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TD Jakes: Orthodox or no ?
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Post Resident Skeptic
Eddie Robbins wrote:
I’m in the “I don’t know and neither do you and it really doesn’t matter” camp. 😂


I tend to agree, as far as it relates to one's salvation. But boy extremists on both sides indeed make it a heaven and hell issue.
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10/13/18 12:47 pm


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Post TD jakes Dunamis007
Tommy Tenney. et al are not saved, non-trinitarion, well-intentioned evangelical non-christians and resident skeptic is from what i have read of his posts, seemingly included in this heresy. This thread is making a mockery of the truth and is a perfect example of the new doctrine of inclusion so much of the church is embracing. In our quest to get along we are allowing heresy to take over and our minds are becoming clouded.

Read this pull quote from an article on the analysis on the oneness heresy.

http://scriptoriumdaily.com/oneness-pentecostalism-an-analysis/

It is possible to identify the right God and yet have some wrong, unbiblical ideas about him. Where is the line between worshiping the wrong God, and worshiping the right God the wrong way? At some point in our doctrinal apprehensions of God (which are our human responses to his revelation), we approach a line beyond which we are not merely having some bad ideas about God, but are actually mis-construing his very identity. A Christian should be able to walk into a room full of putative gods and pick out the true one. The true one is that one divine Being who in the Old Testament made his oneness clear, and in the New Testament made clear that as the one God, he “eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
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10/13/18 2:57 pm


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Post Re: TD jakes Resident Skeptic
Dunamis007 wrote:
Tommy Tenney. et al are not saved, non-trinitarion, well-intentioned evangelical non-christians and resident skeptic is from what i have read of his posts, seemingly included in this heresy. This thread is making a mockery of the truth and is a perfect example of the new doctrine of inclusion so much of the church is embracing. In our quest to get along we are allowing heresy to take over and our minds are becoming clouded.

Read this pull quote from an article on the analysis on the oneness heresy.

http://scriptoriumdaily.com/oneness-pentecostalism-an-analysis/

It is possible to identify the right God and yet have some wrong, unbiblical ideas about him. Where is the line between worshiping the wrong God, and worshiping the right God the wrong way? At some point in our doctrinal apprehensions of God (which are our human responses to his revelation), we approach a line beyond which we are not merely having some bad ideas about God, but are actually mis-construing his very identity. A Christian should be able to walk into a room full of putative gods and pick out the true one. The true one is that one divine Being who in the Old Testament made his oneness clear, and in the New Testament made clear that as the one God, he “eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”



For starters, I quoted a trinitarian whose book is a text book at an Assemblies of God graduate school.

Secondly, the Apostles in Acts preached "Jesus of NAZARETH". Do you? They never mentioned Christ's Heavenly origins.

Thirdly, trinitarian Evangelical churches do not teach embracing the trinity as a prerequisite to salvation. They teach "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". One would be hard pressed to find a sinner accepting Christ in an Evangelical or Pentecostal altar that has any concept of trinitarian doctrine.

Fourth, I've been attending a Southern Baptist church for two years.

Fifth, the article you cited is way off...

Quote:
*Splitting Jesus Christ into a human person and a separate divine person, so that the one can pray to the other as “the Father.” (This is a form of the Nestorian heresy)



Sorry, but that is not the oneness doctrine. The guy should at least understand what he is debating and you should make sure he does before you create links to his articles.
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10/13/18 3:26 pm


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Post Just because Dunamis007
Shelly's text book is used in an AG univ. doesn't mean they endorse everything written in the book. They use Gruden's systematic theology textbook as well and Gruden is a Calvinist and cessationist. These books are used with caveats as much oj f what they teach is correct but not all. Additionally, just because you're attending a Baptist church doesn't make you a calvinist trinitarian. Living in a garage doesn't make you an automobile either. It's pretty obvious where you stand on the oneness issue. You are a modalist and so is tenney and jakes. Are you all well intentioned, probably but as we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Heresy in any form is still heresy and embracing heresy just because a few like jakes are good communicators is still wrong. In 1916 and 1918 the AG adopted a statement of fundamental truths better known as a doctrinal statement precisely to deal with the oneness heresy. Here we are 100 years later still trying to foist this heresy on an unsuspecting church. Shame on you and shame in any who in their misguided attempt for unity embrace it as well. Member
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10/13/18 3:57 pm


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Post Re: Just because Resident Skeptic
Dunamis007 wrote:
Shelly's text book is used in an AG univ. doesn't mean they endorse everything written in the book. They use Gruden's systematic theology textbook as well and Gruden is a Calvinist and cessationist. These books are used with caveats as much oj f what they teach is correct but not all. Additionally, just because you're attending a Baptist church doesn't make you a calvinist trinitarian. Living in a garage doesn't make you an automobile either. It's pretty obvious where you stand on the oneness issue. You are a modalist and so is tenney and jakes. Are you all well intentioned, probably but as we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Heresy in any form is still heresy and embracing heresy just because a few like jakes are good communicators is still wrong. In 1916 and 1918 the AG adopted a statement of fundamental truths better known as a doctrinal statement precisely to deal with the oneness heresy. Here we are 100 years later still trying to foist this heresy on an unsuspecting church. Shame on you and shame in any who in their misguided attempt for unity embrace it as well.


You selectively chose to answer only one point I raised. But since you did, Shelly, McGrath and many other trinitarian scholars are convinced their view is the orthodox view. Are you saying these men are lost? Again, no sinner accepting Christ in an Evangelical church has any concept of trinitarian theology. They only know they are a sinner and that the Son of God died for them.

Furthermore, I could not care less about oneness Pentecostals. What they teach is trinitarianism (at least a form of it) in denial.
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10/13/18 4:03 pm


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Post Dunamis007 Aaron Scott
Dunamis007 wrote:
Tommy Tenney. et al are not saved, non-trinitarion, well-intentioned evangelical non-christians and resident skeptic is from what i have read of his posts, seemingly included in this heresy. This thread is making a mockery of the truth and is a perfect example of the new doctrine of inclusion so much of the church is embracing. In our quest to get along we are allowing heresy to take over and our minds are becoming clouded.

HOGWASH. You do not have to be trinitarian to be saved. It shouldn't even BE a doctrine. Why? Because I am fully persuaded that it cannot be clearly established from scripture. Yes, there is SUPPORT for it in scripture, but no clear statement of it there. Further, if you take ALL the scriptures and try to see which way it all is leaning, it is STILL unclear!

This doesn't mean it's wrong. But let's not act like it's a an absolute from scripture. I would venture that any theologian who has studied the trinity is in depth knows that there are numerous difficulties with this doctrine. It is certainly not on par with such clear statements of scripture as 1) There is one God; 2) Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God; 3) Jesus was born of a virgin; 4) Jesus died on the cross; 5) Jesus rose from the dead; ascended, and is coming again.

THOSE doctrines cannot be denied with any effect--it is too clear in scripture.

The Trinity is not so.

And Oneness, while we may not like it, may reject it, etc., has it's "arguments' (as do we) for their view. Being saved is not dependent upon your view of the Trinity, but upon your view of believing that Jesus is the Son of God and died for our sins, etc.

Besides, if having a good understanding of the trinity was necessary to salvation, I would wager than perhaps 70% of Church of God members would accept the Potter's House's statements as being fully acceptable. Only theologians and those who enjoy theology parse the meaning of "manifestations" etc.




Read this pull quote from an article on the analysis on the oneness heresy.

http://scriptoriumdaily.com/oneness-pentecostalism-an-analysis/

It is possible to identify the right God and yet have some wrong, unbiblical ideas about him. Where is the line between worshiping the wrong God, and worshiping the right God the wrong way? At some point in our doctrinal apprehensions of God (which are our human responses to his revelation), we approach a line beyond which we are not merely having some bad ideas about God, but are actually mis-construing his very identity. A Christian should be able to walk into a room full of putative gods and pick out the true one. The true one is that one divine Being who in the Old Testament made his oneness clear, and in the New Testament made clear that as the one God, he “eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
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10/15/18 9:11 am


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Post Re: Dunamis007 Resident Skeptic
Aaron Scott wrote:
Dunamis007 wrote:
Tommy Tenney. et al are not saved, non-trinitarion, well-intentioned evangelical non-christians and resident skeptic is from what i have read of his posts, seemingly included in this heresy. This thread is making a mockery of the truth and is a perfect example of the new doctrine of inclusion so much of the church is embracing. In our quest to get along we are allowing heresy to take over and our minds are becoming clouded.

HOGWASH. You do not have to be trinitarian to be saved. It shouldn't even BE a doctrine. Why? Because I am fully persuaded that it cannot be clearly established from scripture. Yes, there is SUPPORT for it in scripture, but no clear statement of it there. Further, if you take ALL the scriptures and try to see which way it all is leaning, it is STILL unclear!

This doesn't mean it's wrong. But let's not act like it's a an absolute from scripture. I would venture that any theologian who has studied the trinity is in depth knows that there are numerous difficulties with this doctrine. It is certainly not on par with such clear statements of scripture as 1) There is one God; 2) Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God; 3) Jesus was born of a virgin; 4) Jesus died on the cross; 5) Jesus rose from the dead; ascended, and is coming again.

THOSE doctrines cannot be denied with any effect--it is too clear in scripture.

The Trinity is not so.

And Oneness, while we may not like it, may reject it, etc., has it's "arguments' (as do we) for their view. Being saved is not dependent upon your view of the Trinity, but upon your view of believing that Jesus is the Son of God and died for our sins, etc.

Besides, if having a good understanding of the trinity was necessary to salvation, I would wager than perhaps 70% of Church of God members would accept the Potter's House's statements as being fully acceptable. Only theologians and those who enjoy theology parse the meaning of "manifestations" etc.




Read this pull quote from an article on the analysis on the oneness heresy.

http://scriptoriumdaily.com/oneness-pentecostalism-an-analysis/

It is possible to identify the right God and yet have some wrong, unbiblical ideas about him. Where is the line between worshiping the wrong God, and worshiping the right God the wrong way? At some point in our doctrinal apprehensions of God (which are our human responses to his revelation), w

e approach a line beyond which we are not merely having some bad ideas about God, but are actually mis-construing his very identity. A Christian should be able to walk into a room full of putative gods and pick out the true one. The true one is that one divine Being who in the Old Testament made his oneness clear, and in the New Testament made clear that as the one God, he “eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”





Thanks for your objectivity Aaron. It is so sad that people disfellowship each other over all of this.
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10/15/18 6:04 pm


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Post I don't have time to respond properly Dunamis007
To Aaron's idiocy but I will later. Good grief. Member
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10/15/18 8:25 pm


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Post Re: I don't have time to respond properly Resident Skeptic
Dunamis007 wrote:
To Aaron's idiocy but I will later. Good grief.


Perhaps you are in denial and Aaron has superior intellectual honesty. He did not deny the trinity. He simply admitted that, at least as it is often articulated, the doctrine raises major questions.
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Post Dunamis007 Aaron Scott
Dunamis007 wrote:
To Aaron's idiocy but I will later. Good grief.




Well, I am always open to correction, but as Resident Skeptic pointed out, I am not denying the trinity, I am simply admitting that it is a doctrine that might be called "The Emperor's New Clothes." That is, we all "amen" it, NOT because we can prove it, but because we dare not question it.

I do question it. I absolutely believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and I acknowledge that at least two of them are PERSONS (I'm just not sure how to frame the Holy Spirit--as He is known as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ). But HOW they fit together is the issue that both Trinitarians and Oneness believers are trying to solve.

It has not been solved. It has been declared by fiat. I simply claim that neither Trinitarians nor Oneness believers have a bomb-proof handle on the matter. But BOTH believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and the Jesus has a Father, and that there is also a Holy Spirit. Much of the contention is semantics, I believe. But semantics is very important to theologians. It might be that the lay members of both groups really could care less, but the theologians always care.
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10/16/18 10:19 am


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Post Re: Dunamis007 Resident Skeptic
Aaron Scott wrote:
Dunamis007 wrote:
To Aaron's idiocy but I will later. Good grief.




Well, I am always open to correction, but as Resident Skeptic pointed out, I am not denying the trinity, I am simply admitting that it is a doctrine that might be called "The Emperor's New Clothes." That is, we all "amen" it, NOT because we can prove it, but because we dare not question it.

I do question it. I absolutely believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and I acknowledge that at least two of them are PERSONS (I'm just not sure how to frame the Holy Spirit--as He is known as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ). But HOW they fit together is the issue that both Trinitarians and Oneness believers are trying to solve.

It has not been solved. It has been declared by fiat. I simply claim that neither Trinitarians nor Oneness believers have a bomb-proof handle on the matter. But BOTH believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and the Jesus has a Father, and that there is also a Holy Spirit. Much of the contention is semantics, I believe. But semantics is very important to theologians. It might be that the lay members of both groups really could care less, but the theologians always care.


Amen and amen !!
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Post Re: Dunamis007 Nature Boy Florida
Aaron Scott wrote:


I do question it. I absolutely believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and I acknowledge that at least two of them are PERSONS (I'm just not sure how to frame the Holy Spirit--as He is known as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ).


I'm glad Ray Hughes isn't here to see this. And you had me believing you listened to his sermons at campmeeting. Must have been out eating another snow cone and putting your best moves on the ladies while he was preaching - moves that failed miserably I must add.

His book explains "Who is the Holy Ghost" The person and work of the Holy Spirit.

Here is where you can pick up a copy: https://www.christianbook.com/who-is-the-holy-ghost/9781596840034/pd/84003X?en=google&event=SHOP&kw=christian-living-0-20%7C84003X&p=1179710&dv=c&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9KqAuKOL3gIVDI_ICh0jnQhXEAYYASABEgI3vfD_BwE
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Post Re: Dunamis007 Dave Dorsey
Aaron Scott wrote:
I absolutely believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and I acknowledge that at least two of them are PERSONS (I'm just not sure how to frame the Holy Spirit--as He is known as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ)

Shocked Shocked Shocked

If only there was a thorough, clear, incredibly well-articulated doctrinal understanding of this topic that had been affirmed throughout the centuries by every generation of Christ's church. That would be really convenient.
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Post Re: Dunamis007 Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
I absolutely believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and I acknowledge that at least two of them are PERSONS (I'm just not sure how to frame the Holy Spirit--as He is known as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ)

Shocked Shocked Shocked

If only there was a thorough, clear, incredibly well-articulated doctrinal understanding of this topic that had been affirmed throughout the centuries by every generation of Christ's church. That would be really convenient.


There are many such writings. Sadly, many of them seriously contradict each other, especially as it relates to what constitutes a "person".
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Post Re: Dunamis007 Resident Skeptic
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:


I do question it. I absolutely believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and I acknowledge that at least two of them are PERSONS (I'm just not sure how to frame the Holy Spirit--as He is known as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ).


I'm glad Ray Hughes isn't here to see this. And you had me believing you listened to his sermons at campmeeting. Must have been out eating another snow cone and putting your best moves on the ladies while he was preaching - moves that failed miserably I must add.

His book explains "Who is the Holy Ghost" The person and work of the Holy Spirit.

Here is where you can pick up a copy: https://www.christianbook.com/who-is-the-holy-ghost/9781596840034/pd/84003X?en=google&event=SHOP&kw=christian-living-0-20%7C84003X&p=1179710&dv=c&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9KqAuKOL3gIVDI_ICh0jnQhXEAYYASABEgI3vfD_BwE


Sure he is a person. He is God.

Now look at whose child Matthew 1:18 says Jesus was and scratch your head.
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Post NBF... Aaron Scott
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:


I do question it. I absolutely believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and I acknowledge that at least two of them are PERSONS (I'm just not sure how to frame the Holy Spirit--as He is known as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ).


I'm glad Ray Hughes isn't here to see this. And you had me believing you listened to his sermons at campmeeting. Must have been out eating another snow cone and putting your best moves on the ladies while he was preaching - moves that failed miserably I must add.


Listen, I'm almost positive that God would excuse me and say, "Aaron, I fully understand how a blue raspberry snow cone could cause you be outside with Ray H. Hughes was preaching. After all, I created the blue raspberry flavor. And it was OK to fail miserably with the ladies--you had better things to do...like eat a snow cone."

And then I'm almost positive God would say, "That NBF jerk? When you realize how messed up he is to be a Gator fan, the best route is...pity. Other men I would send to hell for being so stupid, but when it comes to NBF, I can't bear to do it. It would be like getting upset at a squid for failing an algebra test."










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Post Re: TD Jakes: Orthodox or no ? FLRon
Da Sheik wrote:
I know some will bristle at the notion that we should even question or examine any teacher. Admittedly, I am no heresy hunter. I trust God is going to separate the wheat from the tares at the appropriate time. Let me say something from the outset....I find his preaching immensely relevant. I don’t think I have ever listened to one of his sermons without gaining some insight. I can’t put my finger on it, but something just doesn’t seem quite right.


How are you defining"Orthodox"?
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