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Resident Skeptic |
Dave Dorsey wrote: | Resident Skeptic wrote: | Are Gentiles commanded not to wear linen and wool together? And again, 90% of American slaves were born into slavery. But the point is, we are going a dangerous route when we begin to denounce people like Whitfield. |
No, but they are commanded in 1 Timothy 1:10 not to participate in slave trading.
Slave trading, not slave owning.
And it's important to point out that the article isn't denouncing Whitefield. To do so, and to throw away his tremendous contributions to the faith, would be a mistake. At the same time, we do have to wrestle with the fact that he (like Barth and others) engaged in unrepentant sin. We have to wrestle with what that means for them, for us, and for our faith. The conclusion of the writer to the subject question was one of hopeful trust in Christ for Whitefield's salvation. I think the article does a great job threading that needle which is why I wanted to share it. |
Actually, my concerns were aimed more at Change Agent. You have been very fair, in my opinion, as was the article. _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 5/27/19 7:18 pm
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Cojak |
I am a man of logic. I have visited Wlliamsburg a couple times. Each time on a tour I listened to Historians (archeologists) say: WE can find more truth in artifacts than the written history of the people who lived here because humans tend to 'embellish' in their letters and journals. To me that is baloney. One may learn more of the Aztecs, but not from people who spoke the same language and not just 'hyrogliphisc' leavings.
To ask, 'Was a Jose a Christian in 1533' when he lived according to life as he knew it then?'
Can a man be a Christian and be a heavy handed Boss?
Can an overseer be a Christian when he moves a minister from a place the man felt called to pastor?
The author is asking a question that cannot be answered in finality from generations later.
For some reason we humans feel compelled to exonerate or send someone to hell, when all the time that decision belongs ONLY to God.
Was even any early minister from the 1700 thru 1800s Christians?
When you start judging men from 200 years past when you have no inkling of what life was actually like day to day, you are treading on thin ice, IMO.
I was raised in the segregated South. My dad was a COG preacher that did not believe segregation was right. His personal life showed it. He stopped doing business with a service station once because the owner, a friend. would not let a little black boy pee in the white restroom. But daddy did not preach against segregation. Basically Segregation is a sin, was my daddy a sinner because he did not preach against it. WE actually live in a town where a black person could live within the city limits. They could not be in town on foot after dark. Daddy never preached against that. To everyone here, you had to be there. I feel the same about slavery. NONE of my family ever owned a slave. Thery were share croppers. BUT they did not revolt against the 'laws, standards or rules' of the day.
Were the ministers even Christian that went along with segregation and even believed it was right?
I realize it is for discussion, but it is just about like apples and oranges, TIME CHANGES, ATTITUDES, MORALITIES, LAWS AND RULES.
i AGREE TO A POINT that the article brings up some good points, and is NOT thrown at the subject, but I still think we seem to speculate using 'time travel', returning to a PAST time and taking OUR present knowledge and prejudices.
Our sons cannot believe we never attended school with Black students. They say 'That was so stupid!' Yep, but you had to be there! _________________ Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24269 5/28/19 12:21 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Resident Skeptic wrote: | Dave Dorsey wrote: | No, but they are commanded in 1 Timothy 1:10 not to participate in slave trading. |
Slave trading, not slave owning. |
Buying slaves from slave traders is participation in slave trading. Again, the Scripture in Exodus 21 condemns to death those who possess traded slaves right alongside those who kidnap and sell them. The Bible is clear, in both testaments, how God views slave traders and their customers.
Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 5/28/19 3:04 am; edited 2 times in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 5/28/19 2:57 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Cojak wrote: | When you start judging men from 200 years past when you have no inkling of what life was actually like day to day, you are treading on thin ice, IMO. |
The article addresses this, though. In his early life Whitefield condemned racial chattel slavery in a way that would have met the approval of any abolitionist or modern mind. So while this argument generally holds water IMO, it's not one that can be applied to Whitefield. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 5/28/19 2:59 am
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I agree with Cojak |
brotherjames |
The author of this article has a lot of Chutzpah!
[/img]
https://www.jewishpress.com/cartoons/the-definition-of-chutzpah
[img]
CHUTZPAH
Noun
(uncountable)
(slang) Nearly arrogant courage; utter audacity, effrontery or impudence; supreme self-confidence; exaggerated self-opinion |
Acts-celerater Posts: 935 5/28/19 6:05 am
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Re: I agree with Cojak |
Dave Dorsey |
You didn't read the article, did you? I think if you did, you wouldn't have this opinion. And your opinion would certainly be a lot more interesting if you offered any kind of analysis or reasoning to back it up. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 5/28/19 6:30 am
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Resident Skeptic |
Dave Dorsey wrote: | Resident Skeptic wrote: | Dave Dorsey wrote: | No, but they are commanded in 1 Timothy 1:10 not to participate in slave trading. |
Slave trading, not slave owning. |
Buying slaves from slave traders is participation in slave trading. Again, the Scripture in Exodus 21 condemns to death those who possess traded slaves right alongside those who kidnap and sell them. The Bible is clear, in both testaments, how God views slave traders and their customers. |
But again, most American saves were born into slavery. _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 5/28/19 6:35 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Resident Skeptic wrote: | But again, most American saves were born into slavery. |
They wouldn't have been had their ancestors not been purchased by Americans participating in a chattel slave trade.
Asked with respect and no presumption: Are you able to simply and straightforwardly state that American racial chattel slavery was wicked? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 5/28/19 6:37 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Here's what I worry about...
What are we blind to today - that will be looked upon with just as much horror in 200 years as Whitefield's is today? _________________ Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16599 5/28/19 6:52 am
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Resident Skeptic |
Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Here's what I worry about...
What are we blind to today - that will be looked upon with just as much horror in 200 years as Whitefield's is today? |
Good point. _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 5/28/19 6:55 am
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Resident Skeptic |
Dave Dorsey wrote: | Resident Skeptic wrote: | But again, most American saves were born into slavery. |
They wouldn't have been had their ancestors not been purchased by Americans participating in a chattel slave trade.
Asked with respect and no presumption: Are you able to simply and straightforwardly state that American racial chattel slavery was wicked? |
If these people were genuine spoils of war and conquest, as was the case with Roman slaves, then I do not think that falls into the manstealing category.
As for American slavery, yes, even the most benevolent manifestation of slavery is, in the end, still slavery. It goes against every principle that influenced us to seek liberty. It serves to subdue within a man his God-given design to live free. How can we speak of "divine rights" as Locke did, and not allow a man to act on those rights? All that being said, I grow weary of the primary focus of the African Slave Trade being the slaves it sent to North America. For every one slave brought here, 20 went to Latin America, Brazil receiving most of those. _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 5/28/19 7:02 am
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Actually Dave I did read it all. |
brotherjames |
And my opinion is its hogwash to put 2019 "woke" standards on people from the late 1700's. I know what righteousness looks like and while I don't think that the "judge not lest ye be judged" means exactly that you're not allowed to ever judge people's actions, this case, however, might be a case where we might want to temper our judgements. I think the author and those who agree with him are unfair to Whitefield and others and i think the whole article is stupid. That's my opinion.
Audacious chutzpah in my universe. |
Acts-celerater Posts: 935 5/28/19 7:08 am
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Re: Actually Dave I did read it all. |
Resident Skeptic |
brotherjames wrote: | And my opinion is its hogwash to put 2019 "woke" standards on people from the late 1700's. I know what righteousness looks like and while I don't think that the "judge not lest ye be judged" means exactly that you're not allowed to ever judge people's actions, this case, however, might be a case where we might want to temper our judgements. I think the author and those who agree with him are unfair to Whitefield and others and i think the whole article is stupid. That's my opinion.
Audacious chutzpah in my universe. |
Notice it is always white people who feel the need to be self-loathing. _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 5/28/19 7:11 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Here's what I worry about...
What are we blind to today - that will be looked upon with just as much horror in 200 years as Whitefield's is today? |
This was one of the main points of the article. It's really easy to look back on Whitefield, but what about us today?
Hopefully -- hopefully -- abortion will be one of those things 200 years from now, should the Lord tarry His coming. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 5/28/19 7:18 am
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Re: Actually Dave I did read it all. |
Dave Dorsey |
brotherjames wrote: | And my opinion is its hogwash to put 2019 "woke" standards on people from the late 1700's. |
I guess I didn't realize that the opinion that racial chattel slavery is immoral was a woke SJW view. Learn something new every day. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 5/28/19 7:20 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Resident Skeptic wrote: | As for American slavery, yes, even the most benevolent manifestation of slavery is, in the end, still slavery. It goes against every principle that influenced us to seek liberty. |
I'm glad to hear you say this. I've enjoyed our discussion in this thread.
I would dispute that American chattel slavery was benevolent, but I'm glad we can agree that it was wicked, whatever it was. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 5/28/19 7:21 am
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Cojak |
Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Here's what I worry about...
What are we blind to today - that will be looked upon with just as much horror in 200 years as Whitefield's is today? |
I do agree here. and also agree that the article makes one think. And this is a good discussion and has some good points. Also some good points brought out in the comments.
We need more to make us think and just not ACCEPT positions. _________________ Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24269 5/28/19 9:28 am
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