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When one of our churches are sold...
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Post Its a tread we see from the trenches Mat
Darrell Garrett wrote:
Quote:
Once a man is in a position of power, has the title and the benefits, there is little inclination for personal sacrifice, but great willingness to make the subornation pay the price. If you don't like what your leaders are doing, stop sending them money, stop feeding the bear!


Sadly, this is happening again and again as people have had enough and are departing from the denomination. In the last week I have spoken with 2 people/families who attended where I used to pastor. Both have been a part of the COG for more than 40 years and both indicated the same thing; that they've had and seen enough and are leaving. One person said to me that she had seen the handwriting on the wall and knew that she was feeding system rather than a church and she and her husband have given their last dime to the COG. Unless God steps in and changes things and hearts, it will most likely lead to yet another location where we used to have a COG.


Its a trend we see from the trenches of the local church - Pentecostals leaving their heritage and denominations for independent or non-Pentecostal churches. I think in Cleveland, TN, the largest church in town is First Baptist. I am told many former COG and CGP members are now calling it home. Some one said up to 40 of the staff is former Pentecostal.

Think of it, those who left no longer believe Holy Spirit Baptism with the Evidence of Speaking in Tongues is of value. Holiness through the Blood of Jesus and living a Sanctified life, not needed. Being connected to other like-minded churches around the world - well, I'm sure they have a great missionary commitment.

We - from the pews and pulpits of the local church - see, its not what you're doing collectively or globally, its what you can do locally that matters. We left-behinders, the ones still supporting the denomination, will get some of that "First Baptist" experience, when our leaders have the pastor come and teach us about church growth. I have always wanted to raise my hand and ask what kind of structure they support?

Mat
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4/19/19 2:12 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
In 1989 my State Overseer told me and my wife, in the presence of the State Evangelism Director.

"This is my church and I will do whatever I want with it."

That is a direct quote.

Yes, we left Cleveland 30 years ago and have not looked back.

I have been asked the $69,000.00 question several times since then.

Brother, would you come back?

No, I will not return to Cleveland's oversight.

Folks, you can succeed without Cleveland.

We have. Very Happy
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4/19/19 5:09 pm


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Post FLRon
Travis Johnson wrote:
AdamJ wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
cogcia wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
The number 1 listed responsibility of the state council is oversight of this specific money.

A state overseer AND a state council are to appropriate money in the manner directed below. It’s a General assembly mandate. It simply says what it says. Both offices have a job to do...doesn’t mean it’s easy. But, it is very clear.

Quote:
II. Duties and Authorities

The State Council shall:

1. With the state overseer, have supervision of the state missions money, surplus tithes, state parsonage, campground, and all other funds received and disbursed by the state treasury.

The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).


That looks really good on paper. When you see an AB taking cereditials of anyone that opposes him you either let him have his way, hold your peace or walk away. How can a state councilmen hold an AB accountable unless he is more connected to the COG system than the AB. I’ve seen them try to absolutely no effect. I’ve also seen a couple Councilmen that carried enough influence to do it more effectively.
If an AB rules with an iron fist they are not looking for Council. Unless it helps them get their way.


I don’t think an overseer can just take someone's Credentials.


Brother I wouldn’t be posting under a pen name if that was true. He can take your credentials. He can take your church. We must be in 2 different denominations. We call it the COG graveyard in our state. We had a state leader challenge the AB about removing a pastor from his church with no notice to be told I’m the AB and can do whatever I want to do. And he did.


Without getting into the particulars of any state because I just wouldn’t know what I’m talking about, I can say that an overseer cannot take something he didn’t give.

State Trustees don’t trump the state Overseer or state council on properties. The General Assembly gave that authority to ABs and Councils. And Trustees serve at the pleasure of the overseer.

And, State Overseers don’t trump the General Overseer on credentials. In order for a minister to take your credentials, you would need to be brought up on charges and brought before a trial board. They can’t just be taken. It’s impossible.

There is process for all of this. If the state council isn’t doing its job, that’s another story. State councils in every state need to watch the property. We have indeed sold off tons of property and have nothing to show for it...which is why I wrote and submitted the 2010 motion on property. If someone has since sold that property without the ABs knowledge, he needs to find out why someone subverted his authority. If an overseer sold property and distributed money improperly, the state council needs to find out why an aB subverted their authority. That’s just the way it is.

That motion passed by a substantial margin because the ministers and members don’t want to see hard won properties be cannibalized to fund administrative overhead that is too big and needs to be artificially propped up, which is what happens when sold property is funding admin in that manner.

But, that clearly is not just an issue for state overseers. It’s also a job for the state council. Leadership is bleedership. Sometimes, you just have to have real conversations among yourselves.

Now, what a state Overseer can do is remove you from a church. He has that power. If something has been done improperly, there is a way to deal with that.

Along those lines, I long decided not to use a pen name for that reason. If I was going to get knifed, I decided it would be best done in the middle of the arena and not in a dark alley.

That’s just me having some really honest talk.


“And, State Overseers don’t trump the General Overseer on credentials. In order for a minister to take your credentials, you would need to be brought up on charges and brought before a trial board. They can’t just be taken. It’s impossible”.

Not impossible at all. My credentials were revoked and I was never brought up on any charges, and I was never brought before any trial board. I simply received a letter one day stating that my credentials had been revoked. At no time was I ever contacted by the Overseer prior to the revocation of my credentials. It does happen, and nothing is impossible within the hierarchy of the CoG, in spite of how difficult that may be to hear.
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4/19/19 5:44 pm


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Post Some things I am not sure of but this I remember... Cojak
I remember once I was in the 7th grade (1952) , hearing dad telling mom that the overseer had called to tell him to go to 'John Doe's' house and get his 'papers'. Dad took Bro T.N. Ward with him and retrieved his papers.

I had forgotten about the incident. BUT As fate would have it, when I thought I was a preacher, I was once that man's pastor. He was blind by this time, and he told me that dad had apologized but the overseer had told him to retrieve his papers. He said I didn't think I had ever done anything wrong, but I gave them up. He was a good member for the 2 years I was there.

Strange as that was, I could tell he accepted me, but felt that dad should have 'sided' with him.

One of the STRANGE things in my short 'career' as a preacher.
Embarassed Embarassed

Maybe ministers are like 'bro Doe' and just turn them in when requested without any protest. Just 'yielding to authority'. Shocked
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4/19/19 10:24 pm


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Post Darrell Garrett
When you are told to surrender them voluntarily or they will be forced to revoke them, most just do. I honestly was going to fight for mine but then thought it over and decided that with the direction I see the COG going, it was not worth the fight. Even if you fight and actually win, you are done with the COG anyway. Better to just walk away, and men are. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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4/20/19 9:29 am


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Post Darrell Garrett
S33. STATE COUNCIL II. DUTIES AND AUTHORITIES
1. Duties and Authorities
The State Council shall: With the state overseer, have supervision of the state missions money, surplus tithes, state parsonage, campground, and all other funds received and disbursed by the state treasury. The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).

Although the above was passed by the General Assembly (which is SUPPOSED to be the highest authority in the COG) they have chosen to use the following passage to "interpret" what the Body meant when they passed the above. (Which means they do whatever the heck they want to do with no regard for the will of the General Assembly)

S55. CHURCH PROPERTY V. STANDARD DEEDS Recognizing Trust Ownership
C. If the local congregation at the place above described shall at any time cease to function or exist, or shall act contrary to Church of God polity, or separate from the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee, U.S.A.), then said trustees shall hold title to said real estate, including personal property, for the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee, U.S.A.) generally in the state where said real estate is located; and said trustees shall convey the said real estate upon demand to the State Board of Trustees of the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee, U.S.A.) in said state, which said state board shall be authorized to use said real estate and personal property, or the proceeds derived from the sale of same (said state board being authorized to sell and convey the said real estate and personal property at any time after title is vested in it), FOR THE USE AND BENEFIT OF THE CHURCH OF GOD(Cleveland, Tennessee, U.S.A.) IN THAT STATE GENERALLY; OR THE FOUNDING OF ANOTHER CHURCH OF GOD (Cleveland, Tennessee, U.S.A.) in the same state, or for the promotion of one already existing [1994].

I'm no longer in the COG so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this, but I will say, this is (IMHO) definitely an unethical use of these passages, and quite possibly an illegal use. I have it on good authority that members of the State Council have asked about this loophole and even asked if it would stand up if challenged in court and the AB told them that J. David Stephens told him to continue operating this way. No reply to the legality of it, just a "this is what we are going to do."

I also think they are grossly abusing the phrase, "less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church" in a way that again is unethical, if not illegal. For example, when I was the D.O. a church was closed and sold. When asked about using the money to strengthen a church on my district, I was told we had "X" number of dollars, which was a small fraction of what we sold the property for. I challenged that AB to explain where those funds went and he began explaining how that in 1974 the State Office gave that church $5000 to assist on a roof and in 1980 the state office gave them moving assistance for a pastor and so on. I DO NOT believe that was the intent of the General Assembly when they passed the motion on that passage in the Minutes! I was told that I needed to "stop making waves or things could come back to bite me in the backside." (Actual quote from that AB)

It's not my desire to hurt the COG. As I've stated, I've lived and breathed Church of God all of my life until about a month ago. I still love this church and it pains me to see good men making their exits left and right from the COG because they've had enough. This is a problem that is going to only get worse, and it WILL be challenged in court much sooner than anyone in Cleveland cares to admit. When it does, if the congregation wins (and I believe they will) the floodgates will open.
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4/29/19 9:10 pm


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Post roughridercog
Darrell Garrett wrote:
S33. STATE COUNCIL II. DUTIES AND AUTHORITIES
1. Duties and Authorities
The State Council shall: With the state overseer, have supervision of the state missions money, surplus tithes, state parsonage, campground, and all other funds received and disbursed by the state treasury. The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).

Although the above was passed by the General Assembly (which is SUPPOSED to be the highest authority in the COG) they have chosen to use the following passage to "interpret" what the Body meant when they passed the above. (Which means they do whatever the heck they want to do with no regard for the will of the General Assembly)

S55. CHURCH PROPERTY V. STANDARD DEEDS Recognizing Trust Ownership
C. If the local congregation at the place above described shall at any time cease to function or exist, or shall act contrary to Church of God polity, or separate from the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee, U.S.A.), then said trustees shall hold title to said real estate, including personal property, for the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee, U.S.A.) generally in the state where said real estate is located; and said trustees shall convey the said real estate upon demand to the State Board of Trustees of the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee, U.S.A.) in said state, which said state board shall be authorized to use said real estate and personal property, or the proceeds derived from the sale of same (said state board being authorized to sell and convey the said real estate and personal property at any time after title is vested in it), FOR THE USE AND BENEFIT OF THE CHURCH OF GOD(Cleveland, Tennessee, U.S.A.) IN THAT STATE GENERALLY; OR THE FOUNDING OF ANOTHER CHURCH OF GOD (Cleveland, Tennessee, U.S.A.) in the same state, or for the promotion of one already existing [1994].

I'm no longer in the COG so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this, but I will say, this is (IMHO) definitely an unethical use of these passages, and quite possibly an illegal use. I have it on good authority that members of the State Council have asked about this loophole and even asked if it would stand up if challenged in court and the AB told them that J. David Stephens told him to continue operating this way. No reply to the legality of it, just a "this is what we are going to do."

I also think they are grossly abusing the phrase, "less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church" in a way that again is unethical, if not illegal. For example, when I was the D.O. a church was closed and sold. When asked about using the money to strengthen a church on my district, I was told we had "X" number of dollars, which was a small fraction of what we sold the property for. I challenged that AB to explain where those funds went and he began explaining how that in 1974 the State Office gave that church $5000 to assist on a roof and in 1980 the state office gave them moving assistance for a pastor and so on. I DO NOT believe that was the intent of the General Assembly when they passed the motion on that passage in the Minutes! I was told that I needed to "stop making waves or things could come back to bite me in the backside." (Actual quote from that AB)

It's not my desire to hurt the COG. As I've stated, I've lived and breathed Church of God all of my life until about a month ago. I still love this church and it pains me to see good men making their exits left and right from the COG because they've had enough. This is a problem that is going to only get worse, and it WILL be challenged in court much sooner than anyone in Cleveland cares to admit. When it does, if the congregation wins (and I believe they will) the floodgates will open.


Has the cut in percentages helped contribute to the wild shuffle for money to pay the expenses? One has to ask the question, have we created this situation somewhat? Granted, the decrease in tithe of tithe has caused reevaluation of many positions and programs. Has it contributed to this present problem?
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5/1/19 7:08 am


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Post Travis Johnson
roughridercog wrote:
Has the cut in percentages helped contribute to the wild shuffle for money to pay the expenses? One has to ask the question, have we created this situation somewhat? Granted, the decrease in tithe of tithe has caused reevaluation of many positions and programs. Has it contributed to this present problem?


It has not. 100% no.

The cut was because the state office received 5% Tithe of Tithe and 2.5% for Evangelism and Home Missions (church planting specifically per the GA).

The EHM fun (the 2.5%) was the ONLY CUT THE STATE RECEIVED.

The reason the state offices have had a shortfall of money is because the state offices were not spending the 2.5% on church planting. Rather, this money was being used for administration

So, when it was gone, state offices went into crisis, which was proof that state offices were mishandling that money.

I would say that properties being sold is an outflow of that mishandling. BUT, prior to the TOT cut, state offices were living off of monies from sold properties as well.

We have been in a bad situation with both of those issues.

Any state using EHM funds for admin was being insubordinate to the General Assembly. The result? 120 members of the Committee of Action deciding how the TOT cut would be enacted eliminated the EHM mandate altogether.

So, that mandate is gone...unfortunately. And, the condition of us violating that mandate is gone.

The condition of us living off of the fruit (properties) produced by previous generations is still a condition.

Any time we sell a property and consume it, we are in opposition to the GA (insubordinate).

I was recently told by a state overseer that he has less than half of the churches in his state than were there 20 years ago. That money from those sold churches did not all get spent appropriately. If that were so, there would be one of two realities:

1. A lot of new churches: a combination of successful or failed church plants.

2. A large designated fund for church planting.

Neither is the place.


Bringing integrity to these clearly designated funds and properties is absolutely critical. State Councils and overseers owe it to the COG and to the General Assembly to be faithful with this fund...especially if the State Councils and State Overseers expect local churches to be faithful in reporting TOT funds.

Covenant matters.
Our actions matter.

This is a matter of organization vision and mission.
This is a matter of personal and organizational holiness.
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5/1/19 10:21 am


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Post Darrell Garrett
Travis, you nailed it.
It is not a new problem and it's not right to point fingers at current AB's as the problem. This has gone on for decades and the current crop of AB's are simply doing what has always been done. But it's time to stop it. My state is one of those that has lost FAR more churches than we've gained and there is no money left to re-seed the landscape. They have eaten their seed and now the state is in dire straights. I predict that within the next few years, as far as the COG goes, Illinois will cease to exist. The state will be either merged with Missouri or divided up between Missouri, Indiana and Iowa. With God, yes, it can be turned around, but if the same course of action is followed, the future is clear.
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5/1/19 11:04 am


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Post Travis Johnson
Darrell Garrett wrote:
Travis, you nailed it.
It is not a new problem and it's not right to point fingers at current AB's as the problem. This has gone on for decades and the current crop of AB's are simply doing what has always been done.


I understand what you’re saying...and appreciate the deference. But, what differentiates the TOT/EHM Fund misspending from misspending on property sales is that TOT/EHM misspending was a decades old practice.

The church property sales issue is only 8.5 years old. The motion mandating this money to be designated in a particular was was mandated by the General assembly in 2010. Our current overseers, state council should be well aware. The issue spanned multiple General Assemblies. It is a known condition.

Unequivocally, it should be handled with integrity.

Where state councils and state overseers fail to abide by the mandate of the General assembly, they should fix it immediately or step aside for people who will. We are talking about a body of tens of millions of dollars annually designated for church planting.

We do not have a shortage of money. We may have a shortage of emotional fortitude to make the money do what our highest governing body has directed it to do.

That lands on all of us.
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5/1/19 1:35 pm


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Post Darrell Garrett
Oh, I agree with what you're saying completely. You're right, this has been a problem since the 2010 GA passed this and it must be dealt with. I was meaning that the practice was done before and they are simply continuing to do what has always been done. As you say, the difference is that since 2010, they are in violation of the intent and purpose of the GA's will. Some people I have spoken with almost laugh it off, but this is a serious issue AND it is a LEGAL issue. I've been saying, as have a few others (one has said it on this site a few months ago) that this could very well become an issue which is prosecuted by law. The GA Minutes are legally binding documents and cannot just be ignored. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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5/1/19 4:06 pm


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Post Darrell Garrett
I've let this sit, just to see if anyone talks about it. I figured they would not. I've spoken with several pastors and credentialed ministers in my state, as well as Missouri, Ohio, Kentucky and Florida who have said they were so glad I brought this up and agree that something has to be done because it is killing the COG. But here's the reality... none, at least few will say a word, even behind a pen name because they fear retribution. That's just sad. Men will ride the ship to the bottom of the sea rather than do something to save it. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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5/19/19 10:05 pm


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Post diakoneo
In my opinion church property should be much more difficult to sell than it currently is. When property sold all potential future income is gone. Why don't we hold on to these properties and lease them using property management companies and at least get income that could be used to fund church plants and missions etc.? It seems the future is being sold to support the present and that makes no sense to me!

We need to change the way we think about church property. It is a huge asset that is underutilized and misused from what I see.
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6/24/19 2:15 pm


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