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 The "world" - a religious system (John 14-16)? |
Mark Ledbetter |
In another post the use of "the world" as metaphor was called into question as to whether it meant the "world order" or more specifically defined in John 14-16 as a "religious system," one suggested as the Pharisee religion specifically. This "religious system/world" hated Jesus and therefore He was hated by "religion."
In John's Gospel there are 50+ passages reference "the world," 11 of which are found in John 14-16. Following are these passages rewritten to include "religious system" for "the world." If the argument is to be made Jesus defined "world" as religious system, then we have to interpret each reference as such.
1. "that is the Spirit of truth, whom the religious system cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:17, NASB95)
2. "“After a little while the religious system will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also." (John 14:19, NASB95)
3. "Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the religious system?â€" (John 14:22, NASB95)
4. "“Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the religious system gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful." (John 14:27, NASB95)
5. "“I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the religious system is coming, and he has nothing in Me; but so that the religious system may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here." (John 14:30-31, NASB95)
6. " “If the religious system hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. “If you were of the religious system the religious system would love its own; but because you are not of the religious system, but I chose you out of the religious system, because of this the religious system hates you." (John 15:18-19, NASB95)
7. "“And He, when He comes, will convict the religious system concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;" (John 16:8, NASB95)
8. "and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this religious system has been judged." (John 16:11, NASB95)
9. "“Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the religious system will rejoice; you will grieve, but your grief will be turned into joy." (John 16:20, NASB95)
10. "“Whenever a woman is in labor she has pain, because her hour has come; but when she gives birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy that a child has been born into the religious system." (John 16:21, NASB95)
11. "“I came forth from the Father and have come into the religious system; I am leaving the religious system again and going to the Father.â€" (John 16:28, NASB95)
This survey alone suggests how ludicrous it is to assume Jesus may have in some portions of John 14-16 meant "religious system" then turn around and indicate it means "world order."
Another issue arises: Why would Jesus use "world order" (cosmos) in all other references but suddenly switch to "religious system" in John 14-16? Perhaps Jesus really meant, "God so love the religious system He gave His only Begotten Son..."; or "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the religious system; or "I am the Light of the religious system."
Just seems a little strange.
The end result, sadly, is to prop up a presupposition against the Law, a well-worn theme seen over and over and over and over again.
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10/14/17 10:21 pm
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bradfreeman |
In the context of John 14-16, Jesus is referring to "the world" that hated him. I use the term "religious system" to describe the world because those are the ones that hated Him. The world is anyone relying on his/her own righteousness, exalting themselves, building a tower to Heaven, saving themselves, claiming they don't need a physician, claiming they don't have sin, etc.
Jesus wasn't and the Holy Spirit isn't trying to get "the world" to come into agreement with the Law about whether it is a sin to eat pork, gather wood on Saturday or cut your sideburns. Jesus was and Holy Spirit is showing the world that they need to abandon their efforts to climb up some other way and come to faith in God.
Jn 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
Clearly, in John 14-16, "the world" doesn't mean every human on the planet as it does in John 3. Jesus specifically told His disciples they were "not of the world." Using your bias, He would have been excluding His disciples from the world "God so loved" in John 3. It's a different message, in a different context.
The end result of your bias, sadly, is to prop up a presupposition for the Law, a well-worn theme seen over and over and over and over again.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
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Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
10/21/17 6:10 am
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Tom Sterbens |
Consider following the flow of the third person plural pronouns, which I have highlighted, throughout the text below.
John 15:18–16:2 (NASB95)
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.
19 ...., because of this the world hates you.
20 ... If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
21 “But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.
22 “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, .....
23 “He who hates Me hates My Father also.
24 “If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.
25 “But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’
26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
1 “These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling.
2 “they will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.
From Ben Witherington III - "John's Wisdom, pg 261:
| Ben Witherington wrote: | | "The fact that it is said to come from "their Law" reveals the world here is chiefly associated with the Jewish opposition to Jesus, as becomes abundantly clear by the reference to the synagogue in 16:2." |
Although my opinion is that "the world" is NOT comprised solely of the Jewish "haters," a couple things become clear to me:
In this passage the Jews, who regard themselves as "the chosen/elect" from out of the rest of the world, are simply thrown back in together with "the world," in terms of their mindset. The Jews would have perceived such a thing as a tremendous insult of course. Further, I think there is a subliminal message on a new "chosen" (if you will) who are distinct from both "the world" in general and the Jews in particular. (A lot more could be said here....) |
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Posts: 4507
10/21/17 12:00 pm
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| Well, Brad... |
Mark Ledbetter |
there you go again presupposing and judging my position.
I post Scriptures and you call me biased.
Do you not do the same, post Scriptures and present your bias..
As for propping up "a presupposition for the Law," you cannot be farther from the truth.
You do not not know my mind and you certainly don't know my heart.
If there is any biased displayed it is yours.
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10/21/17 9:07 pm
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| Brad & Tom, lets pause and reflect a moment please: |
Mark Ledbetter |
John's prologue opens with this thought:
| Quote: | | There was the true Light [Logos, Word] which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:9-13 |
"His own did not receive Him." There is no debate. God's righteousness and justice determined Jesus would come to His own, those who might be defined borrowing from Paul's words in Romans 9:3-4 as His brethren, His kinsmen of the flesh, Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises.
Jesus came to the Jew first. This is/was God's plan - to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Yet, the Greek/Gentiles did not receive the Gospel until after Jewish rejection.
We know not all Jews rejected Jesus. The Disciples were "His own" but they believed (at least 11 did). On the day of Pentecost and after the Temple Healing at least 8,000 men were baptized. Acts 20:20 records 10 of thousands in Judea who had embraced Jesus as Savior and Messiah.
What I could agree to is this: The Jewish Leadership, the ones who ultimately rejected Jesus and were responsible for turning Him over to the Romans for execution were a "subset" of the world.
Clearly the world the Father loved and gave His only Begotten did not exclude everyone outside the "religious system". If John 15:25f is used to define "the world" as a "religious system," specifically those in the Sanhedrin who declared Jesus guilty, them they represent a necessary sub-set to fulfill the Scripture.
Peter's prayer after their release from the Sanhedrin Investigation (Acts 4) included these significant words:
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant [Son] Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (4:27-28, emphasis added)
Had they accepted Jesus, embraced Him as Messiah, where would redemption for Jew and Gentile derive? Where would be the necessary shedding of blood? Where would we as Gentiles stand today? Proselytes? God-Fearers?
What I take exception to is the Marcionian implications of a God who is bad and evil because He created the Law to condemn men while the God of the New Testament is Gracious and Caring and Compassionate.
If statements regarding the weakness of the Law, which is found in the flesh (for Israel, an uncircumcised heart - something God promised to remedy), were balanced, I'd have no issue. While there may have been posts stating balance, I have yet to read one (but then, I've not read much here lately).
The Gospel reveals God's righteousness, a continuity that flows throughout the First Covenant and found in the Person and Work of Jesus' death and resurrection.
I am no legalist, regardless of Brad's false assumptions, but I will defend the integrity and veracity of God's Word, described by Paul in 2 Timothy 3:15 as the Sacred Writings, 3:16, God-breathed; by both Paul and Peter as "the Oracles of God."
The Law, in Paul's own words is Holy as are the Commandments holy and good. They were never intended to provide the ultimate sacrifice but were sufficient for a season until the Righteous Jesus because our redemption, righteousness and sanctification.
And, less we forget, Jesus' command to Love our Neighbor is found in Leviticus 19:18 and part of the Holiness Code.
"As many as received Him," Jew and Gentile, "He gave the right to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name."
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Posts: 2109
10/21/17 10:23 pm
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| Re: Brad & Tom, lets pause and reflect a moment please: |
bradfreeman |
| Mark Ledbetter wrote: | | What I take exception to is the Marcionian implications of a God who is bad and evil because He created the Law to condemn men while the God of the New Testament is Gracious and Caring and Compassionate. |
I am pleased that Tom's involvement has at least softened your tone on this post.
God is not bad or evil for including the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden or for giving the Jews the commands they requested in the wilderness. But neither reveals God. As John said just a bit further down in John 1:
John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
You simply had not seen God, His righteousness, His love, His generosity, at any time, especially under the Law. The Law painted only shadowy pictures and veiled His glory, a glory revealed and unveiled in Christ.
Only at the of Jesus life did He say:
John 14:7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.â€
| Quote: | | I am no legalist, regardless of Brad's false assumptions, but I will defend the integrity and veracity of God's Word, described by Paul in 2 Timothy 3:15 as the Sacred Writings, 3:16, God-breathed; by both Paul and Peter as "the Oracles of God." |
And I am no anti-nomian, regardless of your false assumptions. But I will defend the integrity and veracity of God's Word, described by Paul in Romans 4, Romans 7, Romans 8, Romans 10, 1 Corinthians 15, 2 Corinthians 3, Galatians 2, Galatians 3, Galatians 4, Ephesians 2, Philippians 2, Colossians 2, 2 Timothy 3, Hebrews 7 and Hebrews 8. The Law was weak and useless to perfect anyone. It was a ministry of condemnation and death that veiled men's minds and hearts. It increased and empowered sin, was not of faith and is the bondwoman who has no place in the household of faith.
| Quote: | | And, less we forget, Jesus' command to Love our Neighbor is found in Leviticus 19:18 and part of the Holiness Code. |
Jesus didn't issue a command to love our neighbor...the Law did.
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?†37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.â€
Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets by loving us more than He loved Himself.
Jesus gave us a new commandment:
John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Our new commandment doesn't set the bar at self-love. It is selfless love.
Anyhow, it is clear in John 14-16 that Jesus' disciples were not of the world Jesus was referring to in John 14-16.
It is also clear that Jesus' disciples were of the world Jesus was referring to John 3. Context is key.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
10/22/17 8:02 am
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