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Travis Johnson |
SouthFloridaman,
The effectiveness of the COG Planting Bank remains to be seen. We have to make it perform by having qualified people vetting planters so that we end up having highest success rate in our plants as possible. I could not agree more with you that any semblance of favoritism/personal considerations should be ruled out from awarding monies for plants. The consideration has to be based on the readiness and qualitification of the church planter and spouse. Our system has a blind spot in this area. It’s something that we’ve openly and proactively talked about and want to avoid. That posture will undermine our credibility and longevity of this initiative.
We will have some plants that don’t work out like we hoped. But, if we are going to spend money, it’s an incredibly wise Gospel investment to spend it starting new churches. We will celebrate the planters as innovators and pioneers across the board. Church Planting is hard work. And, we are designed to do this kind of work and invest in this kind of work.
Here are a few bullet points to add more to the discussion:
-there is an ARC/COG agreement somewhere else hat can be read. That detail is available. I can try to turn that up for you.
-all funds distributed from the COG Planting Bank are not exclusive to the ARC partnership. There are other partnerships and avenues: Church Multiplication Network, etc... It isn’t a one size fits all approach. With that said, ARC absolutely knows what they are doing.
-when a church applies for a loan, a church is required to guarantee that loan and a state office has to endorse it. Originally, the state office had to guarantee it. That requirement was removed. I think that removing that requirement made the loan fund more insecure. That was a healthy provision. It made us all think twice about who and what we are giving money to. And, since there will be people that will want to discredit efforts, we will want our sucess rate to be as high as possible so that the loan fund can maintain the moral support it deserves to keep trucking along. The rationale behind removing the state office guarantee is to increase state office participation. I can see that. But, I’d say the most important thing is the viability and health of the fund. That’s my opinion...think it’s a good one. That wasn’t everyone’s opinion. But, that’s a detail that will be fine in the wash. This fund is strong and one of the most powerful things the COG is doing. It isn’t perfect. But, it is very very good.
-funding levels vary. $50,000 is the maximum. We fund at lower levels away from the ARC model. I like the launch large model for a number of reasons. But, we fund other types of plants. The money comes from the COG, not ARC.
Anyway, that’s pretty wordy. But, it’s a great topic. And, we are doing some good work in this arena. We should pile in on this and pour more into establishing new field works every chance we get and make it better and better as we go.
Thanks again for the discussion. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/5/18 2:42 pm
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| Denomination |
cogcia |
| So in a denomination we are no longer the spiritual father, we are the spiritual banker? That model make sense for independent plants, but not COG plants that are going to be supporting the denomination for the rest of their life. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 122
3/7/18 9:08 am
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| Re: Denomination |
Travis Johnson |
| cogcia wrote: | | So in a denomination we are no longer the spiritual father, we are the spiritual banker? That model make sense for independent plants, but not COG plants that are going to be supporting the denomination for the rest of their life. |
That definitely wouldn’t work.
A problem we’ve had over the last couple decades is that we have not engaged ourselves as fathers and sons/mothers and daughters. We’ve postured as older brother and younger brother. We’ve competed with one another and lost a generation of leaders in the process.
We have to have relationship. It’s a must. We miss that too much. Truly. But, we are craving it. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/7/18 9:37 am
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| Sad |
cogcia |
| We give loyalty to fathers and mothers. We make payments to bankers. If our TOT is turning us into a business something has broken. We are following a model that breeds independents not loyalty. Maybe that is the goal I’m not sure. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 122
3/7/18 12:03 pm
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| Re: Sad |
Travis Johnson |
| cogcia wrote: | | We give loyalty to fathers and mothers. We make payments to bankers. If our TOT is turning us into a business something has broken. We are following a model that breeds independents not loyalty. Maybe that is the goal I’m not sure. |
I don’t believe that is the case.
Our sons and daughters want to start churches. We need to create a system to facilitate that well. If we don’t, they will not have a vehicle in our fellowship to walk in their calling. Our sons and daughters need to walk in their calling. If we don’t provide that vehicle, they will find it in some other arena...and they should for the sake of the Kingdom.
This bank provides that vehicle. And, it isn’t burdensome. It starts to the church plant on the launch day participating in tithing off of all income until it is paid back (which will benefit the next planter). Upon satisfaction of the loan, the church organizes automatically and begins sending in Tithe on the Tithe.
It’s a system that:
-funds church plants
-has church plants fund the next generation of church plants on Day
1 as they repay the no interest loan (which is guaranteed by a mother church)
-keeps our sons and daughters engaged in the COG instead of another organization.
If faithfully funded by the Executive Council and managed by the COG Church Planting Bank Board and developed by church planting coaches, the COG will have an opportunity to experience a very strong and vibrant future in North America where our pioneers are celebrated and resources. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/7/18 2:25 pm
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| TOT |
cogcia |
| Why make it a loan. Why not just support them and let them start the TOT. I just hate the loan concept. I like investinging in son’s and daughter’s. I hate that a loan looks like business not blessing. If I was a planter I would just do ARC and not have a TOT after the loan is paid. I my be old school but this is the reason I’m so upset that we are misappropriating funds by selling building to fund administration that should be going to church planting. We are stealing the seed and have been doing it for years. And now we are loaning and not supporting. Church plants are going to support the system for the rest of their life. So support plants and let their TOT go into church planting for the first 5 years. I just think the loan idea is destructive. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 122
3/7/18 2:56 pm
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| Re: TOT |
Travis Johnson |
| cogcia wrote: | | Why make it a loan. Why not just support them and let them start the TOT. I just hate the loan concept. I like investinging in son’s and daughter’s. I hate that a loan looks like business not blessing. If I was a planter I would just do ARC and not have a TOT after the loan is paid. I my be old school but this is the reason I’m so upset that we are misappropriating funds by selling building to fund administration that should be going to church planting. We are stealing the seed and have been doing it for years. And now we are loaning and not supporting. Church plants are going to support the system for the rest of their life. So support plants and let their TOT go into church planting for the first 5 years. I just think the loan idea is destructive. |
1. ARC is also a loan.
2. Your idea of the first five years of church plant TOT funding church planting is not a bad idea. It’s functionally very similar to the Planting Bank. Again though...great idea.
3. I agree with you. We are violating GA mandates when the state office sells properties and funds admin. That is a clear violation. But, it does happen. It should not. Its a practice that should and could be stopped. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/7/18 4:13 pm
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| ARC |
cogcia |
| I know ARC is a loan, but then you don’t do a TOT if you are independent. Yes That is why I feel they are great for independent plants that don’t have a denomination backing. I support ARC and what they do for planters. The COG copy of ARC is so dysfunctional from what planters are telling me. We are losing plants due to the dysfunction. They would be better served just doing ARC from what they are experiencing. If you talk to 3 different people asking questions you get 3 different answers. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 122
3/7/18 6:10 pm
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| Re: ARC |
Travis Johnson |
| cogcia wrote: | | I know ARC is a loan, but then you don’t do a TOT if you are independent. |
That seems like more of an argument towards being in a denomination vs. being autonomous and independent. Both are valid postures. Some of my closest friends have left the COG. There are a number of reasons for why that happens. There are people inside our fellowship that are not participating in the TOT like others. It’s good for us to talk about that sort of thing to judge our effectiveness as a fellowship. We should have those conversations as openly and non-defensive as possible.
Anyway, ARC has a cooperative percentage that is sent in by the local church like we do. It’s a smaller amount. But, it is there. Life Church in Oklahoma affiliated with ARC because of how effective that cooperative is.
There are good takeaways in that discussion. Having it doesn’t mean we are against our COG family. I love being a part of the COG. And, I want us to be as good as we can be...no need for us to circle the wagons. Let’s have the conversation, affirm one another, and grow. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/8/18 8:32 am
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| Travis |
cogcia |
| I really appreciate your comments. I love what ARC is doing. I am just heart broken that our dysfunctional copy of ARC is killing our sons. Hoping it turns around before we lose more. The model might work if we were trained at international level and state/regional before we started it. If state administration had any grasp of what we are doing would be a benefit, but it is evident Training is learn as you go. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 122
3/8/18 9:18 am
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| Re: Travis |
Travis Johnson |
Thanks for the kind words.
| cogcia wrote: | | I really appreciate your comments. I love what ARC is doing. I am just heart broken that our dysfunctional copy of ARC is killing our sons. Hoping it turns around before we lose more. The model might work if we were trained at international level and state/regional before we started it. If state administration had any grasp of what we are doing would be a benefit, but it is evident Training is learn as you go. |
Who has it killed? I don’t see it.
Can training and process be better? Absolutely. But, that is why we have our current Bank and process. We have it because it is a very, very strong improvement over where we were. Light years ahead. And, it has the potential to get much better, more effective and more straight forward.
That fund will be dead when we fund planters on a political basis as opposed to merit. And, it will be endangered if we fail to recruit, empower and retain our very best church planting practitioners on that Bank Board.
I’d probably win the prize for the guy (or at least come close) who has kicked up the most dust about church planting in the COG in the past decade. This isnt the place to do it. We’ve got action and traction. We need to pour gas on the fire and make the fire better. This is a really good thing we’ve got going on right now. Let’s make it better. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/8/18 10:00 am
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| Re: ARC |
Tom Sterbens |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | cogcia wrote: | | I know ARC is a loan, but then you don’t do a TOT if you are independent. |
That seems like more of an argument towards being in a denomination vs. being autonomous and independent. Both are valid postures. Some of my closest friends have left the COG. There are a number of reasons for why that happens. There are people inside our fellowship that are not participating in the TOT like others. It’s good for us to talk about that sort of thing to judge our effectiveness as a fellowship. We should have those conversations as openly and non-defensive as possible.
Anyway, ARC has a cooperative percentage that is sent in by the local church like we do. It’s a smaller amount. But, it is there. Life Church in Oklahoma affiliated with ARC because of how effective that cooperative is.
There are good takeaways in that discussion. Having it doesn’t mean we are against our COG family. I love being a part of the COG. And, I want us to be as good as we can be...no need for us to circle the wagons. Let’s have the conversation, affirm one another, and grow. |
Travis,
Many people on this forum are aware of the dialog in/with the COG you have sought to advance for well over a decade - much of that effort has taken place here. But some are not aware. It is a conversation for the soul of an organization. I am not aware of another person who who has consistently pursued and pressed for that ongoing, often awkward conversation. You have done it with integrity, always with a clear view to the objective of the conversation: Objective assessment of who we are as a tribe and why we are here.
I did not write what I wrote above because I desire to offer fluffy words or somehow be a Travis fan-boy.
I am writing this because the typical evolution of a conversation such as this will devolve into a, "Yeah right, Travis is just offering 'company-speak' because now he is a part of the Council of 18 and thus a member of the 'good ole boy's club'..."
Travis, you started this conversation from the fringe and waded through the craziness of having the tribe you love seek to squash and silence your voice in every explicit and implicit fashion almost imaginable.
Officials that called and threatened...
Officials offered other "incentives"to cease and desist...
People were "assigned" to lead anonymous assaults on this forum...
"Committees" were sent to intimidate...
Friends that were once friends alienated you on the floor of the General Assembly...
I could go on...
I rejoice in the shift of conversation that has happened organizationally.
It seems there are brothers who, more or less, share a common heart.
So now, here you are, well over a decade later, on the very forum from where you launched much of the nascent conversation that has now become open dialog throughout the COG.
My point in referencing all of this is this:
I do think you have spent your breath and voice well through the years - and only you know the points at which I've challenged you.
So I will challenge you once again: The voice and breath you have spent well in the past may now be wasted in a forum such as this where there will always be cowardly voices of anonymity lobbing potshots born more of personal and private agenda than anything objectively measurable. To that end I offer the wisdom of Elsa, "Let it go..."
To those on the other side of the conversation:
Man-up, pray-up, step-up and step out of the shadows and engage the conversation with integrity and righteousness. If however you have no interest in the summons to man-up, pray-up and step-up...then please just shut-up, until some modicum of the integrity you challenge as not being present other's voice may find any measurable expression of being present in yours. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
3/8/18 10:11 am
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| Re: ARC |
Travis Johnson |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | To that end I offer the wisdom of Elsa, "Let it go..." |
Ha.
As a dad of three in the era of Elsa and Frozen, I’m not a fan. At the end of the day, it’s a needed discussion. And, it doesn’t feel personal. It keeps us informed (that’s half the battle) and it keeps the COG Planting Bank honest and on point. That’s a must. If it isn’t effective, it doesn’t deserve to exist.
Let’s make it as strong as we can.
Some other initiatives, I’d love to see is an independent entity within the COG that can be a holding vehicle for dying churches who voluntarily chose to close and liquidate and reinvest in church planting. Stadia is one such similar vehicle being used by outside of the COG. It is very effective.
And, a strong focus on renewal/revitalization/relaunching existing churches. I don’t think money needs to be poured into that because the existing facility is an asset that can be leveraged. That’s a huge head start and honestly, it is the best church planting opportunity in the COG.
When I’ve had people ask me how to plant in the COG, one of the first things I encourage them to do is to find a town they love and can envision yourself serving and see if they can’t get appointed to a church there (a congregation of 15 or 20 people is perfect). Then, get a job and build:rebuild/relaunch that church. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
3/8/18 10:42 am
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Dean Steenburgh |
Travis Johnson
| Quote: | Some other initiatives, I’d love to see is an independent entity within the COG that can be a holding vehicle for dying churches who voluntarily chose to close and liquidate and reinvest in church planting. Stadia is one such similar vehicle being used by outside of the COG. It is very effective.
And, a strong focus on renewal/revitalization/relaunching existing churches. I don’t think money needs to be poured into that because the existing facility is an asset that can be leveraged. That’s a huge head start and honestly, it is the best church planting opportunity in the COG.
When I’ve had people ask me how to plant in the COG, one of the first things I encourage them to do is to find a town they love and can envision yourself serving and see if they can’t get appointed to a church there (a congregation of 15 or 20 people is perfect). Then, get a job and build:rebuild/relaunch that church. |
I've always had a soft spot for the dilapidating/dying churches.
Often wonder, what caused the decline or why is the place in such dis-repair?
Like Tom, I too remember that day when on the other side of the General Council I heard this young voice of a new O.B. challenge the decision of the chair.
I'm almost 59 & I've been credentialed for 39 years this year - in all these years I've never heard that call to order. I've heard the PB call us to order but this was a challenge from the floor to call the PB to account for his own decisions. I heard the typically bored preacher all around me asking, 'what just happened?'
It brought me to the edge of my seat!
Tami & I had only recently came back to the CoG to pastor again & I was not expecting anybody to lift the plug & then listen to the sound of a draining swamp.
It was refreshing to say the least! (no disrespect to any of our leadership intended here).
It was def an awesome turning point & God was in the middle of it.
Suddenly Actscelerate was enemy #1 & anybody who associated with it was deemed, 'one of those guys.'
Too funny looking back & remembering the comments about how this was the beginning stages of a major split & so on.
Fortunately, I was given a lengthy convo with a member of the EC who thought the whole thing was wonderful & timely.
With that in mind, I don't know about Stadia but would love to know more.
Keep in mind that a simple, run down little chapel sitting on an acre in California can be worth a tidy sum depending on it's location. It might be in the NorCal bay area & be worth millions or it could be in the high desert & be worth a few hundred thousand but it's all prime property worth investing into so that we don't lose more churches.
My uncle & grand parents, including great grandparents were all church builders & they planted several in this state that are still open. I have a personal family investment/heritage at stake.
Problem sometimes is this, we can't get people to come west to plant or re-plant a church because it's ...out west. Apparently the perfect weather disagrees with some people.
Many of our needy churches have been paid off for years & simply need a church planter to come by & show some love. (just like what Ben says & does regarding houses on the TV show, Home Town)
I like this part from above: | Quote: | | " ...one of the first things I encourage them to do is to find a town they love and can envision yourself serving ..." |
The TV show "Home Town" showcases the quaint little town of Laurel, Mississippi.
Ben & Erin (Christ followers) constantly use the phrase about 'loving the older homes' to the point where they are single handedly rebuilding & re-branding the little community.
The way they show off the little town has tempted me & I've never spent more than a night in Mississippi. Seriously, the down payment on an average home in CA. pays cash for a nice place in Laurel ...got my attention real quick.
Wouldn't it be great if we could see the same contagious enthusiasm become a passion for our own tired little buildings that have served as awesome lighthouses for souls over the years?
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/9/18 3:23 pm
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| Great to know things are working out |
cogcia |
My frastation comes from losing a plant due to no one in Cleveland being able to answer questions. I saw this man get 3 different answers none of which was correct. The state had one understanding that was not close to reality. He finally just gave up and went independent and is doing great. I hope the church planting department has figured it out. I do understand major change always comes with glitches. I’m glad we are trying. I hate losing men with good talent and calling.
[/u] |
Friendly Face
Posts: 122
3/9/18 4:07 pm
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SouthFloridaman |
| Thank you for responding Travis. I feel you have made a good faith effort to answer questions. I respect that. I miss your voice in Florida. I think a good question to ask next is what are we doing as a denomination to make us a national organization rather than a regional one focused in the south east. I I think if we allow successful churches a chance to model growth we would see more growth. One thing that saddens me is the thought that everything has to be in Cleveland. I think we need to push for National pastor training events in large cities like Atlanta and Dallas. It would increase participation Some may say why Atlanta. Atlanta is the largest airport in the world anyone can fly there rather cheaply and quick the same goes for Dallas. I could see Mt Paran in Atlanta being a major pastor conference training site. Doing that would increase pastoral participation and take away the distance factor. Training can’t occur at assembly it is a business meeting same goes with campmeeting although to a lesser extent. Plus Orlando may not have the same ease of access as Atlanta or Dallas. We need to have training events and business events separate. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 358
3/16/18 12:57 am
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