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FLRon |
A former pastor resigned the church to become Jentezens associate pastor. All done with the blessings of the AB. Fast forward a few months and he gets a letter telling him to resign or turn in his credentials. To his credit he told them to get lost,so to speak.
I mean nothing to the COG, long ago abandoned by the side of the road by them, and far as the people calling the shots I take comfort in the knowledge that God is keeping score.
I attend a COG currently only because it is the most non-charismatic Pentecostal church in the area that I'm aware of.
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“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Voddie Baucham |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 767
1/22/19 5:57 pm
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| Tough question time |
roughridercog |
Why kick out good people preaching good doctrine to hungry hearts? Isn't our vision big enough to give people leeway to minister?
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
1/22/19 6:52 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I agree there should be something stated in the Minutes that clarifies this. I don’t think it is wise to just allow it to be solely up to the state AB, though I wonder how it could work otherwise with our system of govt. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
1/22/19 7:51 pm
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roughridercog |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I agree there should be something stated in the Minutes that clarifies this. I don’t think it is wise to just allow it to be solely up to the state AB, though I wonder how it could work otherwise with our system of govt. |
How about allowing ministers to pastor churches outside the organization, teach in colleges and seminaries outside the organization providing these institutions do not teach doctrine contrary to the teachings of the COG. I believe it would be an interesting topic to debate at the General Assembly.
Nah, they wouldn't even allow it on the agenda. 
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
1/23/19 8:42 am
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sheepdogandy |
Centralized government, ya gotta love it! 
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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7298
1/23/19 10:45 am
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Cojak |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | | Centralized government, ya gotta love it! |
Yeah that is a fact, I do love and appreciate some of it. No different than other situations, it definitely has its draw backs. Anytime the 'human' factor comes into play there arises a defense mechanism to protect the 'status quo' because it works pretty well until "WE" humans leave out HIS direction and wander off.
I would not be there of course, but this subject should come up on the GA floor. I have forgotten all I knew about parliamentary law, but once some preacher was able to bring something to the floor that was not on the agenda. Musta been in the early 60's, because that year I was an exhorter up in the p-nut gallery during the day. I remember many people getting a kick out of it. I am sure that 'loop hole' was closed. It was challenged but who ever was the 'Parliamentary Law' advisor sided with the member above the powers that be.
I believe it was actually in the nite session the last night when the motions were being approved by the entire GA????? But it did happen. Do they still do that on the last night??
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24275
1/23/19 11:45 am
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| Let me ask another tough question |
roughridercog |
If COG ministers would be allowed to pastor outside the organization, would it expand opportunities for ministers and ministries or cause multiple small churches within the denomination to close due to a lack of pastors?
Tough question, eh?
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
1/23/19 6:49 pm
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| Re: Let me ask another tough question |
Quiet Wyatt |
| roughridercog wrote: | If COG ministers would be allowed to pastor outside the organization, would it expand opportunities for ministers and ministries or cause multiple small churches within the denomination to close due to a lack of pastors?
Tough question, eh? |
I doubt it would result in a major lack of pastors within the CoG. As far as I can tell, except for missions states, we have more than enough guys with credentials who are wanting to pastor. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
1/23/19 7:05 pm
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| Re: Let me ask another tough question |
Cojak |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | If COG ministers would be allowed to pastor outside the organization, would it expand opportunities for ministers and ministries or cause multiple small churches within the denomination to close due to a lack of pastors?
Tough question, eh? |
I doubt it would result in a major lack of pastors within the CoG. As far as I can tell, except for missions states, we have more than enough guys with credentials who are wanting to pastor. |
I agree with QW here. I think it would be a blessing to the COG and I do not believe the finances would suffer noticeably. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24275
1/23/19 9:37 pm
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| Re: Let me ask another tough question |
roughridercog |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | If COG ministers would be allowed to pastor outside the organization, would it expand opportunities for ministers and ministries or cause multiple small churches within the denomination to close due to a lack of pastors?
Tough question, eh? |
I doubt it would result in a major lack of pastors within the CoG. As far as I can tell, except for missions states, we have more than enough guys with credentials who are wanting to pastor. |
One potential difficulty I see is that ministers may forgo pastoring small churches in the COG where pastors minister with no salary or even end up paying church bills themselves for the option of pastoring independent churches that can pay a salary.
Opinions?
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
1/24/19 8:09 am
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| If I remember right ... |
Mat |
If I remember right, the Pentecostal COG and the AOG made an agreement which recognized each others ordination/license/credentials, so they could minister in each others churches. If I remember right (which I'm going on memory) there was a talent drain from the PCOG to AOG churches. The "cream" of the PCOG moved up.
I don't know if the agreement is still in force, but I know the PCOG moved their HQ out of Missouri to Texas. Some of this had to do with the damage to the town of Joplin where they were based, but it also created distance from Springfield.
Early on in the COG Movement, ministers like AJT, Bryant, Spurling, etc, preached where ever they could. The ordination did not stop their participation in the broader movement. Denominations that what to control their ministers by not allowing them opportunity outside the structure are either driven by a desire to maintain a money stream or fearful of a talent (Gifted if you like) drain.
There is something wrong with a leader who would rather keep a minister idle and in the fold than support fuller participation in the Kingdom. It seems that it would only enhance the denomination. Perhaps there could be a revenue stream for such cases like the AOG has.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
1/24/19 8:45 am
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| Re: If I remember right ... |
roughridercog |
| Mat wrote: | If I remember right, the Pentecostal COG and the AOG made an agreement which recognized each others ordination/license/credentials, so they could minister in each others churches. If I remember right (which I'm going on memory) there was a talent drain from the PCOG to AOG churches. The "cream" of the PCOG moved up.
I don't know if the agreement is still in force, but I know the PCOG moved their HQ out of Missouri to Texas. Some of this had to do with the damage to the town of Joplin where they were based, but it also created distance from Springfield.
Early on in the COG Movement, ministers like AJT, Bryant, Spurling, etc, preached where ever they could. The ordination did not stop their participation in the broader movement. Denominations that what to control their ministers by not allowing them opportunity outside the structure are either driven by a desire to maintain a money stream or fearful of a talent (Gifted if you like) drain.
There is something wrong with a leader who would rather keep a minister idle and in the fold than support fuller participation in the Kingdom. It seems that it would only enhance the denomination. Perhaps there could be a revenue stream for such cases like the AOG has.
Mat |
Perhaps it would allow more men to be in the field. Rather than waiting for a COG to "open up" or men being frustrated because politics is causing other individuals to be placed in churches, it would allow ministers to take a more active role in the direction and geographic area they would like to minister in if they were allowed to pastor churches outside the organization.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
1/24/19 9:24 am
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| Re: If I remember right ... |
Cojak |
| Mat wrote: | ...
There is something wrong with a leader who would rather keep a minister idle and in the fold than support fuller participation in the Kingdom. It seems that it would only enhance the denomination. Perhaps there could be a revenue stream for such cases like the AOG has.
Mat |
That would be my thoughts exactly. Many times I miss the 'back story' with my opinions. there maybe a down side.
That losing 'talent of gifted' happens all the time, just not on a big scale. The COG would lose some, but gain a lot in the hearts of their ministers, methinks. Sometimes smoothing feathers by leveling the playing field is worth the changes.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24275
1/24/19 10:57 am
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| Re: Let me ask another tough question |
Quiet Wyatt |
| roughridercog wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | If COG ministers would be allowed to pastor outside the organization, would it expand opportunities for ministers and ministries or cause multiple small churches within the denomination to close due to a lack of pastors?
Tough question, eh? |
I doubt it would result in a major lack of pastors within the CoG. As far as I can tell, except for missions states, we have more than enough guys with credentials who are wanting to pastor. |
One potential difficulty I see is that ministers may forgo pastoring small churches in the COG where pastors minister with no salary or even end up paying church bills themselves for the option of pastoring independent churches that can pay a salary.
Opinions? |
Question, as I honestly do not know: Do independent churches, on average, tend to be more financially stable and thus able to support a pastor financially?
In any case, there is nothing, except loyalty to the CoG, keeping CoG ministers from taking an independent church as it is. I myself pursued that route several years ago when there was nothing opening up for my wife and I in the CoG. I interviewed with a few churches at the time, but nothing really looked all that promising. Quite frankly, I was definitely turned off by the way the independent churches I interviewed with operated. You could definitely tell the board was in charge and were looking for a hireling they could be over. At least that was the distinct impression I got. Your mileage may vary, of course.
It is just speculation on my part, of course, but I don’t see the CoG allowing for this as causing a mass exodus of ministers towards nondenominational ranks. Going nondenom is already a real option for CoG preachers (if they wish to leave) and from what I’ve seen, that CoG credential on the wall is not nearly as powerful an influence as, say, a wedding band is, regarding loyalty, and yet we still have plenty of CoG guys sitting around waiting for a church to come open. I also don’t get the impression that there are all that many good nondenominational churches out there enticing CoG ministers away from the denomination. I could of course be mistaken about that. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
1/24/19 12:57 pm
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| Re: Let me ask another tough question |
roughridercog |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | If COG ministers would be allowed to pastor outside the organization, would it expand opportunities for ministers and ministries or cause multiple small churches within the denomination to close due to a lack of pastors?
Tough question, eh? |
I doubt it would result in a major lack of pastors within the CoG. As far as I can tell, except for missions states, we have more than enough guys with credentials who are wanting to pastor. |
One potential difficulty I see is that ministers may forgo pastoring small churches in the COG where pastors minister with no salary or even end up paying church bills themselves for the option of pastoring independent churches that can pay a salary.
Opinions? |
Question, as I honestly do not know: Do independent churches, on average, tend to be more financially stable and thus able to support a pastor financially?
In any case, there is nothing, except loyalty to the CoG, keeping CoG ministers from taking an independent church as it is. I myself pursued that route several years ago when there was nothing opening up for my wife and I in the CoG. I interviewed with a few churches at the time, but nothing really looked all that promising. Quite frankly, I was definitely turned off by the way the independent churches I interviewed with operated. You could definitely tell the board was in charge and were looking for a hireling they could be over. At least that was the distinct impression I got. Your mileage may vary, of course.
It is just speculation on my part, of course, but I don’t see the CoG allowing for this as causing a mass exodus of ministers towards nondenominational ranks. Going nondenom is already a real option for CoG preachers (if they wish to leave) and from what I’ve seen, that CoG credential on the wall is not nearly as powerful an influence as, say, a wedding band is, regarding loyalty, and yet we still have plenty of CoG guys sitting around waiting for a church to come open. I also don’t get the impression that there are all that many good nondenominational churches out there enticing CoG ministers away from the denomination. I could of course be mistaken about that. |
It would be very different no doubt for many COG men to have to deal with a board rather than be in charge themselves.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
1/24/19 2:05 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
For what it’s worth, I have never led a church autocratically. I have always approached leadership with a sincere aim of building consensus on decisions, walking in the unity of the Spirit, and I have always, always included all members in major decisions. So it’s not as if I feel I have to be the unchallenged boss or anything like that.
The independent churches I interviewed with in the past were definitely wanting to make sure the board was in charge though. I just don’t see that (bossiness in general) as scriptural, no matter if it is from the pastor, board, or AB. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
1/24/19 2:44 pm
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roughridercog |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | For what it’s worth, I have never led a church autocratically. I have always approached leadership with a sincere aim of building consensus on decisions, walking in the unity of the Spirit, and I have always, always included all members in major decisions. So it’s not as if I feel I have to be the unchallenged boss or anything like that.
The independent churches I interviewed with in the past were definitely wanting to make sure the board was in charge though. I just don’t see that (bossiness in general) as scriptural, no matter if it is from the pastor, board, or AB. |
I agree but many of our smaller churches are often one man shows where the pastor (and his family) decide everything. The church becomes used to it and enjoys functioning like that and only concerned with having a place to shout on Sunday morning.
Would many of our pastors have too large an adjustment to pastor an independent church with a board taking responsibility for the every day functions of the church?
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
1/24/19 3:19 pm
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| OK, a positive for ... |
Mat |
OK, a positive for being a COG Pastor is the retirement plan - for those churches/pastor who participate (I don't know if all do). Retirement should give us all pause.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
1/24/19 3:45 pm
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| Re: OK, a positive for ... |
roughridercog |
| Mat wrote: | OK, a positive for being a COG Pastor is the retirement plan - for those churches/pastor who participate (I don't know if all do). Retirement should give us all pause.
Mat |
I know many COG pastors who do. Ot use the retirement plan. In their mind, since they aren't taking a salary, why use what little money they have for the plan. Hence, the work a secular job for a retirement plan and insurance, etc.
I've known of too many pastors who were pastoring because they could not afford not to since they couldn't afford housing.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
1/24/19 5:53 pm
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Dow Moses |
There are many retirement plans out there. My COG plan is about the same growth as my Smith Barney account. I wish more churches was able to pay into them for their pastor. I know Independent churches that do as well.
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DOW MOSES |
Friendly Face
Posts: 100
1/25/19 9:55 am
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