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Bethel Church and some practices.....disturbing....
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Post Bethel Church and some practices.....disturbing.... caseyleejones
Some things they embrace are


1) Destiny Cards...alternatives to tarot cards. They claim they are prophetic but not predicting the future.

2) Angel Boards as opposed to ouiji boards. The HS will lead you through those.

3) Grave sucking(soaking) ...soaking the anointing from the dead. Some actually lay on the grave.

4) My MIL contacted my wife asking about their belief system. One of the Johnsons said on TV that "the HS is a genie in the bottle and works like magic and he is blue in color"

I will let you google the information. Put aside the gold dust and angel feathers which is old news.
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1/21/18 10:22 pm


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Post Re: Bethel Church and some practices.....disturbing.... FLRon
caseyleejones wrote:
Some things they embrace are


1) Destiny Cards...alternatives to tarot cards. They claim they are prophetic but not predicting the future.

2) Angel Boards as opposed to ouiji boards. The HS will lead you through those.

3) Grave sucking(soaking) ...soaking the anointing from the dead. Some actually lay on the grave.

4) My MIL contacted my wife asking about their belief system. One of the Johnsons said on TV that "the HS is a genie in the bottle and works like magic and he is blue in color"

I will let you google the information. Put aside the gold dust and angel feathers which is old news.


And yet for all of this, and this list is by no means complete, there is no shortage of attendees at either their conferences or services. They even have their fans here on Actscelerate.
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1/21/18 10:45 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
When you look at the teachings and practices of Bethel church, it makes you wonder what on earth would need to happen for a modern-day Pentecostal to say, "Yup, that's a false sign and a false wonder. Jesus warned us about this. I need to see that I'm not deceived."

To the inevitable Bethel defenders in this thread, I would ask, to whom today (specific names and ministries) can you apply Matt 24:4-5, 24:22-24, 2 Tim 4:3-4, 2 Pet 2:1-3? To whom today can you apply Deut 13:1-5?

Understanding that Scripture's warnings are not against fringe groups or obvious cults or false religions but against outwardly/seemingly Christian groups that are leading "many" astray -- what would an outwardly/seemingly Christian church today have to do to meet this classification for you? Are there any that do?
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1/22/18 8:05 am


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Post bradfreeman
Dave Dorsey wrote:
When you look at the teachings and practices of Bethel church, it makes you wonder what on earth would need to happen for a modern-day Pentecostal to say, "Yup, that's a false sign and a false wonder. Jesus warned us about this. I need to see that I'm not deceived."

To the inevitable Bethel defenders in this thread, I would ask, to whom today (specific names and ministries) can you apply Matt 24:4-5, 24:22-24, 2 Tim 4:3-4, 2 Pet 2:1-3? To whom today can you apply Deut 13:1-5?

Understanding that Scripture's warnings are not against fringe groups or obvious cults or false religions but against outwardly/seemingly Christian groups that are leading "many" astray -- what would an outwardly/seemingly Christian church today have to do to meet this classification for you? Are there any that do?


Jim Jones
David Koresh

I'm not a Bethel defender, but I don't know any outwardly/seemingly Christian churches who say "let us go after other Gods" or whose Pastors say "I am the Christ."

What will Bethel do next? Draw lots to pick an apostle?
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1/22/18 8:32 am


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Post There is a reason Bethel Mark Ledbetter
later became known as Beth-aven, a house of deception, evil, inquiry, and idolatry.
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Post Re: Bethel Church and some practices.....disturbing.... Old Time Country Preacher
FLRon wrote:
caseyleejones wrote:
Some things they embrace are


1) Destiny Cards...alternatives to tarot cards. They claim they are prophetic but not predicting the future.

2) Angel Boards as opposed to ouiji boards. The HS will lead you through those.

3) Grave sucking(soaking) ...soaking the anointing from the dead. Some actually lay on the grave.

4) My MIL contacted my wife asking about their belief system. One of the Johnsons said on TV that "the HS is a genie in the bottle and works like magic and he is blue in color"

I will let you google the information. Put aside the gold dust and angel feathers which is old news.


And yet for all of this, and this list is by no means complete, there is no shortage of attendees at either their conferences or services. They even have their fans here on Actscelerate.


Easy answer on this one FLRon. They is never a shortage of cereal saints: Fruit, Nuts & Flakes.
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1/22/18 1:56 pm


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Post cogvegan
Is this for real? Is this church independent? So bizarre! Member
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2/18/18 10:37 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
cogvegan wrote:
Is this for real? Is this church independent? So bizarre!

They were originally a part of the Assemblies of God, but withdrew in 2005. Bill Johnson said it was "not a reaction to conflict but a response to a call... we feel called to create a network that helps other networks thrive — to be one of many ongoing catalysts in this continuing revival. Our call feels unique enough theologically and practically from the call on the Assemblies of God that this change is appropriate."

Their theology and call are different, that's for sure. (2 Corinthians 11:4)
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2/19/18 12:55 am


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Post This thread is beyond repulsive brotherjames
Bill Johnson's theology is rooted in the AG (5th generation). The things some of you are accusing him of are out of context and misunderstood. Is Bethel pushing signs wonders and miracles? Yes but shouldn't Pentecostals be also? They push a deeper relationship with Jesus, shouldn't we all? I for one would not like to have every word of every sermon I've ever preached micro analyzed. Don't we all say things that we wish we hadn't or be taken a different way than we intended.

Do you have any idea how many people Bethel is impacting for Jesus every year? I just chalk this thread up to jealousy misunderstandings and outright meanness over supposed WOF teachings. I've known Bill Johnson for a long time. I respect the man and just wish I could teach as well as he does. Our church is networked with Global Legacy while still being AG. I find no theological basis for not linking arms with them in our pursuit for Jesus, souls and revival.

Has Bill made mistakes? YEP Did he endorse Bentley after his fall Yep. Ok OTCP? But, have you made mistakes? YEP you might be wise to not disparage what you do not know. But I know that won't stop yoiu from doing it. Oh well. My 2 cents you will do what you always do, I'm not sure why I bother. This is old news been discussed ad nauseum. Haters gonna hate, it's what they do, it's just sad some of you call yourself Pentecostal. I expect this stuff from John Macarthur, just sad it comes from COG boys too.

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
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2/19/18 10:20 am


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Post cogvegan
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Post Re: This thread is beyond repulsive Dave Dorsey
brotherjames wrote:
Bill Johnson's theology is rooted in the AG (5th generation).

Nope. The AG has explicitly denounced Dominionism, Kingdom Now theology, and other core tenets of Johnson's approach to Scripture.

Quote:
The Assemblies of God has rejected the teaching that present-day apostles and prophets should govern the church (see papers titled “Endtime Revival”, “Apostles and Prophets,” and “Prophets and Personal Prophecies“)

The Assemblies of God has rejected the teaching that the church should work to take dominion of the earth prior to Christ’s return–a teaching known as “Kingdom Now” or “Dominion Theology” (see papers titled “Endtime Revival” and “The Kingdom of God“)

The Assemblies of God has rejected the teaching that the end-time church will become a victorious, militant army so it can take dominion of the earth–a teaching known as “Manifest Sons of God” or “Joel’s Army” (see paper titled “Endtime Revival”)

The Assemblies of God has rejected the teaching that Christians must identify a hierarchy of demonic spirits (also called “territorial spirits”) and wage battle against them for the gospel to advance–a teaching known as “strategic-level spiritual warfare” (see paper titled “Spiritual Warfare“)

The Assemblies of God has rejected the teaching that spiritual gifts, such as prophesying and healing people, can be imparted by church leaders through the practice of laying their hands on people (see paper titled “Imparting of Spiritual Gifts“)

http://www.spiritoferror.org/2013/06/the-assemblies-of-god-and-the-nar/3246
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2/19/18 6:38 pm


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Post Re: This thread is beyond repulsive Old Time Country Preacher
brotherjames wrote:
Ok OTCP?



I didn't begin this thread, six other fellers posted so far, but OTCP is the one what gits called out on it?
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2/19/18 7:39 pm


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Post Dave to be clear here brotherjames
1) Bill Johnson and I and many others believe that ALL the Gifts of the Spirit including ALL of the 5-fold 0r 4-fold Offices of Eldership exist in the church today. Eph 11 is quite clear that they will remain with us until... however Bill does not call himself and apostle and although he clearly is one and he does fellowship with some in the "new apostolic" group of C Peter Wagner he does not subscribe nor do i to the idea that prophets should rule the church. They give words from God and the Elders judge them as to how they act upon them. You are painting with too broad a brush. Now, Bill Hamon does think this way but he and Bill are in two different streams although they may merge in other areas.
2)Bethel Church does NOT teach Dominionism nor do I. Bill believes in a Rapture of the church as do I although I am not clear as to whether he is still pre-millennial or not. I am not. I am Pre-wrath (closer to Mid).
3)What Bill teaches as I do is that when Jesus was resurrected He finished His Work. THe Finished Work of Calvary was first taught in the early 1900's by Durham at one of great AG churches the Old Stone Church in Chicago. With His worked finished he told us to pray like Mat 6 - that His Will would be done on earth as it is in heaven. All satan stole from Adam has been restored thru Jesus Christ including the authority Adam had as the one with Dominion. This does not mean we take over, does not mean we are ruling over all this earth. Until Jesus comes satan is the god of this world but greater is He that is in me than he that in this world. In other words, Jesus in me is superior to the litlle g of this world. But, until Jesus comes we can only partially have victory. We do not teach Kingdom Now. Someone said Now but not yet - Bill May have said it but it doesn't mean we take over and usher in Jesus. It means we do have authority over satan and his minions but he is till here until Jesus comes again.
4) I disagree with the statement about what we teach about spiritual warfare. I have been pastoring in the AG for over 35 years and I have often been taught about spiritual warfare and even territorial spirits. Read Eph 6 and it's all there and elsewhere. Not sure what would be wrong about it even if the AG had rejected it.

ALSO note that the AG white papers or position papers do not have material sway over the church at large. They are scholarly treatises on important theological and practical issues but unless listed in the by-laws are mostly just suggestions and many in our fellowship hold varying opinions on these matters. I would also note you reference article is from an individual with Southern Baptist connections (probably John Macarthur -Ha). He wouldn't like most of what any Pentecostal or Charismatic group teaches including you (if you are indeed Pentecostal yourself).
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2/19/18 7:58 pm


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Post Tom Sterbens
Assemblies of God: Apostles and Prophets Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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2/19/18 8:33 pm


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Post As I said brotherjames
AG teaching of apostles and prophets have a legitimate rrole. Not all use the terminology. For example we don't call our Supt. An apostle although they certainly are operating in an apostolic office. We don't call pastors bishops either but they are operating in that function biblically.

So to call out Bill Johnson for being involved in the apostolic movement is kind of ridiculous considering the whole Pentecostal church is operating in the apostolic movement from the beginning.
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2/19/18 10:28 pm


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Post Re: As I said Carolyn Smith
brotherjames wrote:
AG teaching of apostles and prophets have a legitimate rrole. Not all use the terminology. For example we don't call our Supt. An apostle although they certainly are operating in an apostolic office. We don't call pastors bishops either but they are operating in that function biblically.

So to call out Bill Johnson for being involved in the apostolic movement is kind of ridiculous considering the whole Pentecostal church is operating in the apostolic movement from the beginning.


My question is...does Bethel Church participate/condone what caseyleejones said in the first post?
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Post Re: As I said Old Time Country Preacher
Carolyn Smith wrote:
brotherjames wrote:
AG teaching of apostles and prophets have a legitimate rrole. Not all use the terminology. For example we don't call our Supt. An apostle although they certainly are operating in an apostolic office. We don't call pastors bishops either but they are operating in that function biblically.

So to call out Bill Johnson for being involved in the apostolic movement is kind of ridiculous considering the whole Pentecostal church is operating in the apostolic movement from the beginning.


My question is...does Bethel Church participate/condone what caseyleejones said in the first post?


Google each thing he mentioned along with Bethel Church
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2/20/18 8:22 am


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Post Carolyn I'm not familiar brotherjames
In fact never even heard of any of those things except laying on the grave of famous evangelist but even that is exaggerated. I know of many people who have visited the grave of wigglesworth and asked for his anointing but to call it grave sucking is a bit outrageous. As to the other points, Bill has gone out of his way to avoid these types of things. He even refused to allow the video of the gold dust that fell one day to be shown to anyone for fear of the exact type of comments. People who attend my church can say anything they want to but it doesn't mean I endorse it. If one of my children said something about the Holy Spirit being like a genie and I found out about I would correct them but it would stil be out there.
Bill is about souls, healing and faith. If you want to criticize him about some of his teachings being similar to WOF you might have an argument. In revival churches you attract some fruits and nuts but let's not throw o it the baby with the bath water. Brownsville had a lot if detractors too but 2.5 million people came thru their doors for 5 years and multitudes were saved and healed and the church was blessed for the most part critics notwithstanding.
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Post Dave Dorsey
This article has several lengthy quotes from Kris Vallatton (Bethel's senior associate leader and cofounder of the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry) with a scriptural assessment -- https://definingdeception.com/2014/07/14/the-theological-errors-of-bethel-church-and-jesus-culture/

Here's an article focusing on Bill Johnson's desire to experience things beyond the Word of God, which is IMO the most dangerous aspect of his ministry. Again, it contains lengthy quotes: https://definingdeception.com/2017/05/18/hey-bill-johnson-bethel-church-god-put-himself-in-a-box-called-bible/

Here's a long review of Johnson's book When Heaven Invades Earth, which provides an excellent window into Johnson's false christology: http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue124.htm

Lots more out there, but this should get you started, Carolyn.
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2/20/18 9:13 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Also, here's a statement on Bethel's website about the tarot like "Destiny Cards": http://www.bethel.com/about/christalignment/

Now read that statement -- read what Bethel has to say about this ministry:
Quote:
When all of this came to our attention, we reached out to the Hodges to make sure we understood what they were doing and how they were trying to accomplish it. We’ve included a letter from them about their way of inviting people to encounter God in the context of festivals (see below). Of course, as we rightly assumed, they are not using “Christian tarot cards,” nor telling the future with cards.

Read what Bethel says about what they are doing and what they are trying to accomplish -- read Bill Johnson's and Bethel's endorsement of this practice -- and then compare it to this statement on the Christalignment website:

Quote:
" You can't come into your destiny until you take responsibility for your own life."

The Christalignment team use at least 5 different types of cards in Destiny Readings. These are not necessary for an intuitive reader, as we are all hearing from the third heaven realm, but greatly enhance the reading.

We believe they are more predictive and higher than most cards, and can address a current life question that you may have. Card readings with Christalignment are always followed by the reader taking the client into an encounter in the highest realm. Often colour is seen and it is in this realm that answers come for poignant questions that clients have and lives are changed.

http://www.christalignment.org/destinyreadingcards
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2/20/18 9:21 am


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