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It's time to allow COG pastors to pastor outside the movement
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Post Cojak
Some on Acts remember what was called the 'Old Plan' and the "New Plan'. My dad retired under the Old and my BIL, cousins and uncles retired under the 'new' plan.
BIL always spoke well of the person in charge of the 'new plan' which seemed to work well for retirees. I know dad drew very little under the 'old' plan but he never complained and was happy he was able to draw something.

Retirement Housing.... see new thread.
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1/25/19 10:27 am


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Post Da Sheik
There will always be allowances made for certain ministers. I’ve seen it over the course of my ministry. Different standards for different guys. It’s not right , but it’s reality. I’ve seen guys whose credentials should have been revoked “promoted” to larger churches. And I’ve seen others do far less and receive strict discipline.

I try to be “Kingdom”- minded. So with that said, I don’t have any problem w our guys ministering outside of our camp. But in reality, they might be better served just seeking credentials and/or ordination with another denomination that offers them opportunity. Just my $0.02
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1/25/19 11:28 am


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Post roughridercog
Da Sheik wrote:
There will always be allowances made for certain ministers. I’ve seen it over the course of my ministry. Different standards for different guys. It’s not right , but it’s reality. I’ve seen guys whose credentials should have been revoked “promoted” to larger churches. And I’ve seen others do far less and receive strict discipline.

I try to be “Kingdom”- minded. So with that said, I don’t have any problem w our guys ministering outside of our camp. But in reality, they might be better served just seeking credentials and/or ordination with another denomination that offers them opportunity. Just my $0.02


We all know that allowances are made for special guys and circumstances. It isn't always fair but it still exists.
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1/25/19 1:11 pm


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Post Cojak
roughridercog wrote:
...
We all know that allowances are made for special guys and circumstances. It isn't always fair but it still exists.

funny that (not hahahaha) the officials know that. They know YOU (the 'other' credentialed troops) KNOW, but it still happens.

In my heart I do not understand how that can be.

I realize that most likely a small percentage of COG ministers drop by here on a regular basis, but they represent the average hard working COG pastor and struggling young evangelists hoping to be considered for a pastorate. From the pew, i hope the senior administrators understand the feelings and consider a way to solve the problems, because there are problems. It does effect morale.
Just my $.02 also. Smile
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1/25/19 11:33 pm


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Post roughridercog
Cojak wrote:
roughridercog wrote:
...
We all know that allowances are made for special guys and circumstances. It isn't always fair but it still exists.

funny that (not hahahaha) the officials know that. They know YOU (the 'other' credentialed troops) KNOW, but it still happens.

In my heart I do not understand how that can be.

I realize that most likely a small percentage of COG ministers drop by here on a regular basis, but they represent the average hard working COG pastor and struggling young evangelists hoping to be considered for a pastorate. From the pew, i hope the senior administrators understand the feelings and consider a way to solve the problems, because there are problems. It does effect morale.
Just my $.02 also. Smile


It creates in my opinion an ever widening gap between the men in the field and administration on multiple levels.
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1/26/19 8:05 am


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Post Dean Steenburgh
FLRon wrote:
A former pastor resigned the church to become Jentezens associate pastor. All done with the blessings of the AB. Fast forward a few months and he gets a letter telling him to resign or turn in his credentials. To his credit he told them to get lost,so to speak.
I mean nothing to the COG, long ago abandoned by the side of the road by them, and far as the people calling the shots I take comfort in the knowledge that God is keeping score.
I attend a COG currently only because it is the most non-charismatic Pentecostal church in the area that I'm aware of.


Did you intend to say non-charismatic?
because it is the most non-charismatic Pentecostal church in the area

.
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1/26/19 2:03 pm


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Post roughridercog
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
FLRon wrote:
A former pastor resigned the church to become Jentezens associate pastor. All done with the blessings of the AB. Fast forward a few months and he gets a letter telling him to resign or turn in his credentials. To his credit he told them to get lost,so to speak.
I mean nothing to the COG, long ago abandoned by the side of the road by them, and far as the people calling the shots I take comfort in the knowledge that God is keeping score.
I attend a COG currently only because it is the most non-charismatic Pentecostal church in the area that I'm aware of.


Did you intend to say non-charismatic?
because it is the most non-charismatic Pentecostal church in the area

.


I understand what he is saying. In many people's thinking, charismatic is tantamount to name it and claim it, case of CopelandHagin, social drinking tongue talkers. Pentecostal in many minds, is tantamount of glossalia, traditional music and worship, and a more conservative standard.
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1/26/19 2:22 pm


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Post Stinkin Cheese2
Why the double-standard. Jentezen Franklin pastors a church outside of the COG. Perry Stone had his own ministry outside the COG for years. Lamar Vest worked outside the COG and never had an issue. The list could go on and on with both big names and names most have never heard of. But then let an AB get his feathers ruffled and he starts yanking credentials from men who have been in the COG for 25-30 years or more. I was under the impression we were to build the Kingdom of God, not the kingdom of the Church of God. I was speaking with a man who was forced out this weekend and the idea came up that maybe it is time that someone challenges this action in court. The precedent has been set with the likes of those mentioned above and I believe the challenger would win big if this ever did come before the courts.
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Post Quiet Wyatt
I contacted Perry Stone’s ministry last year because I heard he had turned in his credentials to the CoG. His ministry said that it was true, though they offered no explanation as to why. Acts-perienced Poster
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1/28/19 11:03 am


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Post roughridercog
Stinkin Cheese2 wrote:
Why the double-standard. Jentezen Franklin pastors a church outside of the COG. Perry Stone has his own ministry outside the COG. Lamar Vest worked outside the COG. The list could go on and on with both big names and names most have never heard of. But then let a rogue AB get his feathers ruffled and he starts yanking credentials from men who have been in the COG for 30 years or more. I was under the impression we were to build the Kingdom of God, not the kingdom of the Church of God. I was speaking with a man who was forced out this weekend and the idea came up that maybe it is time that someone challenges this action in court. The precedent has been set with the likes of those mentioned above and I believe the challenger would win big if this ever did come before the courts.


Sounds like the time honored "not what you know but who you know."

In all honesty, there needs to be equity across the board. I'm curious whether a court would even hear a case of obvious discrimination like this or whether anyone would take it that far. Maybe an attorney wanting to make a name for himself. Laughing
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Post Darrell Garrett
I'll probably get blasted for posting in this, but what else is new. I'm in this situation. I've been COG all of my life. My father and his father before him were both Ordained in the COG. I've held credentials for 33 years, pastored my first church in 1986 and been pastoring full-time with the exception of two years since 1991. I took some time off from pastoring in 1999 but then was asked to fill in at an independent church where the pastor had a massive heart attack and I filled that pulpit for almost 18 months with the full knowledge and consent of our then AB. Fast forward to today, I've resigned my church where I pastored for just shy of 15 years and have taken an associate pastor position in an independent church. I told my AB that the senior pastor and I would like to discuss with him the possibility of bringing this church into the COG as an affiliated church, but I have been told that I must surrender my credentials or face having them revoked. I must say, I don't understand the reasoning, but that's not my decision to make, it is the AB's. So, it looks like if I am to walk out what I know to be God's will for my ministry, I will be forced to walk away from the movement that I have been a part of for 60 years. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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2/10/19 10:22 pm


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Post roughridercog
Darrell Garrett wrote:
I'll probably get blasted for posting in this, but what else is new. I'm in this situation. I've been COG all of my life. My father and his father before him were both Ordained in the COG. I've held credentials for 33 years, pastored my first church in 1986 and been pastoring full-time with the exception of two years since 1991. I took some time off from pastoring in 1999 but then was asked to fill in at an independent church where the pastor had a massive heart attack and I filled that pulpit for almost 18 months with the full knowledge and consent of our then AB. Fast forward to today, I've resigned my church where I pastored for just shy of 15 years and have taken an associate pastor position in an independent church. I told my AB that the senior pastor and I would like to discuss with him the possibility of bringing this church into the COG as an affiliated church, but I have been told that I must surrender my credentials or face having them revoked. I must say, I don't understand the reasoning, but that's not my decision to make, it is the AB's. So, it looks like if I am to walk out what I know to be God's will for my ministry, I will be forced to walk away from the movement that I have been a part of for 60 years.


This is exactly the type situation that I am talking about. Is our focus of the kingdom of God so narrow that we can't ordain our people for ministry and send them forth?
Why must a ministers credentials be pulled? Is it up to the whim of an AB? Is it a control issue? If there is no doctrinal or moral failing, then why not let it happen? Why not allow a minister to preach the Gospel in a place where he/she can be successful? Is it because headquarters won't own the deed? Is it because an administrator can't pull a persons from the church on a whim?

Let's be honest. We have men pastoring churches outside the movement. Why should one be allowed while another faces threats of having papers pulled?
What is the criteria for such a procedure?
Why one and not another? Is it because one is well known while another is not?

It's time for us as an organization to educate, disciple, and release our people for ministry.
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Post sheepdogandy
SPWC can do everything the "big boys" can.

We license and ordain ministers.

Several months ago, SPWC Inc. ordained our first at large minister who now pastors an independent congregation in Demopolis, AL.

I have always encouraged our preachers to accept every opportunity they receive.

Our Licensed and Ordained folk operate under guidelines established by the Church Conference.

If any one of them (including myself) offends said guidelines their papers can (and will) be revoked.

Works for us, since 1989. Very Happy
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2/11/19 11:54 am


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Post Darrell Garrett
Allow me to clarify a couple of things about my post above. Some have apparently felt that I was attacking my AB and the COG. That was not my intention. I am simply voicing my extreme frustration. If I did not love my AB and the Church of God, I'd just walk away quietly. What is to be gained by going out throwing darts? I understand that the Minutes does not allow room for men to serve outside the COG. My AB stands by the Minutes, and I can respect that. My issue is that This AB chooses to follow the Minutes and another does not. This should be universal. I thought that was the purpose of Roughrider's post which started this. We either need to adhere to this or remove it from the Minutes entirely. The Bible speaks of a double-minded man and taking liberty with that passage, I'll say it speaks to our denomination. We cannot have it both ways, and it needs to be enforced across the board or removed from our Minutes. Just my opinion. You can agree or disagree, but THAT is the intent of my post above. I wrestled with commenting on this for nearly 2 weeks before deciding to do so. I'm sorry some took it as an attack on my AB and/or the COG. That was and is not my intention at all. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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2/11/19 4:02 pm


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Post Meeting are Great Dow Moses
Minutes are great when applied evenly and consistently. They can also be used to accomplish a goal. We have all used them to benefit us. Lol
Growing up my dads family all went to a independent church. Most of their pastors and evangelist were COG. Never saw these men lose their COG credentials. I’ve seen men pastor outside the denomination. Some seem to do it without any problem. Others pay a price. Blessings my friend on your ministry. God is in control. Just don’t let it become a hurt.
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2/12/19 9:49 am


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Post Re: Meeting are Great Darrell Garrett
Dow Moses wrote:
Minutes are great when applied evenly and consistently. They can also be used to accomplish a goal. We have all used them to benefit us. Lol
Growing up my dads family all went to a independent church. Most of their pastors and evangelist were COG. Never saw these men lose their COG credentials. I’ve seen men pastor outside the denomination. Some seem to do it without any problem. Others pay a price. Blessings my friend on your ministry. God is in control. Just don’t let it become a hurt.


Thank you, Dow Your friendship means a lot. Praying for you and hope you are out of the hospital today. Love you, brother!
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2/12/19 9:56 am


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Post Re: Meeting are Great Mat
Dow Moses wrote:
Minutes are great when applied evenly and consistently. They can also be used to accomplish a goal. We have all used them to benefit us. Lol
Growing up my dads family all went to a independent church. Most of their pastors and evangelist were COG. Never saw these men lose their COG credentials. I’ve seen men pastor outside the denomination. Some seem to do it without any problem. Others pay a price. Blessings my friend on your ministry. God is in control. Just don’t let it become a hurt.


Dow Moses,

I'm amazed at the preponderance of minutes, polity, rules, regulations, powers and positions (not to mention traditions) that have developed in the all the Pentecostal Movement denominations in just over 100 years. I'm not sure the vision our early pioneers had in mind when they gathered for their first assembly at the Murphy house in January of 1906, for the first assembly of just four little local churches (you could argue this is where the COG really got organized).

There are so many rulings and polity to pick and choose from, often those who "rule" in the church apply the ones that work for them knowing that if they can point to a policy or power there will be no consequences. Is it really surprising that younger people who are called to pastor are not locked in to a denomination anymore, but focus on what is the best "fit" in the place they feel called to. I, perhaps like others on the forum, am a "dinosaur" - I committed to the system and the system determined where I would minister and for how long. Some will run their race in the system, some will find God leading out of the system, many will never join the system - all can be in God's will.

I remember being told a joke (I think it was a joke) about the late Jack Hyles and the 100 member deacon board of First Baptist Church in Hammond, IN. It is told that when a new member of the board, a very qualified and successful man (no women need apply) offered a differ view from that of Pastor Hyles in a meeting, the Pastor responded, "just so you know, I believe in theocratic and my name is "Theo." Maybe that's a little embellished, but I was told Pastor Hyles told the new man, "the reason you're on this board is to support my vision."

It looks like the AB is Theo!

Mat
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2/12/19 11:16 am


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Post Darrell Garrett
Mat, I think that the last sentence is a little unfair. A man becomes AB and is given the Minutes book to operate by. Some choose to ignore those Minutes, but in this case, my AB adheres to the guidelines he is given and he is made out to be the bad guy. I understand completely my AB's decision. The point of my post, continuing with the line of thought that Roughrider proposed with his original post is that it's time the men of the COG make some changes. There is a clear issue of some following and some not following. I respect a man for holding to his principles. When you lose your integrity, you are finished. Again, my point in posting in this thread is not to whine or complain, rather it is to say to the men of the COG, it's time to either make the change and allow people to utilize their gifts where ever God opens a door, but if they are not willing to do so, then make a rule that is enforced equally across the board for all. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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2/12/19 12:52 pm


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Post I can see your perspective ... Mat
Darrell Garrett wrote:
Mat, I think that the last sentence is a little unfair. A man becomes AB and is given the Minutes book to operate by. Some choose to ignore those Minutes, but in this case, my AB adheres to the guidelines he is given and he is made out to be the bad guy. I understand completely my AB's decision. The point of my post, continuing with the line of thought that Roughrider proposed with his original post is that it's time the men of the COG make some changes. There is a clear issue of some following and some not following. I respect a man for holding to his principles. When you lose your integrity, you are finished. Again, my point in posting in this thread is not to whine or complain, rather it is to say to the men of the COG, it's time to either make the change and allow people to utilize their gifts where ever God opens a door, but if they are not willing to do so, then make a rule that is enforced equally across the board for all.


I can see your perspective, my apologies for using such a "broad stroke of the brush" to forward my thoughts without really knowing your particular situation.

Mat
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2/12/19 2:32 pm


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Post roughridercog
Darrell Garrett wrote:
Allow me to clarify a couple of things about my post above. Some have apparently felt that I was attacking my AB and the COG. That was not my intention. I am simply voicing my extreme frustration. If I did not love my AB and the Church of God, I'd just walk away quietly. What is to be gained by going out throwing darts? I understand that the Minutes does not allow room for men to serve outside the COG. My AB stands by the Minutes, and I can respect that. My issue is that This AB chooses to follow the Minutes and another does not. This should be universal. I thought that was the purpose of Roughrider's post which started this. We either need to adhere to this or remove it from the Minutes entirely. The Bible speaks of a double-minded man and taking liberty with that passage, I'll say it speaks to our denomination. We cannot have it both ways, and it needs to be enforced across the board or removed from our Minutes. Just my opinion. You can agree or disagree, but THAT is the intent of my post above. I wrestled with commenting on this for nearly 2 weeks before deciding to do so. I'm sorry some took it as an attack on my AB and/or the COG. That was and is not my intention at all.


That was the exact point of my original post. We can debate this until the cows come home, but let's own up to one thing: All men are not treated equally.
If one man is allowed to pastor a church outside of the movement while another may be villainized or even lose his credentials, then there is one word to describe this.
Discrimination.
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