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 Is the ministry of an apostle biblical today? What of a prophet? Women in ministry? |
Dean Steenburgh |
We read where Paul & Peter were both apostles.
In 1 Cor. 15:9 Paul refers to himself as the 'least of the apostles' meaning there were several.
Sometimes I hear people say the office of the apostle ministry is no longer required or needed; some say it's not required even though it's in the 5 fold calling found in Eph. 4.
For that matter we're told that there are to be prophets.
Is there a cultural/societal/spiritual/religious/scriptural difference or definition that we preclude based on nuances of scripture rather than the germane understanding of biblical texts?
It seems some like to pick & choose what ministry should be conducted based on our lack of theological acceptance or maybe traditional teachings?
Honestly not trying to run on & on here but wondering if we have intimidated some from pursuing their calling based on ecclesiastical prejudices or by using the excuse, 'it didn't seem to fit our belief.'
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/17/18 10:58 pm
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| Re: Is the ministry of an apostle biblical today? What of a prophet? Women in ministry? |
Dave Dorsey |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | In 1 Cor. 15:9 Paul refers to himself as the 'least of the apostles' meaning there were several. |
In the verse before, Paul says he's the last of the apostles. I think it's a good discussion to have -- but it's probably a little more complicated than grabbing a couple proof texts and suggesting that anyone who disagrees wants to pick and choose what Scripture to believe.
I don't think 1 Cor 15:8 is a text clearly opposing modern-day apostles, but if you want to have a sincere discussion, maybe don't start by implying anyone who would disagree with you is picking and choosing what to believe and damaging the call of God in others. |
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Posts: 13654
3/18/18 7:03 am
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| Apostles |
cogcia |
| Don’t use the title, but I believe I have the calling. Visionary, Planter, Faith builder. The call is not better than a Prophet, Pastor, Teacher or Evangelist. Just more one seeing what others are not seeing in Ministry potential. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 122
3/18/18 7:34 am
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| Re: Is the ministry of an apostle biblical today? What of a prophet? Women in ministry? |
Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | In 1 Cor. 15:9 Paul refers to himself as the 'least of the apostles' meaning there were several. |
In the verse before, Paul says he's the last of the apostles. I think it's a good discussion to have -- but it's probably a little more complicated than grabbing a couple proof texts and suggesting that anyone who disagrees wants to pick and choose what Scripture to believe.
I don't think 1 Cor 15:8 is a text clearly opposing modern-day apostles, but if you want to have a sincere discussion, maybe don't start by implying anyone who would disagree with you is picking and choosing what to believe and damaging the call of God in others. |
The sincere discussion is attempted by this thread hence the question marks & suggestive texts rather than statements of opinion.
I have read the previous verses & don't see where he claims to be the 'last' apostle.
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/18/18 10:55 am
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| My 2 cents |
4thgeneration |
First of all, I don't see Paul declaring himself as the "last apostle" in 1 Corinthians 15:8. He does say that he is the last in his list of those who saw the post resurrected Jesus. He then follows by stating in verse 9 that, in his opinion, he is the least of the apostles. But I think its a stretch to connect the two as him saying he is the least and the last.
Second, if we presume to determine that the role of the Apostle is no longer needed/important, we bring into question Ephesians 4:11. To eliminate one office would then open the door to question the ongoing need of any or all. It also positions us in the same place as those who claim that tongues have ceased with the written word, and are therefore not for today.
I get that we have backed away from some titles because of the misuse and abuse that is prevalent. I think we would be better served to study such things out and have a clear biblical understanding. That would protect the church from the title chasers who seek to misuse scripture to define their desire for recognition. It would also make room in the church for all that God has set in place for the church.
Again, just my O. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1599
3/19/18 2:57 pm
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| Re: My 2 cents |
Dave Dorsey |
| 4thgeneration wrote: | | First of all, I don't see Paul declaring himself as the "last apostle" in 1 Corinthians 15:8. He does say that he is the last in his list of those who saw the post resurrected Jesus. He then follows by stating in verse 9 that, in his opinion, he is the least of the apostles. But I think its a stretch to connect the two as him saying he is the least and the last. |
I agree. My point in mentioning it was to say that proof texts can be stretched on either side, and to take issue with Dean's marginalization of the other side of this discussion on the basis of a couple of proof texts.
For the most part, this debate is an intramural discussion between Christians who all believe the Bible is their sole authority for faith and practice. If there were definitive, clear texts one way or another on this issue, it wouldn't be a debate among that group. |
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Posts: 13654
3/19/18 3:59 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
"Dean's marginalization" is not there to establish bias but to provoke a response.
You read emotion into the text on your own & it wasn't my intention to lean the debate one direction or another & I think you knew that.
As a traditional pentecostal in the CoG I know a lot of those in ministry have varying views of apostles & prophets in the church in terms of having a ministry position using said gift.
I would love to hear a few responses from some of the more traditional pentecostal ministers on the above topic.
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/19/18 7:09 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | it wasn't my intention to lean the debate one direction or another & I think you knew that. |
No, I don't think it was your intention at all. It seems clear you were hoping for a genuine discussion. So I'm trying to help ya out by pointing out that, intention or no, that's what ya did.  |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/20/18 4:28 am
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Dave Dorsey |
On topic -- what was/is the biblical purpose of the ministry of apostle?
Assuming apostles continue today -- is their ministry qualitatively different than the early ministry of the apostles?
We know that there is at least one significant qualitative difference, and that's that any apostle who ministers today has not been a physical witness to the resurrected Jesus. This was a distinguishing mark of the biblical apostles (Acts 1:22, 1 Cor 9:1, 1 Cor 15:7-8).
I would argue there is another significant qualitative difference -- the apostles were those who laid the foundation of the church (1 Cor 12:28, Eph 2:20). Note that they are not the foundation of the church -- that is Christ. But Paul is a wise master-builder who lays that foundation (1 Cor 3:10, Romans 15:20).
Apostles were likewise appointed by the Lord and able to authenticate that apostleship with obviously and undeniably miraculous signs (Luke 6:13, Acts 1:2, Acts 10:42, Romans 15:18-19, Gal 1:1, 2 Cor 12:12; Heb 2:3-4, etc.)
There are certainly "apostles" today who claim to have been appointed by the Lord, claim to be laying a new foundation of teaching, claim that their ministries have amazing signs and wonders authenticating that call, and even in some cases claim to have seen the resurrected Christ. But what they teach perverts the word of God, which proves they are false apostles. So as not to muddy the discussion, I will not appeal to their example of modern-day apostleship as an argument against it.
So what we can say for sure is that if apostles do exist today, that ministry must be qualitatively different than the ministry of Christ's apostles in Scripture. It can't be denied that that type of apostleship has not continued. But on the other hand, are there apostles of a different sort? A third of the world has never heard the name of Jesus. Are the precious few who go to those regions apostles? Are they laying the foundation in a place where it has never been laid? They certainly have not seen the resurrected Lord, but I think an argument can be made that this ministry is reflective of the "apostolos" of the New Testament.
But those preaching strange doctrines in a place where the foundation of Christ has already been laid, claiming the mantle of apostle as their authority to do so? Nope. Liars and deceivers (2 Cor 11:5, 2 Cor 11:13, Rev 2:2). |
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Posts: 13654
3/20/18 4:46 am
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | On topic -- what was/is the biblical purpose of the ministry of apostle?
Assuming apostles continue today -- is their ministry qualitatively different than the early ministry of the apostles?
We know that there is at least one significant qualitative difference, and that's that any apostle who ministers today has not been a physical witness to the resurrected Jesus. This was a distinguishing mark of the biblical apostles (Acts 1:22, 1 Cor 9:1, 1 Cor 15:7-8).
I would argue there is another significant qualitative difference -- the apostles were those who laid the foundation of the church (1 Cor 12:28, Eph 2:20). Note that they are not the foundation of the church -- that is Christ. But Paul is a wise master-builder who lays that foundation (1 Cor 3:10, Romans 15:20).
Apostles were likewise appointed by the Lord and able to authenticate that apostleship with obviously and undeniably miraculous signs (Luke 6:13, Acts 1:2, Acts 10:42, Romans 15:18-19, Gal 1:1, 2 Cor 12:12; Heb 2:3-4, etc.)
There are certainly "apostles" today who claim to have been appointed by the Lord, claim to be laying a new foundation of teaching, claim that their ministries have amazing signs and wonders authenticating that call, and even in some cases claim to have seen the resurrected Christ. But what they teach perverts the word of God, which proves they are false apostles. So as not to muddy the discussion, I will not appeal to their example of modern-day apostleship as an argument against it.
So what we can say for sure is that if apostles do exist today, that ministry must be qualitatively different than the ministry of Christ's apostles in Scripture. It can't be denied that that type of apostleship has not continued. But on the other hand, are there apostles of a different sort? A third of the world has never heard the name of Jesus. Are the precious few who go to those regions apostles? Are they laying the foundation in a place where it has never been laid? They certainly have not seen the resurrected Lord, but I think an argument can be made that this ministry is reflective of the "apostolos" of the New Testament.
But those preaching strange doctrines in a place where the foundation of Christ has already been laid, claiming the mantle of apostle as their authority to do so? Nope. Liars and deceivers (2 Cor 11:5, 2 Cor 11:13, Rev 2:2). |
If I use your opening line:
| Quote: | | We know that there is at least one significant qualitative difference, and that's that any apostle who ministers today has not been a physical witness to the resurrected Jesus. This was a distinguishing mark of the biblical apostles (Acts 1:22, 1 Cor 9:1, 1 Cor 15:7-8). |
What would we do with Eph. 4?
I have not read anywhere in scripture that there is to be a cancelling of the role of an apostle or a prophet.
I personally have never met someone who I believe was/is an apostle but I've never really met anybody who claims to be a bonafide prophet in the biblical sense either.
But that doesn't mean they don't exist.
I believe their office is a rare one.
I don't believe in self appointment.
I might be convinced that Ravi could operate in an apostle position but I know there are those who would disagree.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/20/18 8:38 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15565
3/20/18 10:28 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | If I use your opening line: ... What would we do with Eph. 4? |
Consider it within the whole context of Scripture. Specifically to this passage (and in line with the rest of what I said), we would understand the qualitative difference between the gifting of apostleship (being sent to be a missionary, church planter, etc.) and the office of apostle that existed at the foundation of the church and was held by people who had seen the resurrected Christ, were chosen by Him to lay the foundation of His church, and whose teaching could not be rejected or refused.
We'd also probably avoid the term "apostle" in general so as not to confuse those with these missionary giftings with folks like Peter Wagner, who claimed that a modern day apostle was a:
| Quote: | | Christian leader who is gifted, taught, and commissioned by God with the authority to establish the foundational government of the Church within an assigned sphere of ministry by hearing what the Spirit is saying to the churches and by setting things in order accordingly for the advancement of the Kingdom of God. |
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Posts: 13654
3/21/18 3:25 am
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