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Are we supposed to love the Jews more?
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Post Resident Skeptic
Isa 58:12 wrote:
I knew I should have never got into this lol, I have a LOT to say on this, but I'm not here for this. resident, you can believe whatever you want, I'm out of this conversation I want to just talk about the Bible. I'm sorry resident, I haven't seen you on my Sabbath thread, would like to hear what you got to say


Amazing. Why are you afraid to confront this?

Here's a couple of more for you to consider.

Have you ever read some of the things General George S. Patton said about the Jews after being among them after WW2?

How about General U.S. Grant's military orders concerning Jews?

I'm not taking sides . I'm simply asking you a question. I'm curious. I'm not afraid to question any sacred-cow.

Were these famous Generals just mean ol' anti-Semites? Or did they observe and experience things that helped mold their opinions?

Are we required to lay aside all objectivity when it comes to Jews?
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Post The Jews and 70 AD Resident Skeptic
I knew that when I brought this up, that the false charges against me would spring forth. But I do not care. Since God knows the truth about me, I will not fear man.

I'd like us to consider the events of 70. A.D. There is no doubt this was the judgment of God. It was not the first time God had judged his people after sending prophets to warn them. Israel would be taken captive, and then God would restore them. In all of these judgments, innocent people suffered. Children died from the sword and famine, just as children died at the hands of Joshua's forces when they took the Promised Land.

I have two thoughts I'd like to be explored here.....

1) Do you feel pity for the children who died at the hand of Joshua, and at the hand of those who invaded and dispersed Israel (including 70 AD), even though in all cases it was the hand of God?

2) Concerning 70 A.D. and the leveling of Jerusalem by the Romans (under God's direction), have the Jews repented of what brought this judgment on them in the first place? If not, then does this judgment follow them now? If this judgment does follow them now, does this explain them being kicked out of so many countries? If they have not repented of what brought judgment on them in 70 A.D., then should we be so angry and shocked when things happen like the Holocaust? What's the difference between the Holocaust and the other many judgments by God against Israel that occurred in the past where innocent people died?

If one will reflectively and objectively read these questions, it should nullify the knee-jerk "You're an anti-Semite" charges. I am honestly seeking answers here. I am 100% for the State of Israel, both geo-politically and biblically. I do not buy into all the hype about Israel persecuting Palestinians. There is no such thing as a Palestinian. I do not think the USA should be so joined-at-the- hip with the Jewish State. I believe in our Founders admonition to stay out of entangling alliances. But nor should we try to undermine Israel. I hope this clears the air, though I'm not holding my breath.

Input is desired and welcome!! Thank you.
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Post The Jews and 70 AD Mark Ledbetter
Writing just before the 20th-century, the man noted by many as the "father of Zionism," Theodore Herzl had the following explanation of why a Jewish homeland was needed:

Quote:
“The Jewish question still exists...wherever Jews live in perceptible numbers. Where it does not exist, it is carried by Jews in the course of their migrations. We naturally move to those places where we are not persecuted, and there our presence produces persecution. This is the case in every country, and will remain so, even in these highly civilized – for instance, France – until the Jewish question finds a solution on a political basis. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America...I think the Jewish question is no more a social than a religious one, notwithstanding that it sometimes takes these and other forms. It is a national question, which can only be solved by making it a political world-question to be discussed and settled by the civilized nations of the world in council...We have honestly endeavored everywhere to merge ourselves in the social life of surrounding communities and to preserve the faith of our fathers. We are not permitted to do so. In vain are we loyal patriots, our loyalty in some places running to extremes; in vain do we make the same sacrifices of life and property as our fellow-citizens; in vain do we strive to increase the fame of our native land in science and art, or her wealth by trade and commerce. In countries where we have lived for centuries we are still cried down as strangers, and often by those who ancestors were not yet domiciled in the land where Jews had already had experience of suffering...Oppression and persecution cannot exterminate us. No nation on
earth has survived such struggles and sufferings as we have gone through.”

I am concerned about your statements regarding the Holocaust, the epitome of atrocities committed against the Jews, because it seems somewhat calloused. Further, if the atrocities committed were fueled by Anti-Jewish rhetoric produced by the church which led to their persecution - including not only confiscation of property and physical torture, but death as well.

So this is what bothers me and I'll ask a question: Do you think it is God's intent to use illegitimate doctrine by the church to perpetrate persecution of the Jews (or any other people group)?

God's punishment of Israel was to be scattered throughout the nations until such a time they do repent and this is captured by Jesus' words in Matthew 23:39, "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord."

Persecution at the hands of the church has effectively transformed the Cross into a Sword.

Such persecution by the Church, in God's name, is contrary to the nature of the Church as Jesus defined and established.

The Holocaust is one of several infamous recorded events recording the cruelty of men. Not once but on several occasions the Church persecuted Jews and Arabs in God's name - a direct violation of the Command not to take God's name in vain - literally, carry His name in vain - that is do an evil thing in His name.

The African, the Asian, the Indian, the natives of the Americas, all suffered from imperialist, European ambitions and disregard for the value of life. Mankind, as the times before the flood also epitomize, can be excessively cruel.

Another note regarding Israel's scattering. It comes from the same word meaning sowing - God sowed the Jews around the world. Their traditions preserved them as a nation as they carried them with them, which incidentally was one of the purposes of the Law of Moses.

Central to the traditions they took with them was the Synagogue and as we review the Acts of the Apostles we see the God's hand in the sowing. Paul always looked up a synagogue, preached and taught their until they kicked him out, along with the Gentile and Jewish believers.

With every split synagogue there was a new church. I wonder how the nations would have been evangelized had God not sown the Jews throughout the earth?
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Post Re: The Jews and 70 AD Resident Skeptic
Mark Ledbetter wrote:
Writing just before the 20th-century, the man noted by many as the "father of Zionism," Theodore Herzl had the following explanation of why a Jewish homeland was needed:

Quote:
“The Jewish question still exists...wherever Jews live in perceptible numbers. Where it does not exist, it is carried by Jews in the course of their migrations. We naturally move to those places where we are not persecuted, and there our presence produces persecution. This is the case in every country, and will remain so, even in these highly civilized – for instance, France – until the Jewish question finds a solution on a political basis. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America...I think the Jewish question is no more a social than a religious one, notwithstanding that it sometimes takes these and other forms. It is a national question, which can only be solved by making it a political world-question to be discussed and settled by the civilized nations of the world in council...We have honestly endeavored everywhere to merge ourselves in the social life of surrounding communities and to preserve the faith of our fathers. We are not permitted to do so. In vain are we loyal patriots, our loyalty in some places running to extremes; in vain do we make the same sacrifices of life and property as our fellow-citizens; in vain do we strive to increase the fame of our native land in science and art, or her wealth by trade and commerce. In countries where we have lived for centuries we are still cried down as strangers, and often by those who ancestors were not yet domiciled in the land where Jews had already had experience of suffering...Oppression and persecution cannot exterminate us. No nation on
earth has survived such struggles and sufferings as we have gone through.”

I am concerned about your statements regarding the Holocaust, the epitome of atrocities committed against the Jews, because it seems somewhat calloused. Further, if the atrocities committed were fueled by Anti-Jewish rhetoric produced by the church which led to their persecution - including not only confiscation of property and physical torture, but death as well.

Understand my "callousness" is for argument's sake. But are we not callous , by your standard, towards Canaanite babies slaughtered by Joshua?

So this is what bothers me and I'll ask a question: Do you think it is God's intent to use illegitimate doctrine by the church to perpetrate persecution of the Jews (or any other people group)?

The true church never did. At the same time, are we just in condemning Luther for some of the things he said about Jews? Are we using today's moral standards to judge past peoples? Just a thought.

God's punishment of Israel was to be scattered throughout the nations until such a time they do repent and this is captured by Jesus' words in Matthew 23:39, "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord."

But after this 70 AD scattering, they were a blessing to those nations? When did they repent for what brought on the 70 AD judgment? Do you see my point?

Herzl was an incredible man. Sadly, few have heard of him. However, I think this quote above tells only part of the story. He could be very hard on his own people. But let's just take this quote above at face value. I believe it tells only part of the story. It's like the way some people treat snakes. They don't try to determine if the snake is poisonous or not. They kill first and identify later. I'm afraid this is historically what has happened to the Jews, and it is probably happening to Muslims now. Host nations of Jews in the past became concerned enough that they were not willing to distinguish between venomous and non-venomous snakes. They drove them ALL out. I think we lose our objectivity when we blanket-condemn these actions. Again, think about the comments made about Jews by General Patton in the couple of years after WW2 when he was among them in Europe. What made him change his mind? Are we fair just to write it off to "anti-Semitism"? At the bottom of this post is a link to and incredible video about Herzl.

Persecution at the hands of the church has effectively transformed the Cross into a Sword.

Such persecution by the Church, in God's name, is contrary to the nature of the Church as Jesus defined and established.

The Holocaust is one of several infamous recorded events recording the cruelty of men. Not once but on several occasions the Church persecuted Jews and Arabs in God's name - a direct violation of the Command not to take God's name in vain - literally, carry His name in vain - that is do an evil thing in His name.

I doubt born again Christians did so. European nationalist churches did all of that. and it was wrong. But check out what Ukrainian and Poland nationalists did to each other during WW2. They had their own war going on, all in the name of Christ. Instead of fighting Nazis and Soviets, they fought each other. Furthermore, why is that many Soviet republics greeted the Nazis as liberators (foolishly, I might add)? Why is it that often times after Soviet forces fled, and before German troops arrived, the people started rounding up Jews? Why? Because those loyal communists were over-represented by Jews who were instrumental in rounding up these ethnic peoples (Ukrainians, Bella-Russians, Baltic states citizens) and shipping them to Siberia under Stalin's orders, . This does NOT, NOT, NOT justify the murder of women and children. But a holocaust was already going on in the USSR and it seems Jews were over-represented among those carrying it out. The situation with the Jews in Europe was over-simplified in one way by Hitler, but it has been also over-simplified in another way by us. I encourage you to read Solzentsen. This was a more complicated situation than we care to admit. The communist agitators in Germany between the world wars were also over-represented by Jews. Sadly, Hitler did not fairly distinguish between communist Jews and those who had been loyal to Germany. There were some exceptions. There were Jews in the SS. But it still does not change Hitler's overall desire and madness. BTW, Hitler and Goebles did not start out as anti-Semites. Even Ernst Rome did not care for the anti-Semitism. Most of Hitler's allied nations did not agree with him and told him to butt out of their Jewish situation. But in the final analysis Mark, could this been a continuation of the 70 AD judgment? Are Jews innocent victims, or do they do something to insult their host countries? I lean toward the views that the majority of Jews suffer for the actions of the minority. But perhaps the majority is too silent in speaking out against the minority actions. We see this with Muslims.

The African, the Asian, the Indian, the natives of the Americas, all suffered from imperialist, European ambitions and disregard for the value of life. Mankind, as the times before the flood also epitomize, can be excessively cruel.

How about the inhabitants of Canaan? It's a fair point. Poles, Czechs and other Europeans also suffered from imperialism.

Another note regarding Israel's scattering. It comes from the same word meaning sowing - God sowed the Jews around the world. Their traditions preserved them as a nation as they carried them with them, which incidentally was one of the purposes of the Law of Moses.

And after 70 AD, what did these Apostate Jews have to sow? What was their seed? That sounds harsh, but did God sound any less harsh towards them? What was 70 AD about after all, to bless them? Again, please take the harsh tone with a grain of salt. Call it "reverse empathy", if you will. It's only for argument enhancement.

Central to the traditions they took with them was the Synagogue and as we review the Acts of the Apostles we see the God's hand in the sowing. Paul always looked up a synagogue, preached and taught their until they kicked him out, along with the Gentile and Jewish believers.

But this was before 70 AD. before they had "counted themselves unworthy of eternal life" and "lo, we turn to the Gentiles". That's the point. They rejected God and Christ. In 70 AD God's wrath obliterated their abominable system.

With every split synagogue there was a new church. I wonder how the nations would have been evangelized had God not sown the Jews throughout the earth?

Again, the Jews after 70 AD who were dispersed were no friends of Christianity. Prior to 70 AD, Jews also dispersed for their sin and rebellion. It was never God's wish to drive them from their land.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtmzRvLMQS8
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Post Re: The Jews and 70 AD Isa 58:12
Resident Skeptic wrote:
I knew that when I brought this up, that the false charges against me would spring forth. But I do not care. Since God knows the truth about me, I will not fear man.

YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FORGIVE THE BOLD LETTERS, I'M DOING THIS FROM MY PHONE I HAVE NO COLORS, but since you text me a fair p.m., I'm just going to answer this one thing I do not want to get bogged down on this

I'd like us to consider the events of 70. A.D. There is no doubt this was the judgment of God. It was not the first time God had judged his people after sending prophets to warn them. Israel would be taken captive, and then God would restore them. In all of these judgments, innocent people suffered. Children died from the sword and famine, just as children died at the hands of Joshua's forces when they took the Promised Land.

MY QUESTION TO YOU SKEPTIC, IS WHY DO YOU WANT TO JUDGE THE JEWS IN ALL THAT THEY DONE, what does have to do anything? This seems like you have an axe to grind about history. Because let's bring up church history and all that they've done & do wrong. & Let me tell you judgments coming to the church first 1Pet 4:17. I asked you that before and that must have slipped your mind when you were going picking my thread apart piece-by-piece you left that one out. & Let's not forget G-d told Joshua to kill everyone and taking the Promised Land, do you have an axe to grind against G-d? But instead of judging other people's mistakes, why don't you do the smart thing and learn from them, learn what not to do. If you know and saw the judgement of G-d come against the people of Y'SRAEL, G-ds people, that should tell you something, keep His Commandments. Because if you think that you're going to be raptured out of here when you stiff neckedly refuse to keep His Law's, you living in a dreamland

I have two thoughts I'd like to be explored here.....

1) Do you feel pity for the children who died at the hand of Joshua, and at the hand of those who invaded and dispersed Israel (including 70 AD), even though in all cases it was the hand of God?

JUDGE NOT AARON UNLESS YOU BE JUDGED.... Learn from the mistakes, see what they did and do the opposite

2) Concerning 70 A.D. and the leveling of Jerusalem by the Romans (under God's direction), have the Jews repented of what brought this judgment on them in the first place?

DOES THE BIBLE ANYWHERE SAY TO WORRY ABOUT THIS? G-D TO PUT A BLINDER OVER THEIR EYES TO ALL THE GENTILES COME IN, YOU SHOULD BE THANKING THEM, & praying for them....

If not, then does this judgment follow them now? If this judgment does follow them now, does this explain them being kicked out of so many countries?

G-D SCATTERED THEM.... AND JUST SO YOU KNOW AARON, ANOTHER HOLOCAUST IS COMING, WHAT YOU THINK'S GOING TO BRING THAT ON, THE JEWS? ridiculous... Boast not against the natural branches "Jews" less you "gentile" be cut off, & G-d re-graff's the natural branches back into the Olive Tree....

If they have not repented of what brought judgment on them in 70 A.D., then should we be so angry and shocked when things happen like the Holocaust? DON'T BE SHOCKED AARON WHEN ANOTHER ONE COMES & YOU'RE INVOLVED FOR YOUR DISOBEDIENCE TO G-D'S COMMANDS What's the difference between the Holocaust and the other many judgments by God against Israel that occurred in the past where innocent people died?

If one will reflectively and objectively read these questions, it should nullify the knee-jerk "You're an anti-Semite" charges. I am honestly seeking answers here. I am 100% for the State of Israel, both geo-politically and biblically. I do not buy into all the hype about Israel persecuting Palestinians. There is no such thing as a Palestinian.

YOU DON'T STAND WITH Y'SRAEL AARON, WITH THE STATEMENT YOU JUST MADE AFTER THAT, & YOU DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE JOINED AT THE HIP, STANDING WITH OUR JEWISH FAMILY WE'VE BEEN GRAFTED INTO you should have just continue with "BUT", which is the word of cancellation, I like the Jews, BUT.... How can you stand with someone, and not want to help them out? You're so denominationalised, you don't even know what family u are grafted into, or the Jewish Book you're reading... Ur grafted into a Jewish faith....

I do not think the USA should be so joined-at-the- hip with the Jewish State. I believe in our Founders admonition to stay out of entangling alliances. But nor should we try to undermine Israel. I hope this clears the air, though I'm not holding my breath.

Input is desired and welcome!! Thank you.


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Post Isa 58:12
It didn't dawn on me skeptic till now, Yom HaShoah, the day of the Holocaust remembrance was on the 11th of this month. Hear me, and hear me well please, we better remember what happened during the Holocaust and the steps that were taken and why the Holocaust happen, like I said you will see another Holocaust.

skeptic & everyone else, If you don't know what happened in the first Holocaust, you'll never know when the second one, a global Holocaust arrives and it'll be too late

And if you want to equate it to the disobedience to G-d & His Laws, remember that.....

If we forget history, we are we doomed to repeat it. G-d Bless everyone's understanding in this important remembrance Y'shua's Name amein
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Post Resident Skeptic
Isa 58:12 wrote:
It didn't dawn on me skeptic till now, Yom HaShoah, the day of the Holocaust remembrance was on the 11th of this month. Hear me, and hear me well please, we better remember what happened during the Holocaust and the steps that were taken and why the Holocaust happen, like I said you will see another Holocaust.

skeptic & everyone else, If you don't know what happened in the first Holocaust, you'll never know when the second one, a global Holocaust arrives and it'll be too late

And if you want to equate it to the disobedience to G-d & His Laws, remember that.....

If we forget history, we are we doomed to repeat it. G-d Bless everyone's understanding in this important remembrance Y'shua's Name amein


I doubt you have done enough research to be able to comment on any of this without first filtering it through your Judaizer lenses. Furthermore, I will not bother to discuss your ridiculous comments about my previous posts. You didn't actually answer anything I asked. All you did was make accusations, accusing me of being "against" something, when all I'm doing is trying to discuss a different angle. So I will now leave you to continue going about trying to establish your own righteousness, which is of the Law, instead of submitting to the righteousness of God/Christ, which is apart from the Law, and which you are ignorant of. Good day.
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Post Final Thoughts: Canaanites, Judgment of Nations & Israel's Favor Mark Ledbetter
The Canaanite Issue
You seem to want to champion the plight of the Canaanites and others living in Canaan, the ones God instructed Israel to dispossess.

Scriptures reveal God had an indictment against these nations, one that focused upon their inhumane treatment of their own sons and daughters in the name of pagan ritual. Israel was to become the instruments of retribution; unfortunately for Israel they did not obey God’s command to destroy them and thus later paving the way for their own apostasy. See the following passages: Deuteronomy 12:29-31; Deuteronomy 9:4-6; Leviticus 18:24-30; Deuteronomy 12:29-30.

Rather than try to rationalize God’s motives and His actions, I bow to the fact He is all-knowing and righteous in His ways. I will defer till another millennium to seek answers for this.

Israel and Sowing:
It is Israel was sowing but that God “sowed” the people, they were “scattered”

Jews and Early Christians
To read your words one may conclude you believe the atrocities perpetrated against Jews in God’s name by the Church is an instrument of God’s judgment. Do you believe Jesus would have us treat Jews as such?

Matthew 25 records a well-known and oft-cited parable Jesus used to illustrate The Judgment of Nations/Gentiles. While it is used to cite generally the responsibility for showing compassion upon others, the immediate context suggests a more specific conclusion:

Matthew 25:31-46
Quote:
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


The context of “these brothers of Mine” is reference to Jesus’ “kinsmen according to the flesh,” the people He was sent to first before they rejected Him. Yet, how the nations treat His “brothers,” “even the least of them” will be criteria for the Judgment of Nations/Gentil3s.

Consider also the words of Joel who record’s God’s message in this manner:

Joel 3:1-2
Quote:
“For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, 2I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they have divided up My land.”


I do not pretend to fully understand all the ramifications of God’s relationship with Israel. What I do know I find in Deuteronomy 7:7-8,

Quote:
“7The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers [The Patriarchs – Abraham, Isaac and Jacob], the Lord brought you out by a might hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

The oath God swore to the Patriarchs I refer to as “The Patriarch Formula,” one used by God on other occasions in order to preserve Abraham’s descendants, and this in accordance to the Covenant He swore to Abraham.

I cannot tolerate the humanistic values and attitudes influencing the Jewish secular community any more than I can tolerate its influences in the Cultural Church in the West.

Yet, I realize, God has preserved a nation that long ago would have assimilated had it not been for the die-hard traditionalists. They have come back from the brink of extermination solely because God has willed it to be so because He made a promise to Abraham and His ultimate plan is to save a Remnant who will embrace Jesus as their Messiah.

Until that day I will continue to pray for the Peace of Jerusalem even though such a prayer includes the prelude of another Holocaust, not only of Jews but of Christians as well. There is coming a day when persecution and martyrdom will bring us to ultimately be what Jesus began when He broke down the dividing wall and bring Jew and Gentile together under the Banner of Yeshua HaMashiach – Jesus the Christ.

Post Script: I have little regard for any assessment of General Patton, a man who by his own words years before WWII revealed his anti-Jewish sentiments. And when referring to the Jews liberated (Displaced Persons), he had them crowed into squalid conditions no better than they were before in the death camps, even placing SS prisoners of war and giving them authority to oversee the Jews, and ultimately describing the Jews as "animals." His thoughts reflect prejudice.

As far as Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, historians are divided if he was anti-Jewish or simple being brutally honest. The Bolshevik Revolution indeed included many Jews who sought to overthrow a tyrannical Czarist regime and deplorable living conditions of the people. The extent of their involvement and acts they may have committed may not be justifiable, but they were not alone in the uprising, only a part of those seeking what they believed to be a better life.
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