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Grave sucking
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Post Grave sucking brotherjames
I went to Billy Graham's grave Saturday while I was in Charlotte and stood in awe of his legacy. While I was standing there (didn't actually lay on his tombstone), i prayed for an anointing similar to his. I have preached before 10's of thousands, he before millions. I said, I want more Lord. Does that make me a grave sucker Dave Dorsey and OTCP? If so, consider me a sucker of graves.

I have stood at the grave of Stephen Jeffries on a hilltop in Wales and prayed for the gift of healing like he had and more. Does that make me a grave sucker? If so, color me a grave sucker.

I preached in the church in Wakefield, UK where Wigglesworth died and stood in the very spot he breathed his last breath (it's now the Youth Pastors office) and asked for an anointing like Smith had. Does that make me a grave sucker? If so, fine.

You guys mock a man of God like Bill Johnson for promoting grave sucking as if it is a weird thing when he said no such thing. You take out if context his mere desire to be more like the men who have gone before us. If Elisha could ask for a double portion of Elijah's mantle, why should it be thought strange for any man who is hungry for more of God to reach the nations to do something similar at the grave of a past General of God?

You guys amaze me.
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3/12/18 8:04 am


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Post Re: Grave sucking Mat
brotherjames wrote:
I went to Billy Graham's grave Saturday while I was in Charlotte and stood in awe of his legacy. While I was standing there (didn't actually lay on his tombstone), i prayed for an anointing similar to his. I have preached before 10's of thousands, he before millions. I said, I want more Lord. Does that make me a grave sucker Dave Dorsey and OTCP? If so, consider me a sucker of graves.

I have stood at the grave of Stephen Jeffries on a hilltop in Wales and prayed for the gift of healing like he had and more. Does that make me a grave sucker? If so, color me a grave sucker.

I preached in the church in Wakefield, UK where Wigglesworth died and stood in the very spot he breathed his last breath (it's now the Youth Pastors office) and asked for an anointing like Smith had. Does that make me a grave sucker? If so, fine.


You guys mock a man of God like Bill Johnson for promoting grave sucking as if it is a weird thing when he said no such thing. You take out if context his mere desire to be more like the men who have gone before us. If Elisha could ask for a double portion of Elijah's mantle, why should it be thought strange for any man who is hungry for more of God to reach the nations to do something similar at the grave of a past General of God?

You guys amaze me.


Maybe its the word "sucking." A better work would be "pilgrimage." Standing at the grave and praying to God for anointing is much different from what is reported as "laying on the someones grave" and "drawing (sucking) in" their latent (if their is such a thing) anointing.

Visiting shires is a tradition that spans millennia in the Christian Church. The question is, even with the new vernacular, is this a practice found in the New Testament Church? Or is this just superstition if carried to the extreme?

At least the Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Anglican traditions have better words to describe the practice.

Mat

PS I wonder how family members of the deceased ministers feel about people laying on the graves of their loved ones?
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3/12/18 8:22 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
brotherjames, it's kind of hard to have a discussion with you because you bring so much anger to the table, but I'll give it a shot.

A couple of quick introductory notes:

To my knowledge, Bill Johnson has not promoted grave sucking. Kris Vallotton claims it is an "inside joke" at Bethel[1], but like you, also incorrectly exegetes a descriptive text about Elijah and Elisha and a unique thing God did in their lives, and interprets it as a prescriptive text for the church.

The issue initially became a controversy because of photos posted by Bill's wife Beni on social media:





There are also videos of BSSM students laying on graves and talking about soaking up the anointing from those graves. The error of these students does not implicate BSSM, Bethel, or their leaders, although if students if your school are doing such things, I'd propose it's evidence that you're erring somewhere.

The issue is more properly raised because of a statement in Johnson's book The Physics of Heaven:

“There are anointings, mantles, revelations and mysteries that have lain unclaimed, literally where they were left, because the generation that walked in them never passed them on. I believe it’s possible for us to recover realms of anointing, realms of insight, realms of God that have been untended for decades simply by choosing to reclaim them and perpetuate them for future generations.” (Davis, 2012)

This theology is so weird and unbiblical that I am hoping I do not even have to address it. But if for some reason you are able to agree with this statement, let me know and we can discuss it further.


Now to your question:

Um, no, I don't consider you a grave sucker or soaker because you visited or paid your respects at a grave, or that you pray for or desire to reach the lost as great men have God have done. What a strange thing to ask.

The bigger issue here is that the entire thrust of your post is based on the false assertion that "grave soaking" is merely about paying respects. Sorry, but you don't get to redefine what something is before you argue against those condemning it. The refutation of Johnson and Bethel here concerns the teaching of "anointings, mantles, revelations and mysteries that have lain unclaimed, literally where they were left" -- not people merely paying respects at a grave stone. Given this teaching, it is clear why Bethel students who accept it as sound doctrine would want to make videos of themselves laying on graves to soak up anointings that may have been abandoned there.


Now a couple of questions for you:

Did you lay on on Billy Graham's grave? If not, why not?

Do you affirm Bill Johnson's statements about a believer's ability to claim abandoned anointings? If so, what biblical text teaches this doctrine?


References

1. https://www.facebook.com/kvministries/posts/10152893202998741


Edit: Typos


Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 3/12/18 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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3/12/18 8:28 am


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
BJ, what you describe ain't grave suckin/soakin.

I've been in funerals/gravesides of wonderful men a God an all, an prayed at God would give me a similar love/compassion/anointing/zeal/etc... Ats a whole different ballgame than these folk what goes to the grave for the purpose of an "Elisha bones" impartation (cf. Catholic relics). Soakin/Suckin/Breathin in anointing from dead bones is about as biblical as angel feathers.
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3/12/18 10:43 am


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Post I just checked back to ... Mat
I just checked back to see the responses from this mornings post and scrolled past the pictures again - if she is not a family member, what she is doing strikes me as very disrespectful. If this practice is predicated on Old Testament scriptures, I understood that the Jewish thinking was that graves, and graveyards (cemeteries) were "unclean" and were best avoided.

Mat
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3/12/18 12:18 pm


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Post UncleJD
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3/12/18 3:38 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Dave Dorsey wrote:

The issue is more properly raised because of a statement in Johnson's book The Physics of Heaven:

“There are anointings, mantles, revelations and mysteries that have lain unclaimed, literally where they were left, because the generation that walked in them never passed them on. I believe it’s possible for us to recover realms of anointing, realms of insight, realms of God that have been untended for decades simply by choosing to reclaim them and perpetuate them for future generations.” (Davis, 2012)

This theology is so weird and unbiblical that I am hoping I do not even have to address it.


I think I'm gonna go to Gaza an soak up Samson's anointin. I seen a few Philistines I wanna whoop up on.
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Post 4thgeneration
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Dave Dorsey wrote:

The issue is more properly raised because of a statement in Johnson's book The Physics of Heaven:

“There are anointings, mantles, revelations and mysteries that have lain unclaimed, literally where they were left, because the generation that walked in them never passed them on. I believe it’s possible for us to recover realms of anointing, realms of insight, realms of God that have been untended for decades simply by choosing to reclaim them and perpetuate them for future generations.” (Davis, 2012)

This theology is so weird and unbiblical that I am hoping I do not even have to address it.


I think I'm gonna go to Gaza an soak up Samson's anointin. I seen a few Philistines I wanna whoop up on.


Now you know that you'd have to grow your hair out in the Nazarite way. And Bound for Beulah would be preaching at you mercilessly until you got it cut back to a holiness length! All I'm saying is count the cost.... lol
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3/20/18 10:11 am


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Post Mat
4thgeneration wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Dave Dorsey wrote:

The issue is more properly raised because of a statement in Johnson's book The Physics of Heaven:

“There are anointings, mantles, revelations and mysteries that have lain unclaimed, literally where they were left, because the generation that walked in them never passed them on. I believe it’s possible for us to recover realms of anointing, realms of insight, realms of God that have been untended for decades simply by choosing to reclaim them and perpetuate them for future generations.” (Davis, 2012)

This theology is so weird and unbiblical that I am hoping I do not even have to address it.


I think I'm gonna go to Gaza an soak up Samson's anointin. I seen a few Philistines I wanna whoop up on.


Now you know that you'd have to grow your hair out in the Nazarite way. And Bound for Beulah would be preaching at you mercilessly until you got it cut back to a holiness length! All I'm saying is count the cost.... lol


Worst of all, he would have to give up his fruit of the vine. I wonder if Nazarites could drink beer and whiskey. OTCP can keep going down to Harzard if that's the case.

Mat
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3/20/18 10:37 am


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Post Nature Boy Florida
What would you get if you laid on Hugh Hefner's grave?

Don't the "spirits" of the dark side join up with people?

I think you could make the case for "evil spirits joining with you" from scripture much easier than getting an "anointing" from someone who is dead.
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Post Quiet Wyatt
All this ‘grave-sucking” nonsense is, is just warmed over reliquism. Catholics have been doing it for centuries. So incredibly absurd. The seraphim around God’s throne say, “The whole earth is filled with His glory!”

For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. 20Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21to Him be the GLORY in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
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3/20/18 12:58 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
[quote="Quiet Wyatt"]All this ‘grave-sucking” nonsense [\quote]



This is exactly what it is.........NONSENSE.

An they base it on the dead Israelite who was throwed on Elishas bones an come back to life. If at story applies to us today so does everthing else in the Old Testament. So, lets commence:

1. Stopping the sun fer a few hours.

2. Stonin preachers who git it wrong (cf, the preachers who confirmed Todd Bentleys apostleship)

3. Lay naked fer a while like Ezekiel (oops, wait, they already doin at in skinny jeans)


Nope, what needs to happen is fer two she bears (cf. Elisha) to come out an maul the mockin preachers.
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3/20/18 1:48 pm


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Post Re: Grave sucking Cojak
Mat wrote:
brotherjames wrote:
I went to Billy Graham's grave Saturday while I was in Charlotte and stood in awe of his legacy. While I was standing there (didn't actually lay on his tombstone), i prayed for an anointing similar to his. I have preached before 10's of thousands, he before millions. I said, I want more Lord. Does that make me a grave sucker Dave Dorsey and OTCP? If so, consider me a sucker of graves.

I have stood at the grave of Stephen Jeffries on a hilltop in Wales and prayed for the gift of healing like he had and more. Does that make me a grave sucker? If so, color me a grave sucker.

I preached in the church in Wakefield, UK where Wigglesworth died and stood in the very spot he breathed his last breath (it's now the Youth Pastors office) and asked for an anointing like Smith had. Does that make me a grave sucker? If so, fine.


You guys mock a man of God like Bill Johnson for promoting grave sucking as if it is a weird thing when he said no such thing. You take out if context his mere desire to be more like the men who have gone before us. If Elisha could ask for a double portion of Elijah's mantle, why should it be thought strange for any man who is hungry for more of God to reach the nations to do something similar at the grave of a past General of God?

You guys amaze me.


Maybe its the word "sucking." A better work would be "pilgrimage." Standing at the grave and praying to God for anointing is much different from what is reported as "laying on the someones grave" and "drawing (sucking) in" their latent (if their is such a thing) anointing.

Visiting shires is a tradition that spans millennia in the Christian Church. The question is, even with the new vernacular, is this a practice found in the New Testament Church? Or is this just superstition if carried to the extreme?

At least the Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Anglican traditions have better words to describe the practice.

Mat

PS I wonder how family members of the deceased ministers feel about people laying on the graves of their loved ones?


I like this comment, makes much sense! Thumb Up
I do not like the term 'grave sucking'. Surely that is not the term originally used to describe this 'crazy' assertion of soaking up an anointing etc. But if such a thing is real NBF has a point about 'evil spirits also. Never considered that angle. I sure get an education here on Acts. Thanks. Cool
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3/20/18 5:07 pm


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Post Cojak
Seems to me if this works we would have a lot of WORLD changing folks running around.

Sorta like all those folks in the hospital just waiting for that person who has the GIFT of laying on of hands to healing.

Sorta like all those 'poor' folk who plant a seed in someone else's garden (GIVING TO GET) and NEVER get to harvest, cause the person they sent the seed to planted it in his/her own garden.

I do wish we had more ministers with the gift of presenting Jesus simply and plain. And that with the Earnest desire to see folk saved just because Jesus said so. Sorta like Billy Graham Yeah, I do miss him, he was one of a kind.
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Post Re: Grave sucking Dean Steenburgh
Is this thread the reason why brotherjames was banned? I sure hope not!!!


brotherjames wrote:
I went to Billy Graham's grave Saturday while I was in Charlotte and stood in awe of his legacy. While I was standing there (didn't actually lay on his tombstone), i prayed for an anointing similar to his. I have preached before 10's of thousands, he before millions. I said, I want more Lord. Does that make me a grave sucker Dave Dorsey and OTCP? If so, consider me a sucker of graves.

I have stood at the grave of Stephen Jeffries on a hilltop in Wales and prayed for the gift of healing like he had and more. Does that make me a grave sucker? If so, color me a grave sucker.

I preached in the church in Wakefield, UK where Wigglesworth died and stood in the very spot he breathed his last breath (it's now the Youth Pastors office) and asked for an anointing like Smith had. Does that make me a grave sucker? If so, fine.

You guys mock a man of God like Bill Johnson for promoting grave sucking as if it is a weird thing when he said no such thing. You take out if context his mere desire to be more like the men who have gone before us. If Elisha could ask for a double portion of Elijah's mantle, why should it be thought strange for any man who is hungry for more of God to reach the nations to do something similar at the grave of a past General of God?

You guys amaze me.

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Post Re: Grave sucking Dave Dorsey
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Is this thread the reason why brotherjames was banned? I sure hope not!!!

Nope.

brotherjames posted in another thread that he was leaving the forum for good.
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3/20/18 7:57 pm


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Post Re: Grave sucking Dean Steenburgh
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Is this thread the reason why brotherjames was banned? I sure hope not!!!

Nope.

brotherjames posted in another thread that he was leaving the forum for good.


Yes he did say that but did you have to ban him before he left? Maybe he was just upset at the moment & said those words out of frustration.
You do have a way of frustrating people Dave Shocked
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3/20/18 8:21 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
That wasn’t the only thing he said in the post, nor was it why he was banned.

That said, we often treat bans as temporary cooldowns. If you’re in contact with him and he does want to come back, have him email us about it.
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3/20/18 8:23 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
Dave Dorsey wrote:
That wasn’t the only thing he said in the post, nor was it why he was banned.

That said, we often treat bans as temporary cooldowns. If you’re in contact with him and he does want to come back, have him email us about it.


Why not just reach out to him?
I saw what he wrote & it sure didn't seem worth being banned over - I think it was more of a personal thing
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3/20/18 8:29 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
He knows where to reach us if he wants to talk about the post and talk about getting reinstated. He’s welcome to do so as far as I am concerned. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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3/20/18 8:32 pm


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