like that. I have defended JM over the attacks regarding his stance on the blood of Christ, but I am not sure about this quote. It is obvious these blue state governors are acting politically. Who can blame the people of those states for resisting?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/21/20 8:20 pm


View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Reply with quote
Post Eduardo Nieves
I rarely agree with JM but he is correct on this. The last thing we should want is to contribute to the spread of the virus. Liberal media already looks to embarrass us, so why would we provide more fuel. There are some states that are way too restrictive. Why would you allow groups to assemble in a casino and not allow a provision for a church? I see many churches acting responsibly and abiding by the same rules that place on commercial businesses.
_________________
Romanos 8:37
37 Sin embargo, en todo esto somos ms que vencedores por medio de aquel que nos am.

"A Church Without Walls, A Place for All People"
El Nuevo Mana
Eduardo Nieves
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3170
5/21/20 8:49 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post UncleJD
Quote:
Yeah, let me make very clear this question because it keeps coming up. If the government told us not to meet because Christianity was against the law, if the government told us not to meet because we would be punished, fined for our religion and our religious convictions, we would have no option but to meet anyway. And that takes you to the fifth chapter of Acts where the leaders of Israel said to the apostles, “Stop preaching.” And Peter’s response was very simple. He said, “You judge whether we obey God or men,” then he went right out and preached.


What if you believe that is exactly what the government is doing under a false pretense? I'm not asking whether that is true or not, I'm asking what if you sincerely believe that? Should you then not act on those beliefs? This isn't as black and white as JM presents it.
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2868
5/22/20 7:48 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Brandon Bohannon
John MacArthur is wrong on his soteriology and hyper-calvinistic views.
John MacArthur is wrong on his cessationistic views.
John MacArthur is wrong on his womenistic views.

He did at least finally admit that he was wrong about his Christology views.

I pretty much disagree with MacArthur on most everything with the few exceptions possibly being his thoughts on the Roman Catholic system and WOFer/Charismatic practices.

All that being true, I actually think that I mostly agree with him on this.

I do support our pastors and Christian brothers in exercising their U.S. Constitutional Right to gather BUT recognize that our brothers and sisters in other parts of the world have every right to laugh at us and shake their collective heads at any American Christian calling this persecution. I doubt we make the Book of Martyrs for this one.
_________________
Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8
Acts-celerater
Posts: 566
5/22/20 10:26 am


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Resident Skeptic
Brandon Bohannon wrote:
John MacArthur is wrong on his soteriology and hyper-calvinistic views.
John MacArthur is wrong on his cessationistic views.
John MacArthur is wrong on his womenistic views.

He did at least finally admit that he was wrong about his Christology views.

I pretty much disagree with MacArthur on most everything with the few exceptions possibly being his thoughts on the Roman Catholic system and WOFer/Charismatic practices.

All that being true, I actually think that I mostly agree with him on this.

I do support our pastors and Christian brothers in exercising their U.S. Constitutional Right to gather BUT recognize that our brothers and sisters in other parts of the world have every right to laugh at us and shake their collective heads at any American Christian calling this persecution. I doubt we make the Book of Martyrs for this one.


I actually think he had the Christology view correct and then conformed to peer pressure.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/22/20 11:32 am


View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Reply with quote
Post Uncle JD.... caseyleejones
UncleJD wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, let me make very clear this question because it keeps coming up. If the government told us not to meet because Christianity was against the law, if the government told us not to meet because we would be punished, fined for our religion and our religious convictions, we would have no option but to meet anyway. And that takes you to the fifth chapter of Acts where the leaders of Israel said to the apostles, “Stop preaching.” And Peter’s response was very simple. He said, “You judge whether we obey God or men,” then he went right out and preached.


What if you believe that is exactly what the government is doing under a false pretense? I'm not asking whether that is true or not, I'm asking what if you sincerely believe that? Should you then not act on those beliefs? This isn't as black and white as JM presents it.


This....what you said
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11631
5/22/20 5:46 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post I don't understand this... caseyleejones
Eduardo Nieves wrote:
I rarely agree with JM but he is correct on this. The last thing we should want is to contribute to the spread of the virus. Liberal media already looks to embarrass us, so why would we provide more fuel. There are some states that are way too restrictive. Why would you allow groups to assemble in a casino and not allow a provision for a church? I see many churches acting responsibly and abiding by the same rules that place on commercial businesses.


If you were born and raised pentecost and know the history, it won't matter. Ask those raised in pentecost back in the 30's 40's 50's. Even Baptists made fun of pentecostals...I always remember my mom telling me about that. Why are we suddenly worried about he media?

This is not the first time people have written about the fear of the media and what they will think. They are going to think and twist regardless.
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11631
5/22/20 5:58 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post UncleJD
Brandon Bohannon wrote:

... our brothers and sisters in other parts of the world have every right to laugh at us and shake their collective heads at any American Christian calling this persecution. I doubt we make the Book of Martyrs for this one.


Do we then have the same right to laugh at them when they wonder why their governments don't fear their opinion on anything at all? I'd rather err on the side of pushing back too much on the very possibility of repression than let the government take smaller steps toward a larger goal. Again, this might not be that, but some feel that it is and they have every right to push back, thank God for that right.
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2868
5/23/20 11:48 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: I don't understand this... Eduardo Nieves
It matters!

Quote from JM:
"I mean, what should mark Christians is mercy, compassion, love, kindness, sacrifice. How are you doing that if you flaunt the fact that you’re going to meet; and essentially you’re saying, “We disregard the public safety issue.” You don’t really want to say that. That does not help the gospel cause."

caseyleejones wrote:
Eduardo Nieves wrote:
I rarely agree with JM but he is correct on this. The last thing we should want is to contribute to the spread of the virus. Liberal media already looks to embarrass us, so why would we provide more fuel. There are some states that are way too restrictive. Why would you allow groups to assemble in a casino and not allow a provision for a church? I see many churches acting responsibly and abiding by the same rules that place on commercial businesses.


If you were born and raised pentecost and know the history, it won't matter. Ask those raised in pentecost back in the 30's 40's 50's. Even Baptists made fun of pentecostals...I always remember my mom telling me about that. Why are we suddenly worried about he media?

This is not the first time people have written about the fear of the media and what they will think. They are going to think and twist regardless.

_________________
Romanos 8:37
37 Sin embargo, en todo esto somos ms que vencedores por medio de aquel que nos am.

"A Church Without Walls, A Place for All People"
El Nuevo Mana
Eduardo Nieves
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3170
5/23/20 12:33 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Cojak
I wish there could be a common sense approach to this, but it seems that doesn't exist in the world of pandemic, when you throw in government and the politics.

It doesn't seem logical to allow the grocery and big box stores to open and not well folk assembling to worship, especially if some distance is observed.

I do agree with the OP here (to me) this is not a suppression of Christianity (at present), some is common sense. No pastor wants folks with colds, flu or measles in the midst of his congregation, and NORMALLY neither does the exposed.

I just pray that as someone has mentioned it doesn't give fodder for the fire of the opposition to assemble. I do hope this mass opening by the president doesn't turn out to be a 'RESTART' of the pandemic. due to New deaths and cases spawned. I do not see it happening, but there are warnings that it will, I hope and PRAY that it actually helps to end this era of Pandemic. Cool
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 23415
5/23/20 12:48 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Brandon Bohannon
UncleJD wrote:
Brandon Bohannon wrote:

... our brothers and sisters in other parts of the world have every right to laugh at us and shake their collective heads at any American Christian calling this persecution. I doubt we make the Book of Martyrs for this one.


Do we then have the same right to laugh at them when they wonder why their governments don't fear their opinion on anything at all? I'd rather err on the side of pushing back too much on the very possibility of repression than let the government take smaller steps toward a larger goal. Again, this might not be that, but some feel that it is and they have every right to push back, thank God for that right.
The first question seems very apples to spinach quiche. As to your broader point, I support your right to push back as much as you like. It doesn't make either one of us superior to the other and we are so much more alike and have so much more in common than this one topic and current event. I have the added benefit of knowing who you are and respecting you and your family. Full disclosure, I believe that we have entered into the "End Times". I believe that the real persecution, trouble, and tribulation is coming. I believe that the generation is now alive that will see The Return of the Lord. I believe that I will be arrested in my lifetime and possibly even killed. I am not one to boast or talk tough. I was raised to speak and walk humbly. I was also raised to tell the truth. I don't believe that our resistance will stop God's redemptive plan or hinder the anti-christ(s) from building a one-world government, a one-world economy, and a one-world religion. It is coming. It must come. God is not a liar and His Word is the Truth. I know that on most levels you agree with all of that because you also believe God's Word. He tells us to be wise as serpents (our adversary) and harmless as doves (our Comforter). He says, Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the sons of God. He tells us to love and pray for our enemies, to turn the other cheek, to go the 2nd mile, and to give up our cloak also when we are asked for our coat. We don't wrestle with flesh and blood. Our kingdom is not of this world: if His kingdom was of this world, His servants would fight. He could call down more than twelve legions of angels now. It wouldn't take that many. One angel alone wiped out the first born male in every home in Egypt in one night that wasn't covered by the blood of a lamb. One angel killed 185,000 Assyrians in one night. Four angels that are chained at the bottom of the Euphrates River will be released in Revelation chapter 9, take out 1/3 part of men. Those are some bad mamma-jammas! My pushback if there is any, because I really agree with you and I hope you've seen our heart and efforts, is I am irritated by the infighting among Christians and the calling of names: spineless, cowardly, no back-bone, etc. I would hope that we would pray for each other, encourage each other and help each other. Just my opinion. Love and blessings to you and to your family!
_________________
Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8
Acts-celerater
Posts: 566
5/23/20 11:14 pm


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Carolyn Smith
I really don't know anything about John MacArthur except what I've read on here (and most of that negative), but this makes a lot of sense to me, especially in light of losing a friendship of 20 years over this very issue.

I think what he's said is balanced and well said.

The day when we will be persecuted for our faith very likely lies ahead and perhaps is closer than we think. But the Word tells us to obey authority over us (even ungodly authority), and until the time comes that they tell us to disobey God and His Word, I think we should honor authority, from our ABs all the way to the President.
_________________
"More of Him...less of me."
http://twitter.com/camiracle77
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5617
5/24/20 7:00 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Cojak
Carolyn Smith wrote:
I really don't know anything about John MacArthur except what I've read on here (and most of that negative), but this makes a lot of sense to me, ....
The day when we will be persecuted for our faith very likely lies ahead and perhaps is closer than we think. ...


I agree Carolyn. I also don't want to try to find fault with those of different opinions, because there is too much grey area at present.

What confuses most is the 'solid' points brought out concerning our present situation on both extremes and middle of the road parties. It is confusing to us old folk. Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 23415
5/24/20 11:32 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Cojak
Sorry for the duplicate entry. Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed We are in the mountains near Lenoir, NC and have a very slow cell signal....
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 23415
5/24/20 11:33 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Resident Skeptic
Carolyn Smith wrote:
I really don't know anything about John MacArthur except what I've read on here (and most of that negative), but this makes a lot of sense to me, especially in light of losing a friendship of 20 years over this very issue.

I think what he's said is balanced and well said.

The day when we will be persecuted for our faith very likely lies ahead and perhaps is closer than we think. But the Word tells us to obey authority over us (even ungodly authority), and until the time comes that they tell us to disobey God and His Word, I think we should honor authority, from our ABs all the way to the President.


And if we understand from the history of the tactics of Communists, persecution for faith and ethnicity go hand in hand. Alexander Solzhenitsyn points out the Bolshevik Revolution was a war against Russian ethnicity and identity. Sadly, many Russians were duped into waging war against their own culture.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/24/20 12:43 pm


View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Acts-Celerate Post new topic   Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Acts-celerate Terms of Use | Acts-celerate Policy
World News Network | Acts-celerate Chat
Contact the Administrator.


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Spelling by SpellingCow.