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Nature Boy Florida |
Teachers in Florida are continually submitting to background checks - even at the University level.
BUt perhaps preachers aren't as important to get it right.....
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
6/8/18 12:24 pm
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SouthFloridaman |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | | How do we know that they are not already doing background checks? |
I am referring to after the licensing. If someone moves up the credential ladder or they get high to rank of ordained bishop early in the ministry there could be a long time between background checks. Also What about ministers who were licensed before the background check mandate. I know of a Case where a guy was busted with a hooker from craigslist , but kept the whole thing under the radar. I know of domestic abuses cases. Child safety is just one of the many valid reason to have reoccurring background checks. I can think of domestic abuse as another valid reason. I also know of a situation with a minster who was not cog. The guy changed his name and moved out of the country when the guy moved back he slipped through the cracks. The person was found out on a Real estate site with a different name. Local police background checks only go so far. Checkr the company that planning center uses is by far the cheapest thorough background check you can buy. So many think a local police background check is enough it is not. What happens if the state does not share information with another state checkr and planning center goes further. Plus the process is automated
Last edited by SouthFloridaman on 6/9/18 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 358
6/8/18 7:50 pm
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Clint Wills |
| SouthFloridaman wrote: | | This is why we need annual and biennial background checks as part of a pastorial license renewal. After reading this article it makes me want to push for drug testing as well. This would go MILES in protecting our children and churches. It was posted on here months ago how to do a back ground check for $8 per person with a free data base. The way has been given is there a will to do the right thing. |
A background check won't show anything unless someone has been convicted. If we're so out of touch with our pastors that we don't know when they've been convicted of a crime, then we've seriously messed up. Everyone has a clean background check until they get caught. We run background checks on all of our staff when they are hired. We don't run them annually - or ever again for that matter - because I will know if they are arrested, tried, and convicted. They MIGHT be able to hide a DUI or something along those lines from me initially, but they wouldn't be able to hide the court proceedings that follow.
Lets be in touch with our pastors enough to know when they are getting arrested. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
6/9/18 8:22 am
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SouthFloridaman |
| Clint Wills wrote: | | SouthFloridaman wrote: | | This is why we need annual and biennial background checks as part of a pastorial license renewal. After reading this article it makes me want to push for drug testing as well. This would go MILES in protecting our children and churches. It was posted on here months ago how to do a back ground check for $8 per person with a free data base. The way has been given is there a will to do the right thing. |
A background check won't show anything unless someone has been convicted. If we're so out of touch with our pastors that we don't know when they've been convicted of a crime, then we've seriously messed up. Everyone has a clean background check until they get caught. We run background checks on all of our staff when they are hired. We don't run them annually - or ever again for that matter - because I will know if they are arrested, tried, and convicted. They MIGHT be able to hide a DUI or something along those lines from me initially, but they wouldn't be able to hide the court proceedings that follow.
Lets be in touch with our pastors enough to know when they are getting arrested. |
Tell that to the principle at your kid’s school that they should know enough about the teachers... also how is it possible to keep track of over 350 churches in one states. That is a Too much to put on a state overseer. An automated system that tracks it for us is the way to go.
Planning center has 3 status
Clear
Needs review-
Not clear-
It is all automated you can set yet to renew 1 or 2 years. If 1 yr is to Obsessive set the program to every 2 yrs. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 358
6/9/18 12:54 pm
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| How about this |
Ernie Long |
There would be no need of background checks if pastors were to network with one another, spend time with one another, and lose their fear that other pastors are out to steal their sheep.
Proverbs 27:17 says, “Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.†Therein lies the problem of ministry in the 21st century, there is no trust amongst our peers, which has led to pastors and churches becoming islands of isolation, believing no one cares to know who they are or what they do, until something like this happens and then the finger pointing begins and judgement rolls down the corridor.
I pastored in Ohio for thirteen years. I resigned from my church last August and moved to Kentucky, to this day, I have yet had one pastor from Ohio give me a call to see how I’m doing and I am known to over half of the pastors in Southern Ohio and at least a quarter of pastors in Northern Ohio.
We have to stop using the excuse of the organization is top heavy and they don’t care about the small church pastor, small church pastors don’t care for each other and it is time for us to start reaching out to each other, stop being strangers, get to know one another, and HOLD each other accountable.
Be Blessed |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1050
6/9/18 6:04 pm
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| Re: How about this |
Carolyn Smith |
| Ernie Long wrote: | There would be no need of background checks if pastors were to network with one another, spend time with one another, and lose their fear that other pastors are out to steal their sheep.
Proverbs 27:17 says, “Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.†Therein lies the problem of ministry in the 21st century, there is no trust amongst our peers, which has led to pastors and churches becoming islands of isolation, believing no one cares to know who they are or what they do, until something like this happens and then the finger pointing begins and judgement rolls down the corridor.
I pastored in Ohio for thirteen years. I resigned from my church last August and moved to Kentucky, to this day, I have yet had one pastor from Ohio give me a call to see how I’m doing and I am known to over half of the pastors in Southern Ohio and at least a quarter of pastors in Northern Ohio.
We have to stop using the excuse of the organization is top heavy and they don’t care about the small church pastor, small church pastors don’t care for each other and it is time for us to start reaching out to each other, stop being strangers, get to know one another, and HOLD each other accountable.
Be Blessed |
I think this is where the Pastoral Covenant Groups are supposed to kick in. At least, it seems like a great idea. I think if pastors trusted other pastors it would go a long way in causing true fellowship/friendship to happen.
It's sad...
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5909
6/9/18 10:04 pm
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Link |
I have heard that in the country I live in, if the people of a certan other religion do not like an evangelist, they may accuse him of breaking the law. Sometimes it is an accusation of breaking the law of vilifying religion. But they can also accuse him of nasty things like this.
I do not know the man and never heard of him, but it does seem like when people read a news report, they assume the report is accurate. I've had something false printed about me in a newspaper before-- nothing remotely like this, but it was enough to show me that the news isn't always accurate.
It is horrible if a preacher did something like this. It would also be horrible if a preacher did not do something like this, got lied about in the news, and then his brethren believed the lies.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
6/10/18 10:21 am
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MoonWalkingWithJesus |
| Link wrote: | I have heard that in the country I live in, if the people of a certan other religion do not like an evangelist, they may accuse him of breaking the law. Sometimes it is an accusation of breaking the law of vilifying religion. But they can also accuse him of nasty things like this.
I do not know the man and never heard of him, but it does seem like when people read a news report, they assume the report is accurate. I've had something false printed about me in a newspaper before-- nothing remotely like this, but it was enough to show me that the news isn't always accurate.
It is horrible if a preacher did something like this. It would also be horrible if a preacher did not do something like this, got lied about in the news, and then his brethren believed the lies. |
That’s why the cog needs procedures to address this.
Last edited by MoonWalkingWithJesus on 6/10/18 11:32 am; edited 4 times in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 141
6/10/18 10:27 am
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SouthFloridaman |
This is the police report.
https://www.scribd.com/book/380741936/Smith-Jr-Report
If anything it is more detailed than the news articles.
According to the police report The guy was literally caught with his pants down. Thank God Just by chance the police were nearby. The report would be way different if they weren’t. Another sad thing is this I hear people asking where are the parents. This guy was intentionally dropping this girl off last other’s were in the truck. Maybe the family thought the girl would be safe with family in the car and this sleeze ball saw an opportunity to get a victim. He even Lied and said he had to go out to the woods to “use the restroom meaning “pee†This is a move of super predators when they are caught they claim they had to pee. A mans DNA(I am trying to be clean) comes out when they pee. They use it as a technicality to explain away the DNA at the scene of a crime. Well he just peed the dna was on his hands. It may be on the victims because he helped fasten the seat belt. I have heard tons of aweful excuses.
Last edited by SouthFloridaman on 6/10/18 9:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 358
6/10/18 10:54 am
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| Update (L) |
Carolyn Smith |
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SouthFloridaman |
| Pastoral covenant groups are like asking someone to pinky promise they won’t do something like this. Also stuff like this has been happening for years it was just easier to sweep things under the rug in the past. victims were less open to discuss what happened. The internet has really brought an open awareness to these issues. I am sorry folks but the hillbilly backwoods way of doing things is over. I also feel the back lash over this is more to do with folks having something to hide. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 358
6/13/18 11:55 am
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Carolyn Smith |
| SouthFloridaman wrote: | | Pastoral covenant groups are like asking someone to pinky promise they won’t do something like this. Also stuff like this has been happening for years it was just easier to sweep things under the rug in the past. victims were less open to discuss what happened. The internet has really brought an open awareness to these issues. I am sorry folks but the hillbilly backwoods way of doing things is over. I also feel the back lash over this is more to do with folks having something to hide. |
No, that's not the purpose of the Pastoral Covenant Groups. It is to give the pastors a means to have fellowship and accountability. A place for pastors to have someone to mentor and pastor them and talk with others who are facing similar trials and situations. Obviously, if someone has an issue this deep, they need more help than a PCG can give them.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5909
6/14/18 9:36 am
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SouthFloridaman |
| opened ended licenses don’t work. How do we add accountably. To quote OTCP most Churchs can’t tell a real doctorate from a fake I think at that point state needs to be that level of verification for local churches. Same goes for pastorial back ground checks. A pastor throws a ordained ministers license boom the local church thinks the guy is good since he has a license. I think background checks need to be linked to having your license as still active. It is protects the bride of Christ. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 358
6/15/18 3:22 pm
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| Annual background checks |
Randy Johnson |
are being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.
I would submit to one every year as a condition of keeping my credentials, however, I don't understand why some of them cost $100.00 (such as the one required for CAMS in Pennsylvania) when I could get one in Indiana to student teach from the state police for $10.00
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
6/27/18 7:05 pm
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| Re: Annual background checks |
Cojak |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | are being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.
I would submit to one every year as a condition of keeping my credentials, however, I don't understand why some of them cost $100.00 (such as the one required for CAMS in Pennsylvania) when I could get one in Indiana to student teach from the state police for $10.00 |
Very good point Randy. BTW good to see you name pop up a few times lately! 
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01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24275
6/27/18 10:14 pm
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| Re: Annual background checks |
Mat |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | are being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.
I would submit to one every year as a condition of keeping my credentials, however, I don't understand why some of them cost $100.00 (such as the one required for CAMS in Pennsylvania) when I could get one in Indiana to student teach from the state police for $10.00 |
In Arizona where I was pastor of a local church with a licensed Daycare/Pre-School, all staff (employee, volunteer and church) had to have a state "Level One Fingerprint Card" ID when around the Daycare/Preschool kids. The background check, that included searches in other states for any criminal activity in the past. You could not work be on the property in business hours (other than parents - who were generally the real danger to their children) without having these check. There were several people we were going to hire, but could not because of the background check failure, and/or failure of E-Verify and Drug Test. E-Verify was once and done, drug test was at hire and random, and the state monitored the fingerprint card, so we only had to pay for a new one about every three years (?).
I wonder how many minister would fail one of those test? I know some who would fail E-Verify, and their are most likely some who could not get a fingerprint card. They could not work with children in that state, but they could be a licensed minister and pastor a church full of kids.
Cheap background test may not include doing out of state searches and may not be conducted by state law enforcement.
Mat
PS Each employee file was incomplete if we did not have a copy of the various background test (card) and results in them. We would fined by the state and the employee could not work until the file was complete. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
6/28/18 6:22 am
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| Re: Annual background checks |
SouthFloridaman |
| Mat wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | are being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.
I would submit to one every year as a condition of keeping my credentials, however, I don't understand why some of them cost $100.00 (such as the one required for CAMS in Pennsylvania) when I could get one in Indiana to student teach from the state police for $10.00 |
In Arizona where I was pastor of a local church with a licensed Daycare/Pre-School, all staff (employee, volunteer and church) had to have a state "Level One Fingerprint Card" ID when around the Daycare/Preschool kids. The background check, that included searches in other states for any criminal activity in the past. You could not work be on the property in business hours (other than parents - who were generally the real danger to their children) without having these check. There were several people we were going to hire, but could not because of the background check failure, and/or failure of E-Verify and Drug Test. E-Verify was once and done, drug test was at hire and random, and the state monitored the fingerprint card, so we only had to pay for a new one about every three years (?).
I wonder how many minister would fail one of those test? I know some who would fail E-Verify, and their are most likely some who could not get a fingerprint card. They could not work with children in that state, but they could be a licensed minister and pastor a church full of kids.
Cheap background test may not include doing out of state searches and may not be conducted by state law enforcement.
Mat
PS Each employee file was incomplete if we did not have a copy of the various background test (card) and results in them. We would fined by the state and the employee could not work until the file was complete. |
Matt you are correct not all background check are created equal. For some reason people still believe a local law enforcement is the best place to go for a background checks. Local Law enforcement is actually one of the worst places to go. Not all states communicate with each other. I know Carolinas at one time did not. So that law enforcement backgroundcheck was only good for that state and those states that comply with there version of the national registry. Sad to believe some states at one time did not have registrys. I heard a story one time of a local church that thought local law-enforcement background checks were enough. They had a super predator relocate his entire family to their state because the state did not comply with the national registry. The guy was trying to run from his past. Needless to say this guy fell through the cracks of a law enforcement background check. It wasn’t until a year later when a member of that church was moving to the same neighborhood that the person showed up. This guy even went as far as using different aliases. There are even websites with guides on how And where to move so you don’t have to go through your states registration process.
That’s why I recommend people to research the company who provides background checks. The company I use is called CHECKR they are the same company used by 100’s of Fortune 500 companies colleges and schools. Some states use checkr for there schools. That said I know checkr checks every state plus you can buy higher ranked background checks if you need more depth to the report. Now the reason I am a planning center online fan is because it easily integrates with checker. planning center online is one of the easiest ways to automate the background check process so that you do not have volunteers fall through the cracks. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 358
6/28/18 11:54 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| That graphic is absolutely horrific! I had no idea that so many states only require these sick pervs to register for 10 or 15 years after they are convicted. I’m going to see what I can do to make my state (New Mexico) change the law to require that they register for life. That is the only reasonable option for the safety of all. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
6/29/18 1:37 am
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| There are those ... |
Mat |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | That graphic is absolutely horrific! I had no idea that so many states only require these sick pervs to register for 10 or 15 years after they are convicted. I’m going to see what I can do to make my state (New Mexico) change the law to require that they register for life. That is the only reasonable option for the safety of all. |
There are those who advocate for sex offenders to be given an opportunity to have a "restart" on life after prison and probation is over. Sadly, many of these advocates are from the "faith community" and the "restart" in life will not be anywhere near they community or their children's schools. Crimes involving sex are very different than most other crimes, and just as you would not hire a recovering alcoholic to work in a liquor store, society must be very careful how/where they oversee sexual predators. Now those who believe that all sin, including sexual crimes, are the same are mistaken. Grace can save a sexual predator, but grace does not preclude wisdom and it is only after the resurrection and glorification of the believer that salvation is complete. Under stress and temptation, even the most "sanctified" believer may fall back to the sin which dominated their life (the dog to his vomit). Put that in your theological pipe and smoke it.
As to the former pastor this thread began with, there may have been no reported sexual predator activity. Even with background checks this crime could/did take place. Which leads to policy issues, like not being alone with children or women.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
6/29/18 8:16 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Not all sex offenders are child predators or rapists/molesters. A lot are, yes, and they should stay on the list for life.
But in other cases, a 17 year-old is required to register because he had sex with his 16 year-old girlfriend that's a month younger than he is. Honestly, in cases like that registration shouldn't happen at all, but if it does those are the cases for which registration occurs for 5 or 10 years. Child predators or rapists tend to get life registrations by default, I believe, even if the state allows shorter periods. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
6/29/18 9:04 am
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