Actscelerate.com

brotherjames

Well thanks for that OTCP

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/22/19 4:49 pm**

I mean Dave. And as you know by now, not a WoF but do agree with some of their teaching especially on healing.

Dave Dorsey

All in good fun!!!

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/25/19 5:28 am**

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **6/25/19 8:54 am**

Dave :

Every "'ism" has its inherent flaws. There is so much mystery concerning the sovereignty of God, even Paul was inspired to say these words:

Rom 11:33Â O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!Â

This btw comes at the end of a discourse about election.

Aaron Scott

Disproving Calvinism...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **6/25/19 9:23 am**

If God ever repented for making man, that would seem to be definitive proof that God had not DETERMINED that man fall.

Or else He does not know the future.

Dave Dorsey

Re: Disproving Calvinism...

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/25/19 9:53 am**

Dave Dorsey

Dave Dorsey · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/25/19 10:27 am**

This gets to what Da Sheik brilliantly said above.

We are discussing two "isms" that attempt to square some of the circles I just described. If we are humble, we must conclude that our "isms" for these subjects are the best guesses of finite minds.

We must hold our "isms" in humility, discuss the differences of our "isms" in charity, and stand together in unity with awe of the unsearchable infinity of the God who has saved us.

Aaron Scott

Dave...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **6/25/19 10:28 am**

Well, I am, at least partially, a proponent of open theism. So there's that.

But the issue with Calvinism is that we wind up with a God who is more cruel than ANY GOD ever known to mankind. Satanists. Aztecs. Olmecs. You name it.

Consider that Calvinism holds that God has PREDETERMINED that certain people will go to hell and burn and be in torment forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever....

There is NOTHING they can do. They either will be predetermined to not even WANT to be saved...or, if not, then even if they want to be saved, and even if they think they are saved, they are not saved.

Even Satan isn't that evil. He TRIES to get people to go to hell. But God, according to Calvinism, DETERMINES they perhaps THOUSANDS of years before they were even born.

Then, we also wind up with a God who will predetermine a good man to go to hell...while He may decide that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Attila go to heaven.

We think God is good NOT only as an article of faith, but because we UNDERSTAND Him to be good. That is, we see and read and believe Him to be good because we perceive Him as doing good things and being good. That is, we do not define Him as good just because He is God, but because we believe He "acts" good.

If we claim that God is good, even if He does what is, according to our own moral understandings, utterly evil, then good and evil no longer have meaning. That is, we shouldn't say ANYTHING is good or ANYTHING is evil, since we clearly don't know good or evil when we see it.

We claim that human sacrifice is evil. Why? God's determination that many will go to hell is clearly FAR MORE EVIL and ETERNAL than human sacrifice. Five minutes of suffering vs. five trillion years of torment is an easy calculation.

Further, we can't claim human sacrifice is evil since, apparently, that is what God WILLED that they do. So we wind up with a contradiction of sorts: It's evil because, well, it's human sacrifice, but it's good because God WANTED it done.

And the whole "God is not willing that any should perish" will NOT work for the claim that it was written to Christians. First, it's pretty much (as I indicated before) a tautology along the lines of "God is not willing that you should perish...because He's not willing that you should perish."

Further, NO ONE KNOWS who He's speaking to, since even if they think they are saved, they may not actually be saved. On Judgment Day, the get the most evil surprise in human conception: I'm going to hell to burn forever.

Calvinism has it's points and its scriptures, but it begins to falter as we examine it more closely. We are asked to explain why Allah is evil since terrorists blow up innocent people, but Jehovah is good when He PREDETERMINES people go to hell FOREVER!

Further, if God is predetermining people to heaven or hell, with there being nothing they can do to exert influence on the outcome, the God COULD predetermine EVERYONE to be saved. Yet this wonderful, loving, kind, generous God instead WANTS to burn millions in hell forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever....

If people were drowning and you COULD save all of them, but don't, how is that good for the ones who drowned and their families? "You mean that you COULD have saved them all, but you simply chose not to?"

A Calvinist might reply, "Yes, but God knew how those people would turn out before they were even born, and so rightly determined them to hell." Well, God is the one who PREDETERMINED how they would be.

You would think at the end of everything, since everyone did what God wanted, it would be like a cast party where the people who played the good guys and the people who played the bad guys would celebrate together, since it was only a role they were playing (and could not HELP playing).

But no. Calvinism's God apparently NEEDS to send people to hell for...what?

If I thought that Calvinism were true, I would not serve that God. I'd just worship the sun or rivers or something. Why? Because that God, according to all I know about evil, is evil. Further, I could never fully trust that God. After all, I might think I'm saved. I might make great sacrifices to live in a way that I understand to be in accord with God's will. But then I might find out that, oops, sorry, you should have had all the fun you wanted before now, since it's just hell from here on out.

No way to trust a God like that. After all, He has already deceived us by making us think we have some degree of free will...or that we are saved, etc.

And thank God we don't serve one like that!

(Of course, the pure determinist would argue that I am making this argument because it was determined that I do so.)

For the same reasons I wouldn't serve the Aztec gods, Satan, or Allah--because they are cruel and evil--I wouldn't serve Calvin's God. They good news is that I should live EXACTLY LIKE I WANT TO! Why? Because I can't do anything that would save me...or anything that would cause me to be lost. So eat, drink, be merry, for tomorrow we burn in hell forever. Or maybe go to heaven. Who knows?

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/25/19 10:31 am**

All of these objections apply equally to a God who permits people to freely choose Hell. He absolutely has the ability to make Himself known to each and every person who has ever lived and to reveal His glory and goodness in a way that would preclude any rational person from choosing to oppose Him.

He doesn't. He chooses not to. He lets people go to Hell. And you can say all of the exact same things about Him for making that decision that you say above.

Sorry Aaron. It's not that simple.

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/25/19 10:37 am**

Also, Aaron, it seems obvious that you don't really understand reformed theology. I say that with all due respect. RC Sproul's "What Is Reformed Theology?" would be a good read, even if you emerge from it even stronger in your disagreements.

"Then, we also wind up with a God who will predetermine a good man to go to hell...while He may decide that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Attila go to heaven."

That's not how any of this works, lol. I would hope all of us would agree that if Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Atilla had come to Christ in an expression of genuine faith and repentance that we would be glad to see them in Heaven.

You seems to think that Calvinism means you find out if you're saved or not when you die. And, I appreciate that assurance is a complicated topic regardless of your "ism". But you seem to think one's life on earth is completely detached from God's "choice" for them. They could live a life of total wickedess and die and find out, hey, lucky day, you're elect! Or live a life of faith and hope in Christ and then die to find out, nope, sorry, not elect.

That's not what any Calvinist believes. Respectfully, I think you owe your brothers the respect of having a basic understanding of the topic before you rail so strongly against it.

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/25/19 11:00 am**

BTW, I'm not saying "hurrr if you would just learn about calvinism you would be a calvinist", so please don't hear me saying that.

I just think we should all make an effort to understand what people believe, and to fairly characterize those beliefs.

Peace to you!

Aaron Scott

Dave....

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **6/25/19 11:02 am**

Dave Dorsey

Re: Dave....

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/25/19 11:10 am**

Aaron Scott

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **6/25/19 11:54 am**

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/25/19 12:06 pm**

Aaron, I respectfully disagree that you are correctly characterizing reformed theology.

Perhaps you are, and I am the one who is mistaken. Either way, if we cannot agree that A = A, there is little point in continuing.

Blessings to you!

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **6/25/19 12:08 pm**

Aaron,
Paul anticipated all of your objections to unconditional election. He answers them succinctly in Romans chapter 9. I would encourage you to sit down with an open heart, an open mind, and prayerfully read Romans 9-11 again.

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/25/19 12:09 pm**

I will say this:

Aaron Scott

Dave...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **6/25/19 12:46 pm**

I, too, note that OSAS and Arminianism are often semantic difference, rather than actual ones. For instance, the Arminian says "You are not saved because you live in adultery," while the Calvinist would say "You were never saved, because if you had been, you would not be living in adultery."

At the end of the day, BOTH agree that a person is unsaved. As far as the rest, we have no way of actually knowing the correct theology, just that both accept the person as being unsaved.

Of course, we aren't going to solve it. I have come to think that some people can accept Calvinism and others simply cannot (me, for instance). I don't know if this is where it starts, but I think that some "need" to hold that God is fully in charge of everything that happens, nothing happens by accident, etc. While others (like me) are good with there being a greater degree of freedom.

For instance, some have to hold that there is some purpose God is working out when a child is murdered. I appreciate that, since it is virtually impossible to handle otherwise, I imagine. Others are good with believing that God allows it to happen because it is a fallen world...but will still work it to our good.

It's a mess at trying to determine motivating forces in theology, but each of us accepts what best sits with our a prior understanding of the universe, I suppose. And if, in truth, we are all saying pretty much the same thing--that saved people act saved, and if they don't, they aren't saved--we likely make far too much of it.

God bless you.

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/25/19 12:50 pm**

That's good stuff, Aaron. I largely agree.

In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.

Blessings to you also.

Ventureforth

Acts-celerater Posts: 651 **7/9/19 7:11 pm**

Ventureforth

Acts-celerater Posts: 651 **7/18/19 8:27 am**

18 â€œCome now, and let us reason together,â€
Says the Lord,

â€œThough your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.
19 â€œIf you consent and obey,
You will eat the best of the land;
20 â€œBut if you refuse and rebel,
You will be devoured by the sword.â€
Truly, the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

It appears to me God is giving them a choice not effectively predetermining their outcome. I keep this in mind when reading Isaiah 6:9-10.