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Nature Boy Florida |
Phil,
What do you mean by your "lead team/dream team"?
What function do those folks perform at your church?
How large a group is that?
I'm pretty backwards, I guess - in that I don't know what that is.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
4/11/18 11:33 am
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philunderwood |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Phil,
What do you mean by your "lead team/dream team"?
What function do those folks perform at your church?
How large a group is that?
I'm pretty backwards, I guess - in that I don't know what that is. |
Lead Team - Anyone who carries oversight over an area of ministry.
Dream Team - volunteers for areas of ministry.
_________________
Live an epiK life!
Discover More...
http://www.refocusing.org
A Mission in Formation
www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
4/11/18 11:43 am
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skinnybishop |
| philunderwood wrote: | | skinnybishop wrote: | | philunderwood wrote: | | Quote: | | That is about what I expected. But I wanted to hear it from you, rather than assume what you meant. Thank you. |
Eddie,
Well, glad that I fulfilled expectations. Deliverance from the world system is our aim and we are energized by the batting average that indicates freedom, change and anointing for service.
How would your three bottom line expectations for yourself and your ministry differ? |
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| Quote: | | Based solely on the terms "freedom", "change" and, "anointing for service"? My expectations are pretty much the same. No one would argue any of those things. |
Great, we are on same page. How do you lead this? Give us a story or two, as I was able to, of the end result being freedom, change and anointing for service. Thank you for the affirmation. |
I wouldn't say we are on the same page. At all. I also wouldn't mistake my previous post as an affirmation. I do believe that ministry should include freedom, change, and anointing for service, based on Luke 4:18. But that's likely where our pages differ.
People receive freedom, change, and anointing for service through a relationship with God....not a relationship with me.
Freedom comes from truth. (John 8:32)
Transformation comes by submission to Christ (Romans 12:1, 2 C 5:17)
Anointing for service comes by the will of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:11, Luke 4:18)
I try to lead people to a sincere relationship with Christ. Change of heart is at the core of such a relationship. When the heart changes, behavior changes. That doesn't mean one never fails....I think that means failure in this life is the exception, rather than the rule. I don't believe that one dead to sin should live in sin.
I cannot lead someone to freedom. I cannot lead someone to change. I cannot lead someone into an anointing for service.
I can point people to Christ and am confident He can produce what I cannot.
You wanted a war story, I assume to prove my way is as effective as yours. Here goes:
A young couple had fallen away from the church. One day, 2 years ago, the husband called me, completely at random. He asked if he and his wife could meet me, that day. I agreed.
The wife had an affair, and he was hooked on porn. Both were broken, ashamed, and desperate. I asked if they sincerely wanted to reconcile and move forward. They emphatically said yes. We prayed, talked about boundaries, accountability, and necessary behavioral changes. Sunday morning, they formally rededicated their lives to Christ, before the whole church.
Today he is an usher and member of our security team.
She helps in our children's department.
I don't think it was my leadership....It was God's love.
_________________
Eddie Wiggins |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1055
4/11/18 12:48 pm
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philunderwood |
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UncleJD |
nevermind, I read your post better. Thanks for sharing
Last edited by UncleJD on 4/12/18 11:07 am; edited 2 times in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
4/11/18 2:59 pm
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Chicago27 |
| The rainbow was God’s creation in the heavens. A beautiful array of colors. Don’t let your distorted vision of His creation ruin God’s beauty. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 253
4/11/18 7:29 pm
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Tom Sterbens |
| philunderwood wrote: | I do not camp out here to answer your questions. This is the second time I have logged in since my original post in another thread. I just was able to catch up on the community's enlightenment regarding my theology, ascertained by my silence rather than my words.
Here's my deal.... I have three persons on my lead team/dream team that have lived a homosexual lifestyle. My message, if anything, is about identity not behavior. It would be difficult to put it all in a little green box but I will highlight....
1. I teach them about world identity and Kingdom identity.
2. I go back to before the foundation of the world and talk about what might have been in the mind of God about their unique contribution to God's eternal mission. I invite them to dream of perfection/wholeness.
3. We continually talk about this, living into your Kingdom identity and not the world's identity.
4. We talk about using Kingdom language when describing God's vision of their life and purpose.
5. Yes, I say, as Paul, all things are lawful but not all is profitable. We talk about what this means in terms of fulfilling God's call.
6. We talk about love for God compels us to make choices that are in line with His will and desire for us eternally not just temporally. We are not giving behavorial guidelines that, as Paul says to the Colossians, are of no use against the sinful nature.
7. We have intentional, ongoing dialogue, about the vision for the their life that God has given them and what the Holy Spirit is leading them to be.
8. One of these three sat in my home on Monday afternoon and talked about how amazed they were at the freedom their soul had. How that their own mother had badgered her about not being who she 'really was' and how she had been able to share her Kingdom identity paradigm that does NOT include a vision of humanity that is not supported by God's design. This young lady has gone for more than 20 months without same sex interaction.
9. Another one told me, week before last, that he is seeing females as attractive now and, while that is not gone for men, it is a new day in his life and it has been over two years since any sexual contact with a man.
10. The amazing thing is that I have NEVER told them they couldn't do anything. I have never shamed. I have never used leverage against them and I have afforded them opportunity based on God's desire for their life. The third is now one-year celibate and we have a lunch this week to continue the journey.
So, no we do not reject based on behavior. We invite based on design and the desire of the Father. I father these young adults (ages 24, 30 and 27) and include them in my life away from church. So, there, somebody get the stake and somebody get the fire, you have enough evidence to convict me of whatever it is you desire. Nothing is hidden.
Selah.
P.S. And this is not just about sexuality. I have three ex-cons, one meth dealer and a certified psychotic that is going through similar transformation. We just installed one of the ex-cons as the pastor of our second campus. All is well. I have a cookout tonight with five guys, two of which just got out of rehab and jail in the last two weeks. The process begins again.
I heard a statement, 25 years ago, that has stuck in my soul like tattoo to skin... The Greatest Deterrent to Sin (Falling short of God's glory) is Vision. I believe that. I am NOT going to dwell on the negative, ever. I am going to paint the God vision and see what happens. The parable of the sower tells me I will not always be successful but this is better than preaching against stuff. |
Good stuff!
Great testimony!
Thanks for sharing that... |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
4/12/18 6:42 am
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Change Agent |
| Great post Phil. I'm taking a small group course at a church on "The Daniel Dilemmia" by Chris Hodges. It is about standing firm and loving well. This is a great example of standing firm and loving well. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
4/12/18 10:35 am
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philunderwood |
The Holy Spirit is so much better than me at revealing, convicting and wooing toward God's best.
Bless you all!
_________________
Live an epiK life!
Discover More...
http://www.refocusing.org
A Mission in Formation
www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
4/13/18 10:39 pm
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| Phil....or Tom.....can you steer me towards some |
caseyleejones |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | philunderwood wrote: | I do not camp out here to answer your questions. This is the second time I have logged in since my original post in another thread. I just was able to catch up on the community's enlightenment regarding my theology, ascertained by my silence rather than my words.
Here's my deal.... I have three persons on my lead team/dream team that have lived a homosexual lifestyle. My message, if anything, is about identity not behavior. It would be difficult to put it all in a little green box but I will highlight....
1. I teach them about world identity and Kingdom identity.
2. I go back to before the foundation of the world and talk about what might have been in the mind of God about their unique contribution to God's eternal mission. I invite them to dream of perfection/wholeness.
3. We continually talk about this, living into your Kingdom identity and not the world's identity.
4. We talk about using Kingdom language when describing God's vision of their life and purpose.
5. Yes, I say, as Paul, all things are lawful but not all is profitable. We talk about what this means in terms of fulfilling God's call.
6. We talk about love for God compels us to make choices that are in line with His will and desire for us eternally not just temporally. We are not giving behavorial guidelines that, as Paul says to the Colossians, are of no use against the sinful nature.
7. We have intentional, ongoing dialogue, about the vision for the their life that God has given them and what the Holy Spirit is leading them to be.
8. One of these three sat in my home on Monday afternoon and talked about how amazed they were at the freedom their soul had. How that their own mother had badgered her about not being who she 'really was' and how she had been able to share her Kingdom identity paradigm that does NOT include a vision of humanity that is not supported by God's design. This young lady has gone for more than 20 months without same sex interaction.
9. Another one told me, week before last, that he is seeing females as attractive now and, while that is not gone for men, it is a new day in his life and it has been over two years since any sexual contact with a man.
10. The amazing thing is that I have NEVER told them they couldn't do anything. I have never shamed. I have never used leverage against them and I have afforded them opportunity based on God's desire for their life. The third is now one-year celibate and we have a lunch this week to continue the journey.
So, no we do not reject based on behavior. We invite based on design and the desire of the Father. I father these young adults (ages 24, 30 and 27) and include them in my life away from church. So, there, somebody get the stake and somebody get the fire, you have enough evidence to convict me of whatever it is you desire. Nothing is hidden.
Selah.
P.S. And this is not just about sexuality. I have three ex-cons, one meth dealer and a certified psychotic that is going through similar transformation. We just installed one of the ex-cons as the pastor of our second campus. All is well. I have a cookout tonight with five guys, two of which just got out of rehab and jail in the last two weeks. The process begins again.
I heard a statement, 25 years ago, that has stuck in my soul like tattoo to skin... The Greatest Deterrent to Sin (Falling short of God's glory) is Vision. I believe that. I am NOT going to dwell on the negative, ever. I am going to paint the God vision and see what happens. The parable of the sower tells me I will not always be successful but this is better than preaching against stuff. |
Good stuff!
Great testimony!
Thanks for sharing that... |
resources regarding #1-3. Super appreciate it. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11794
4/17/18 8:58 pm
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| Re: Phil....or Tom.....can you steer me towards some |
philunderwood |
| caseyleejones wrote: | | Tom Sterbens wrote: | | philunderwood wrote: | I do not camp out here to answer your questions. This is the second time I have logged in since my original post in another thread. I just was able to catch up on the community's enlightenment regarding my theology, ascertained by my silence rather than my words.
Here's my deal.... I have three persons on my lead team/dream team that have lived a homosexual lifestyle. My message, if anything, is about identity not behavior. It would be difficult to put it all in a little green box but I will highlight....
1. I teach them about world identity and Kingdom identity.
2. I go back to before the foundation of the world and talk about what might have been in the mind of God about their unique contribution to God's eternal mission. I invite them to dream of perfection/wholeness.
3. We continually talk about this, living into your Kingdom identity and not the world's identity.
4. We talk about using Kingdom language when describing God's vision of their life and purpose.
5. Yes, I say, as Paul, all things are lawful but not all is profitable. We talk about what this means in terms of fulfilling God's call.
6. We talk about love for God compels us to make choices that are in line with His will and desire for us eternally not just temporally. We are not giving behavorial guidelines that, as Paul says to the Colossians, are of no use against the sinful nature.
7. We have intentional, ongoing dialogue, about the vision for the their life that God has given them and what the Holy Spirit is leading them to be.
8. One of these three sat in my home on Monday afternoon and talked about how amazed they were at the freedom their soul had. How that their own mother had badgered her about not being who she 'really was' and how she had been able to share her Kingdom identity paradigm that does NOT include a vision of humanity that is not supported by God's design. This young lady has gone for more than 20 months without same sex interaction.
9. Another one told me, week before last, that he is seeing females as attractive now and, while that is not gone for men, it is a new day in his life and it has been over two years since any sexual contact with a man.
10. The amazing thing is that I have NEVER told them they couldn't do anything. I have never shamed. I have never used leverage against them and I have afforded them opportunity based on God's desire for their life. The third is now one-year celibate and we have a lunch this week to continue the journey.
So, no we do not reject based on behavior. We invite based on design and the desire of the Father. I father these young adults (ages 24, 30 and 27) and include them in my life away from church. So, there, somebody get the stake and somebody get the fire, you have enough evidence to convict me of whatever it is you desire. Nothing is hidden.
Selah.
P.S. And this is not just about sexuality. I have three ex-cons, one meth dealer and a certified psychotic that is going through similar transformation. We just installed one of the ex-cons as the pastor of our second campus. All is well. I have a cookout tonight with five guys, two of which just got out of rehab and jail in the last two weeks. The process begins again.
I heard a statement, 25 years ago, that has stuck in my soul like tattoo to skin... The Greatest Deterrent to Sin (Falling short of God's glory) is Vision. I believe that. I am NOT going to dwell on the negative, ever. I am going to paint the God vision and see what happens. The parable of the sower tells me I will not always be successful but this is better than preaching against stuff. |
Good stuff!
Great testimony!
Thanks for sharing that... |
resources regarding #1-3. Super appreciate it. |
Sorry, just saw this Casey. I do not have a 'book' we use, but I will share two decent resources that I have found feed thought on this...
Single, Gay, Christian by Gregory Coles (following is a Christianity Today article on Coles)
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/october-web-only/you-cant-just-tell-us-what-to-believe.html?share=
Redeeming Sex by Deb Hirsch (Deb has come down and spent time with us and was a great resource to one of the young ladies I mentioned in my original post.)
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rebeccaflorencemiller/2015/05/redeeming-sex-by-debra-hirsch/
On the Kingdom identity issues, you MUST have a grace paradigm. An earlier poster used the following term, which is TRUTH...
| Quote: | Freedom comes from truth. (John 8:32)
Transformation comes by submission to Christ (Romans 12:1, 2 C 5:17)
Anointing for service comes by the will of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:11, Luke 4:18) |
However, you can deliver that message in a very legalistic, black/white, straightforward package or you can deliver it in an very relational human/divine interaction.
Freedom does come from TRUTH, but not from information, rules and to-do lists. It comes from Jesus, who is truth.
Transformation does come from submission, but not in totalitarian adherence to behavioral codes.
Anointing does come from the will of the Holy Spirit but that is a predetermined will not a conditional occasion.
I will tell anyone who is identified with the world and not Jesus that the ONLY way forward is to go backward... What were we created for? Who created us? How did he make provision for us to return to our intended glory?
We were created to extend the Kingdom of God with the personality of God (love and authority of position as sons/daughters.)
The Father/Son/Holy Spirit created us IN THEIR IMAGE to extend the DNA of God to the earth in the midst of chaos.
How do we live that out? KNOW God (F, S, HS) through Jesus and be what you see, feel, experience, taste from Him. It is rooted in identity.
I will say, look at the Bible and pray, 'Mirror, mirror, in the Book, won't you tell me how I look?' and be what is revealed.
I do NOT deal with behaviors and compliance to codes. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, but I do not leave it to Him. I partner with Him to reveal the vision of what we are designed to be - and teach how to be that in the process of discipleship. I have NEVER, EVER met a disciple, formed and reflective, that was not like the Lord. No one has to tell them that sin diminishes glory - it is just evident and they will choose glory over sin every time when they are developed in this way. It may be rocky and slow but it is always effective. People who are taught compliance are a different breed and I find that their is always a shadow of the dark lurking under their compliant exteriors. That is why you have angry, mean, cheating, discontent Christians in some places.
Okay, my time is up. I'll come back next week and see what's going on with all the heroes of faith that camp out here. For this weekend, I wish you well, I pray for your effectiveness and I celebrate your freedom.
_________________
Live an epiK life!
Discover More...
http://www.refocusing.org
A Mission in Formation
www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
4/20/18 8:36 am
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| Re: Phil....or Tom.....can you steer me towards some |
Nature Boy Florida |
| philunderwood wrote: | That is why you have angry, mean, cheating, discontent Christians in some places.
|
So your method eliminates that at your church?
If so - you are indeed superior to all of us. Congrats.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
4/20/18 9:26 am
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| Re: Phil....or Tom.....can you steer me towards some |
philunderwood |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | philunderwood wrote: | That is why you have angry, mean, cheating, discontent Christians in some places.
|
So your method eliminates that at your church?
If so - you are indeed superior to all of us. Congrats. |
Heck, no. In any church you have people with varying degrees of desire, investment and commitment. I am saying that discipleship centered on Jesus is more effective than discipleship centered in compliance to codes.
THANK YOU for allowing clarification. I have one amazing good friend in my church that is 79 and as cantankerous as they come. He 'likes' Jesus but not the Father. He is not going to be discipled in a new way. He's content with dissatisfaction and I love him like the Father loves him.
In the maturity journey we map out for people we try to help people know where they are so they can know where they can go, according to Scripture...
Unbeliever > Skeptic > Seeker > Believer > Follower > Disciple > Discipler
There are people 'stuck' and there are people progressing just like where you live and love.
_________________
Live an epiK life!
Discover More...
http://www.refocusing.org
A Mission in Formation
www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
4/20/18 11:36 am
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| Re: Phil....or Tom.....can you steer me towards some |
caseyleejones |
| philunderwood wrote: | | caseyleejones wrote: | | Tom Sterbens wrote: | | philunderwood wrote: | I do not camp out here to answer your questions. This is the second time I have logged in since my original post in another thread. I just was able to catch up on the community's enlightenment regarding my theology, ascertained by my silence rather than my words.
Here's my deal.... I have three persons on my lead team/dream team that have lived a homosexual lifestyle. My message, if anything, is about identity not behavior. It would be difficult to put it all in a little green box but I will highlight....
1. I teach them about world identity and Kingdom identity.
2. I go back to before the foundation of the world and talk about what might have been in the mind of God about their unique contribution to God's eternal mission. I invite them to dream of perfection/wholeness.
3. We continually talk about this, living into your Kingdom identity and not the world's identity.
4. We talk about using Kingdom language when describing God's vision of their life and purpose.
5. Yes, I say, as Paul, all things are lawful but not all is profitable. We talk about what this means in terms of fulfilling God's call.
6. We talk about love for God compels us to make choices that are in line with His will and desire for us eternally not just temporally. We are not giving behavorial guidelines that, as Paul says to the Colossians, are of no use against the sinful nature.
7. We have intentional, ongoing dialogue, about the vision for the their life that God has given them and what the Holy Spirit is leading them to be.
8. One of these three sat in my home on Monday afternoon and talked about how amazed they were at the freedom their soul had. How that their own mother had badgered her about not being who she 'really was' and how she had been able to share her Kingdom identity paradigm that does NOT include a vision of humanity that is not supported by God's design. This young lady has gone for more than 20 months without same sex interaction.
9. Another one told me, week before last, that he is seeing females as attractive now and, while that is not gone for men, it is a new day in his life and it has been over two years since any sexual contact with a man.
10. The amazing thing is that I have NEVER told them they couldn't do anything. I have never shamed. I have never used leverage against them and I have afforded them opportunity based on God's desire for their life. The third is now one-year celibate and we have a lunch this week to continue the journey.
So, no we do not reject based on behavior. We invite based on design and the desire of the Father. I father these young adults (ages 24, 30 and 27) and include them in my life away from church. So, there, somebody get the stake and somebody get the fire, you have enough evidence to convict me of whatever it is you desire. Nothing is hidden.
Selah.
P.S. And this is not just about sexuality. I have three ex-cons, one meth dealer and a certified psychotic that is going through similar transformation. We just installed one of the ex-cons as the pastor of our second campus. All is well. I have a cookout tonight with five guys, two of which just got out of rehab and jail in the last two weeks. The process begins again.
I heard a statement, 25 years ago, that has stuck in my soul like tattoo to skin... The Greatest Deterrent to Sin (Falling short of God's glory) is Vision. I believe that. I am NOT going to dwell on the negative, ever. I am going to paint the God vision and see what happens. The parable of the sower tells me I will not always be successful but this is better than preaching against stuff. |
Good stuff!
Great testimony!
Thanks for sharing that... |
resources regarding #1-3. Super appreciate it. |
Sorry, just saw this Casey. I do not have a 'book' we use, but I will share two decent resources that I have found feed thought on this...
Single, Gay, Christian by Gregory Coles (following is a Christianity Today article on Coles)
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/october-web-only/you-cant-just-tell-us-what-to-believe.html?share=
Redeeming Sex by Deb Hirsch (Deb has come down and spent time with us and was a great resource to one of the young ladies I mentioned in my original post.)
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rebeccaflorencemiller/2015/05/redeeming-sex-by-debra-hirsch/
On the Kingdom identity issues, you MUST have a grace paradigm. An earlier poster used the following term, which is TRUTH...
| Quote: | Freedom comes from truth. (John 8:32)
Transformation comes by submission to Christ (Romans 12:1, 2 C 5:17)
Anointing for service comes by the will of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:11, Luke 4:18) |
However, you can deliver that message in a very legalistic, black/white, straightforward package or you can deliver it in an very relational human/divine interaction.
Freedom does come from TRUTH, but not from information, rules and to-do lists. It comes from Jesus, who is truth.
Transformation does come from submission, but not in totalitarian adherence to behavioral codes.
Anointing does come from the will of the Holy Spirit but that is a predetermined will not a conditional occasion.
I will tell anyone who is identified with the world and not Jesus that the ONLY way forward is to go backward... What were we created for? Who created us? How did he make provision for us to return to our intended glory?
We were created to extend the Kingdom of God with the personality of God (love and authority of position as sons/daughters.)
The Father/Son/Holy Spirit created us IN THEIR IMAGE to extend the DNA of God to the earth in the midst of chaos.
How do we live that out? KNOW God (F, S, HS) through Jesus and be what you see, feel, experience, taste from Him. It is rooted in identity.
I will say, look at the Bible and pray, 'Mirror, mirror, in the Book, won't you tell me how I look?' and be what is revealed.
I do NOT deal with behaviors and compliance to codes. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, but I do not leave it to Him. I partner with Him to reveal the vision of what we are designed to be - and teach how to be that in the process of discipleship. I have NEVER, EVER met a disciple, formed and reflective, that was not like the Lord. No one has to tell them that sin diminishes glory - it is just evident and they will choose glory over sin every time when they are developed in this way. It may be rocky and slow but it is always effective. People who are taught compliance are a different breed and I find that their is always a shadow of the dark lurking under their compliant exteriors. That is why you have angry, mean, cheating, discontent Christians in some places.
Okay, my time is up. I'll come back next week and see what's going on with all the heroes of faith that camp out here. For this weekend, I wish you well, I pray for your effectiveness and I celebrate your freedom. |
Thanks Phil. I have heard Tom reference this here and there in his sermons but I know just enough to be dangerous. But I like it. Thanks for taking the time to explain. Good stuff for sure! |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11794
4/20/18 9:39 pm
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