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'Gay married' man leading in polls? (L)
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Post Quiet Wyatt
I still pray that Trump is brought to repentance and is soundly converted to Christ. I am thankful for the good he has done, while remaining critical where necessary. I have held out as a NeverTrumper until only recently, with the impeachment debacle. Acts-perienced Poster
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2/14/20 11:28 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
I appreciate your perspective, QW. And for sure I am in total agreement concerning your prayer, and your gratefulness for what good has been done. Now 67% friendlier!
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2/14/20 11:30 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
(And doggone it UncleJD, I appreciate you too.) Now 67% friendlier!
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2/14/20 11:31 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
The simple fact is that we are naturally disgusted with the idea of two men having sex, while heterosexual conduct, is even adultery, while it disappoints us, does not make us sick to our stomach.

If we are not equally as disgusted with the emotional and spiritual betrayal of adultery, especially against a pregnant spouse, I would contend that our sexual ethics are cultural and not Scriptural.

I appreciate your honesty here, and I think you're exactly right that this is the root of the issue. But "two penises is grosser than betraying a pregnant spouse" is quite a take.


I believe that natural disgust for that which is unnatural is God-given and reflects the image of God in which we were created. All rational persons revolt at the idea of a man sticking his penis up a man’s anus, similar to his a man sticking his penis in a goat or a dog naturally disgusts us. As it should, for what God is disgusted with (abominations of worthy of death), should also rightly disgust all who bear His image. Only the reprobate mind (see Romans 1) approves of that the which God abominates.
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2/14/20 11:34 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
What I'm disputing is the suggestion (intentional or unintentional) that the emotional, physically, and spiritual betrayal of adultery is something God either doesn't abominate or abominates less so.

I truly do not understand placing that in a less severe category of sexual sin.
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2/14/20 11:38 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Though we know God hates ALL sin, we also know He differentiates between kinds of sin and the severity of judgement they bring. I’m not saying his adultery wasn’t egregious and worthy of death and damnation—it certainly was and is—I’m saying it wasn’t an abomination, that which utterly DISGUSTS God almighty.

I do of course agree that all sexual immorality is sin, and that those who overlook Trump’s sin while condemning Buttigieg are inconsistent. Trump is a total reprobate, to be sure, and will surely burn in the same Hell that Buttigieg will burn in if he does not repent soon!
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2/14/20 11:44 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Where in the Bible does it say adultery is an abomination? Acts-perienced Poster
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2/14/20 11:56 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Where in the Bible does it say adultery is an abomination?

Ezekiel 16:22, Ezekiel 16:58, Ezekiel 22:11, Ezekiel 33:26

Acts auto-links to the NIV which uses variations of "detestable". Compare other translations or look elsewhere in the NIV such as Lev 18:22 to see it is the same word.
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2/14/20 12:01 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Where in the Bible does it say adultery is an abomination?

Ezekiel 16:22, Ezekiel 16:58, Ezekiel 22:11, Ezekiel 33:26

Acts auto-links to the NIV which uses variations of "detestable". Compare other translations or look elsewhere in the NIV such as Lev 18:22 to see it is the same word.


That is interesting, as you know, from the context, the prophet is primarily condemning spiritual adultery (idolatry and its associated sexual immoralities). But I conceed you make a good point. Ironic, as our congregation has been reading through Ezekiel in our services lately, and have in fact read through some of these very chapters. I suppose I will have to start paying better attention during the public reading of Scripture!

Thank you for enlightening me. I sincerely appreciate it. I now need to re-search the Law of Moses to see the whether it abominates adultery as Ezekiel does.
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2/14/20 12:18 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Smile

I appreciate the interaction. Your posts have made me think as well.
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2/14/20 12:23 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
I am unable to find adultery as an abomination in the Law of Moses. However, it is a death-penalty sin, and of course is one of the “Big Ten” in the Law, so one could say it seems every bit as serious a sin as abomination. It is curious why Moses would not use the specific term for abomination for this particular sin. Perhaps we can conclude that breaking any of the Ten was an abomination, as God values them each so highly, and attaches the death penalty upon several of them, including adultery.

I will concede the point that at least in Ezekiel, adultery is pronounced to be an abomination.

It is good for me to restudy God’s holy law. May it be that which I delight in, and what I meditate in day and night.
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2/14/20 1:00 pm


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Post Link
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Last edited by Link on 2/15/20 9:43 am; edited 3 times in total
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2/14/20 10:21 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Link wrote:
I can think of another difference between adultery and so-called 'gay' so-called 'married.' After Uriah died, David was apparently allowed to be married to Bathsheba without that being a sin...I suppose. That would not have been the case with two men.

This was permissible for David only because he had Uriah murdered. If Uriah was still alive, David's marriage to Bathsheba would not have been permissible. Therefore, by your logic, adultery+murder is better than adultery because the end state of the former is permissible while the end state of the latter is not.

That doesn't seem like a sound argument.
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2/15/20 8:39 am


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Post Link
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Link wrote:
I can think of another difference between adultery and so-called 'gay' so-called 'married.' After Uriah died, David was apparently allowed to be married to Bathsheba without that being a sin...I suppose. That would not have been the case with two men.

This was permissible for David only because he had Uriah murdered. If Uriah was still alive, David's marriage to Bathsheba would not have been permissible. Therefore, by your logic, adultery+murder is better than adultery because the end state of the former is permissible while the end state of the latter is not.

That doesn't seem like a sound argument.


No, that's not my logic. I am pointing out that they could be together if her husband was dead, not that murder is okay.

No matter who dies, it is not okay for two men to be having sexual relations together. But a widow can remarry without the second marriage being adultery, since the husband is dead.
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2/15/20 9:41 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Right, but you contributed that logic to a discussion about whether homosexuality was morally worse than adultery -- not a discussion about whether they were different.

If you're not using that logic as evidence that homosexuality is morally worse, then I withdraw my objection.
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2/15/20 9:44 am


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Post Link
It is also possible that Trump has asked the Lord's forgiveness. To get right with the Lord, would He have to leave the first lady or not?

If Buttigeig wanted to live right with God, could he still live as so-called 'husband' with a dude?
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2/15/20 9:57 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Dave, would you say that bestiality was a worse sin than adultery? Acts-perienced Poster
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2/15/20 10:04 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Dave, would you say that bestiality was a worse sin than adultery?

I would, on the basis that it is non-consensual on top of being sexual sin. For the same reason, I would say that rape is a worse sin than adultery. There is more to rape than just the sexual sin.

This is one reason I really struggle to say that consensual homosexual sin is worse than adultery, or frankly, even as bad. In the case of adultery, a woman's (or man's) life and heart are being torn to pieces. The victim is being mercilessly abused by someone who is acting in a way that will devastate them spiritually, emotionally, physically, and beyond. It is a cruel act, with so much more involved than the physical sexual engagement with another person.

Perhaps you would say the same of a lifestyle of homosexuality. Perhaps you would say it is a life that defies God's revealed desire for marriage and sexuality, and thus is more involved than just the sexual interaction. That's a fair retort.

But I still really struggle to say that any kind of consensual activity is worse than activity that is viciously and non-consensually abusive of someone else.
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2/15/20 10:13 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
I would also ask you very sincerely (and please do not feel obligated to answer) if you are honestly, honestly, honestly as repulsed by the thought of two women kissing as you are by the thought of two men. If you are as repulsed by the thought of two incredibly beautiful women sexually exploring each other, as you are by the thought of two men. I am not asking if you view the sins as equally wicked; surely you do. I am asking if you are equally repulsed.

If you can honestly say that you are, then you have a consistency on this issue that most others do not share.

And if you would honestly say that you are not, then hopefully that would be an indicator that the revulsion to male homosexuality is not rooted solely in a textual treatment of the topic. Or, perhaps, an indicator that our fallen hearts are also inclined toward abominable sexual sin, and that we are just as needful of a Savior.
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2/15/20 10:25 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
I have always been aware that two men kissing disgusts me, but that two women kissing doesn’t disgust me nearly as much, especially if neither of them look butch. My carnal impulse, especially when I was younger, to two beautiful women kissing is that I would enjoy joining them in their sin. But yeah, I react just about the same to the thought of two men committing sodomy as I do to the thought of a man screwing his dog. UTTER disgust. Acts-perienced Poster
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2/15/20 10:39 am


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