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 Theological discourse on Oneness? |
Dave Dorsey |
Hi guys and gals!
I'm curious if anyone could recommend a theological work on Oneness Pentecostalism. I understand the teaching to be heretical, but I am curious to learn more about the alleged scriptural foundation, either in a Oneness work or a work against Oneness teaching. I have family associated with a Oneness Pentecostal church, and while I do not want to equip myself to lecture them, I would like to be better equipped for any conversation that might arise and give an opportunity to lovingly speak truth. I have been working through systematic works on the Trinity, and I consider study of the truth to be the foremost guard against error. Nevertheless, I am interested in becoming better informed about particular Oneness arguments.
I also don't want this thread to turn into a debate, so I would ask (as a poster, not an admin) that that be avoided if possible. I know we have at least one Oneness poster here and I consider him a brother.
Dave |
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8/4/17 12:08 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Dr. Gregory Boyd, himself a former Oneness believer, has written a good response to them from his now 'charismatic Baptist' point of view.
In my own fairly extensive (and generally friendly) experience with Oneness Pentecostals, I would have to say that it largely depends on the Oneness person you happen to be dealing with. Some are quite dogmatic and condemnatory of all trinitarians as 'tritheists' while others are accepting of the trinitarian view as a legitimate Christian position to hold.
In my experience, it really comes down to whether or not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be rightly considered as persons (as trinitarianism and Scripture affirms) or as manifestations of the Godhead, as Oneness typically affirms. |
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8/4/17 12:15 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Thank you, sir. I appreciate the response. |
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8/4/17 12:20 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| The Bible is gonna be ya best bet, Dave. It clearly sets forth the triune essence of God. |
Acts-pert Poster
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8/4/17 2:14 pm
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sheepdogandy |
John 17.
Slam dunk.
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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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8/4/17 2:16 pm
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Christopher Stephenson |
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | borders on the polemics of a spurned lover |
you have a way with words  |
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8/4/17 9:07 pm
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| Bonnie |
Christopher Stephenson |
Thanks. It's (as in, it is  ) the most gracious way that I know to describe the state of being once an insider but now an outsider. |
Friendly Face
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8/4/17 9:26 pm
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| Re: Theological discourse on Oneness? |
Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Hi guys and gals!
I'm curious if anyone could recommend a theological work on Oneness Pentecostalism. I understand the teaching to be heretical, but I am curious to learn more about the alleged scriptural foundation, either in a Oneness work or a work against Oneness teaching. I have family associated with a Oneness Pentecostal church, and while I do not want to equip myself to lecture them, I would like to be better equipped for any conversation that might arise and give an opportunity to lovingly speak truth. I have been working through systematic works on the Trinity, and I consider study of the truth to be the foremost guard against error. Nevertheless, I am interested in becoming better informed about particular Oneness arguments.
I also don't want this thread to turn into a debate, so I would ask (as a poster, not an admin) that that be avoided if possible. I know we have at least one Oneness poster here and I consider him a brother.
Dave |
Why not read some of their writing instead of the interpretations of their critics, and then form your own opinions? I have found that both Oneness and Trinitarian apologists usually misrepresent each other.
I'm not sure what makes the Oneness doctrine "heretical" in the minds of Trinitarians. Many Oneness adherents would not like me saying this but the Oneness doctrine really fits under the umbrella of Trinitarianism, at least the Trinitarian views that do not resemble the tritheism of Dake.
Both views attempt to explain how this one being , a "He", exists uniquely in a pluralistic way.
"The Oneness of God" by David K. Bernard is a decent place to start.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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8/4/17 9:32 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | John 17.
Slam dunk. |
Ouch! In John 17 Jesus refers to the Father as "the one true God" (verse 3). There is no good Trinitarian answer for this verse.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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8/4/17 9:35 pm
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| The reason oneness is heretical |
brotherjames |
Is because it denies the Trinity. Duh.
If you want to drive a oneness scholar crazy, ask him who Jesus was praying to, especially in Gethsemane. And when he says "himself " try not to hurt yourself when you laugh. Seriously though, even a cursury reading of John's Gospel will show you that Jesus' strongest desire, his main teaching throughout was intended to "show us tbe Father". And tbe pre-existant Son wasn't speaking of Himself. And why would Jesus need to leave earth in order that He woukd send the paraclete, the Spirit if HE was the Spirit? Stupid is as stupid does, just plain dumb. They twist into pretzels trying to prove a unitarian, modal ideology that can't exist, doesn't exist And never did exist. |
Acts-celerater
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8/4/17 10:53 pm
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| Re: Theological discourse on Oneness? |
Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Why not read some of their writing instead of the interpretations of their critics, and then form your own opinions? |
I'm good with that! Thanks for the suggestion, and thanks also to Christopher Stephenson. |
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8/5/17 5:32 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Ouch! In John 17 Jesus refers to the Father as "the one true God" (verse 3). There is no good Trinitarian answer for this verse. |
I know I said I didn't want to start a debate.  Forgive me!
But... this is only a problem verse if you are also going to deny the deity of Christ, and/or deny that He is of one nature with the Father. If the Father (or the only God, in this context) to whom Jesus is praying is the Only True God in a way that would make this verse problematic for Trinitarian believers, then the Jesus that God sent in the second part of verse 3 cannot be of one nature with the One who sent Him. |
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8/5/17 5:36 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Ouch! In John 17 Jesus refers to the Father as "the one true God" (verse 3). There is no good Trinitarian answer for this verse. |
I know I said I didn't want to start a debate. Forgive me!
But... this is only a problem verse if you are also going to deny the deity of Christ, and/or deny that He is of one nature with the Father. If the Father (or the only God, in this context) to whom Jesus is praying is the Only True God in a way that would make this verse problematic for Trinitarian believers, then the Jesus that God sent in the second part of verse 3 cannot be of one nature with the One who sent Him. |
Not if one understands that Jesus is the expressed image of the one true
God. God is fully revealed and incarnate in his Son.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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8/5/17 7:50 am
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| Re: The reason oneness is heretical |
Resident Skeptic |
| brotherjames wrote: | Is because it denies the Trinity. Duh.
If you want to drive a oneness scholar crazy, ask him who Jesus was praying to, especially in Gethsemane. And when he says "himself " try not to hurt yourself when you laugh. Seriously though, even a cursury reading of John's Gospel will show you that Jesus' strongest desire, his main teaching throughout was intended to "show us tbe Father". And tbe pre-existant Son wasn't speaking of Himself. And why would Jesus need to leave earth in order that He woukd send the paraclete, the Spirit if HE was the Spirit? Stupid is as stupid does, just plain dumb. They twist into pretzels trying to prove a unitarian, modal ideology that can't exist, doesn't exist And never did exist. |
Oh my. What you've said here underscores my previous statement that both Oneness and Trinity adherents often misrepresent each other. What you described above is not Oneness theology.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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8/5/17 7:52 am
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| Well actually no. That is EXACTLY WHAT ONENESS DOCTRINE TEACHES |
brotherjames |
You are being disingenuous if you say otherwise. I am not misrepresenting anything. This heresy was dividing the AG in 1915 (And it was the reason we established our 16 Tenents of Faith in 1918 to refute most of this modalism nonsense) And it has morphed into mumbo jumbo twisting of anti trinitarianism from the simple rebaptism in Jesus Name it started out as.
If anyone is actually interested to know what Oneness doctrine (especially UPC) teaches read this scholarly treatise here:
http://scriptoriumdaily.com/oneness-pentecostalism-an-analysis/ |
Acts-celerater
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8/5/17 8:29 am
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| Re: Well actually no. That is EXACTLY WHAT ONENESS DOCTRINE TEACHES |
Resident Skeptic |
| brotherjames wrote: | You are being disingenuous if yoy say otherwise. I am not misrepresenting a anything. This heresy was dividing the AG in 1915 And it has morphed into mumbo jumbo twisting of anti trinitarianism from the simple rebaptism in Jesus Name it started out as.
If anyone is actually interested to know what Oneness doctrine (especially UPC) teaches read this scholarly treatise here:
http://scriptoriumdaily.com/oneness-pentecostalism-an-analysis/ |
I have been in the Oneness ranks since 1993. You have not. I think I know better than you what is taught. If you say that we teach that Jesus was praying to himself, then you are either mislead or lying. You have made a charge without substantiating it.
The charge you make can just as easily be made against Trinitarians. Trinitarians believe in one God. They don't believe that the Father, Son and Spirit are three different Gods. Therefore, in the garden God was praying to himself, by your own standard.
You cite a Oneness critic instead of doing any of your own research. Sad.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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8/5/17 8:34 am
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Dave Dorsey |
I want to thank everyone for offering some excellent suggestions before this thread realized its ultimate and unavoidable destiny and became flamingly derailed.  I consider this thread a success and thank you again for the responses. |
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8/5/17 9:23 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | I want to thank everyone for offering some excellent suggestions before this thread realized its ultimate and unavoidable destiny and became flamingly derailed. I consider this thread a success and thank you again for the responses. |
God bless you, Dave.
I think you will find as I did that the Oneness doctrine is really a form of Trinitarianism more than Modalism.
I don't think God is as nearly concerned with this as we are.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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8/5/17 9:34 am
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Cojak |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | I want to thank everyone for offering some excellent suggestions before this thread realized its ultimate and unavoidable destiny and became flamingly derailed. I consider this thread a success and thank you again for the responses. |
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Methinks hijacking this thought was too easy. Since I live by what I was taught and feel, I still enjoyed the read. We do have some wise folk attached here.  I cannot express my true feelings in words, but I am Glad the Lord knows my heart.  I guess I will always be a Trinity type of guy! 
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8/5/17 10:54 am
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