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caveator |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | You can always send your money to us.
My salary is posted on the vestibule bulletin board for the world to see.
Just go to the website.  |
Would you mind posting that on here? I'd like to know how much you make. I'm also curious about how much you give to special speakers. I'm sure that you don't mind. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 586
2/26/17 2:20 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Your demand to see his salary in writing is nothing more than being nosy & You send him the message that he is not trusted. |
Dean, did you read the link in the OP? This is not about nosiness; it's about transparency.
I can identify with Cojak's sentiment that we really don't want government agencies involved in checking on churches, but if the church as a whole doesn't operate in a transparent enough manner (and demand it of those churches which are set up just to accommodate a person's greed), we needn't start squawking about how the church is being persecuted when the tax man decides he wants his share of the celebrity pastors' easy money. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
2/26/17 8:33 am
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Dean Steenburgh |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | Your demand to see his salary in writing is nothing more than being nosy & You send him the message that he is not trusted. |
Dean, did you read the link in the OP? This is not about nosiness; it's about transparency.
I can identify with Cojak's sentiment that we really don't want government agencies involved in checking on churches, but if the church as a whole doesn't operate in a transparent enough manner (and demand it of those churches which are set up just to accommodate a person's greed), we needn't start squawking about how the church is being persecuted when the tax man decides he wants his share of the celebrity pastors' easy money. |
I mis-spoke & should have said that a demand to see the pastor's salary "comes across as being" nosy & it feels like dis-trust.
I hear what you're saying & in the spirit of transparency we provide our members with a financial breakdown of how the money is spent each year in January (in other words in Jan. we explain how the previous 12 months income was spent) We also provide a forecast of how the future budget will be managed.
I give them percentage breakdowns as in 25% was spent on facilities, 35% on staff salaries, 10% on youth & kids ministry & 30% on operational expenses. Then we break it down by category to give a little better view of the expenses, but No we don't show where we spent $4.74 at Walmart buying crayons & $34 at Costco buying toilet paper nor do we show $878 for the electric bill & $43,000 for Pastor Jim's salary.
If they are a member in good standing & show a regular commitment each month to supporting the church then I would not have a problem sitting down in a confidential setting & letting them pour over most of the expenses in the church books. There are times when certain expenses have to be kept private & confidential in the event of an emergency or possibly a legal matter but all in all I could do that & in fact have done it.
As to squawking about how the church is potentially being persecuted or afraid of when the tax man cometh, I don't think they (IRS) would start in too many of our CoG locations due to their size.
Personally I don't know of any church that is set up to accommodate greed, in my mind that isn't a church as much as it is a private club or maybe a cult.
In fact for the last couple of years we have seen better transparency coming out of our own national HQ in regards to finances but in order to view them you have to check off the box that says you will not share the information you read & you are to keep it confidential.
Why do you think they do that?
Because for the most part many people can't handle what they read or what they learn regarding organizations & how the income is spent.
From past experiences we have seen our share of total mis-understandings & in fact an eager attempt to undermine authority & challenge decisions when people learn of the smallest details.
If I were to tell some people that our overall budget for the year was just over $300,000 later on I'll hear something like, 'did you know the pastor at FCC is making $300,000 a year?' which is a total lie & mis-representation of the facts.
Again, what purpose does it serve for people to know exactly how much the pastor earns? If he makes $250 a week does that make a difference? If he makes $500 or $750 or perhaps $1,000 a week will it matter in the overall scheme of transparency?
I have shown you a model of what we use & it works for our people - i think sometimes the calls for transparency need to be looked at as a tool & not come across as an inquisition, we have enough issues in the church for people to fight & debate over w/out providing more fodder for the fire.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/26/17 12:09 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
| Dean , how do you feel about Benny Hinn , Copeland etc. Lumping their salaries into one category of the entire organization. Regardless whether you give to them or not. Do you see anything wrong with that? And what is your opinion of them receiving millions in compensation? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
2/26/17 2:01 pm
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| Here you go cth & Bonnie |
brotherjames |
This a sample of part of our actual Annual Report. Had our business Meeting yesterday and these are our actual numbers for the General (operations) Fund. Doesn't include Missions, Bible College and many other Funds. Spent more than 100 K on Missions of which we are quite pleased. No one cares about how much specifically any pastor is making. As you can see, no one is getting rich but the principle is WE DON'T REVEAL SPECIFIC SALARIES! PERIOD. There are 3 columns in each line. 2016 Budget $, 2016 Actual and 2017 Budget $. It doesn't copy exactly but you get the idea.
GENERAL FUND
Income & Expenses VS Actual
2016 Budget & Actual VS 2017 Budget
(in thousands of $)
2016 2016 2017
BUDGET $ ACTUAL BUDGET $
Funds On Hand Beg. Of Year 1.3 3.8 12.6
Other Funds Income (Maintenance) 7.0 28.7 1.0
INCOME (General Fund ) 415.0 424.5 420.0
TOTAL INCOME AVAILABLE 423.3 457.0 433.6
EXPENSES
Payroll – 9 (4 FT – 5 PT) 176.0 176.7 180.2
Conferences/Seminar 2.0 1.0 2.0
FICA 4.9 4.7 5.0
Health Insurance 36.0 40.1 40.5
Moving Expense 0.0 0.0 0.0
Workers Comp. 1.5 2.0 2.0
Sub-Total 220.4 224.5 229.7
UTILITIES
Telephone (includes internet) 8.6 9.0 8.9
Internet (web sites etc) 0.8 0.6 0.8
Electricity 27.0 24.5 25.0
Water 7.5 5.7 6.0
Gas 4.0 2.6 3.5
Sub-Total 47.6 42.4 44.2
OTHER OPERATING
T & E 2.0 2.3 2.3
Audit 0.0 0.0 0.0
Returned Checks 0.3 0.2 0.3
Dues/taxes 14.0 14.0 14.0
Miscellaneous (van/music/ac transfer) 1.0 30.3 1.0
Sub-Total 17.3 46.8 17.6
FACILITIES
Building Maintenance 8.0 5.6 7.0
Cleaning Supplies 2.5 2.1 2.5
Cleaning Sub-Contractors 7.0 7.2 7.5
Landscaping 7.5 5.6 6.5
Equipment maintenance 0.5 0.0 0.5
Equipment purchase 2.0 4.2 4.0
Storage 0.0 0.0 0.0
Parking Lot 0.0 0.0 0.5
Trash 3.5 4.1 4.2
Insurance claims 1.0 0.0 1.0
Sub-Total 32.0 28.8 33.7
Vehicles 5.0 4.6 4.7
Vehicle Insurance 2.0 2.1 2.1
Total Vehicles 7.0 6.7 6.8
Other Insurance (property/liability) 9.1 9.5 9.5
COMMUNICATIONS
Printing (in house/sub contractors) 1.5 0.5 1.0
Postage 1.0 0.7 1.0
Advertising 7.5 6.7 7.0
Other 0.2 0.2 0.2
Sub-Total 9.7 8.1 9.2
OFFICE
Office Equipment/Furnishings 0.5 0.0 0.5
Software Subscriptions 0.5 0.0 2.5
Office Supplies 2.0 1.7 1.8
Maint. Contract 6.2 5.8 6.0
Sub-Total 9.2 7.5 10.8
Children's mins 3.0 2.1 3.0
Singles 0.2 0.0 0.0
Sunday School 1.0 0.3 0.5
Adult Ministries 0.7 0.2 0.5
OTHER
Tapes/Sound/Lighting 1.0 0.0 0.5
Fellowships 4.0 4.3 4.5
Guest Honorariums
*self-funded 90% 1.5 6.9 2.0
Sub-Total 6.5 11.2 7.0
Pastoral Care/Evang 5.0 4.3 4.5
SUB-TOTAL EXPENSES 369.5 392.4 377.0
SUB-TOTAL INCOME 423.3 457.0 433.6
SUB-TOTAL EXPENSES 369.5 392.4 377.0
BALANCE 53.8 64.6 56.6
(in thousands of $) 2016 2016 2017
BUDGET $ ACTUAL BUDGET $
Funds which are funded from GF
I-CARE
Total I-CARE Income (incl van) 1.5 32.3 1.0
Total I-CARE Expenses (incl van) 1.8 33.7 2.5
Balance -0.3 -1.4 -1.5
BUILDING
Income 2.0 1.4 1.5
Expenses (Mort. Loan Payment) 45.6 45.5 45.5
Balance -43.6 -44.2 -44.0
YOUTH
Income .7 1.4 0.7
Expenses 3.0 1.9 2.0
Balance -2.3 -0.5 -1.3
MUSIC
Income (incl from GF) 0.0 5.4 0.0
Expenses (sound board etc) 4.0 8.2 4.0
Balance -4.0 -2.8 -4.0
HEALING ROOMS/WM'S
Income 0.0 0.0 0.0
Expenses 0.5 0.4 0.1
Balance -0.5 -0.4 -0.1
OUTREACH
Income .8 0.6 0.6
Expenses 3.5 3.3 3.5
Balance -2.7 -2.7 -2.9
TOTAL INCOME ALL FUNDS 428.3 498.0 437.4
TOTAL EXPENSES ALL FUNDS 427.4 485.4 434.1
BALANCES .9 12.6 3.3 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/27/17 2:48 pm
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bonnie knox |
You know, I don't think I asked for your budget. But quite a ways back in this thread, I understood you to say you didn't believe it was any of the members' business what your salary was. (And you also said you were done." I frankly have NO IDEA what you mean when you say that.)
You've been quite consistent with the view point that it is no one's business what your salary is. What you've done with your numbers is reiterate that. I don't know if you think I'm dense or what, but I understand that you do not want to nor do you think you should disclose your salary. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
2/27/17 8:33 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
| bonnie knox wrote: | You know, I don't think I asked for your budget. But quite a ways back in this thread, I understood you to say you didn't believe it was any of the members' business what your salary was. (And you also said you were done." I frankly have NO IDEA what you mean when you say that.)
You've been quite consistent with the view point that it is no one's business what your salary is. What you've done with your numbers is reiterate that. I don't know if you think I'm dense or what, but I understand that you do not want to nor do you think you should disclose your salary. |
Sooner or Later it will catch up with those that hide their salaries. Then watch the " Excuse Manufacturing Mill " go into overtime.  |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
2/27/17 8:45 pm
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| Baloney |
brotherjames |
Ct6
My point Bonnie in posting our Annual Report was to show you the level of transparency in our reporting. The ONLY thing we don't show and I repeat NO ONE ASKS FOR OR CARES ABOUT is our specific salaries. I' m with Dean on this one. Only nosy nit pickers care and I don't Ave time to deal with them. And I would be done if it weren't for some comments that I couldnt let stand. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/27/17 9:07 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Only nosy nit pickers care |
not true |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
2/27/17 9:55 pm
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ZKP |
It think it is wise for salaries to be made available, but as a church member, I would not use the decision not to post or reveal salaries as a reason not to give. I don't give based on what the pastor or his staff members make in salary. I am not for any abuse of funds being directed to excessively inflated salaries, however, I am a firm believer that our church's should pay their staff well, especially if they are doing an outstanding job.
I think some of the heartburn can be contributed often to some staff members attitude when dealing with members. Let's face it, there are those out there pastoring churches that are cold and standoffish toward the membership. This contributes to the feelings for some members to question why someone with those shortcomings making inflated salaries.
I work for a large urban school district as an administrator, and once per year, salaries are posted on the BOE website and in the Tennessean. It is my belief decisions whether to post salaries or not should be a decision of the local church board and not the decision of the pastor. |
Member
Posts: 34
2/28/17 3:52 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
| ZKP wrote: | It think it is wise for salaries to be made available, but as a church member, I would not use the decision not to post or reveal salaries as a reason not to give. I don't give based on what the pastor or his staff members make in salary. I am not for any abuse of funds being directed to excessively inflated salaries, however, I am a firm believer that our church's should pay their staff well, especially if they are doing an outstanding job.
I think some of the heartburn can be contributed often to some staff members attitude when dealing with members. Let's face it, there are those out there pastoring churches that are cold and standoffish toward the membership. This contributes to the feelings for some members to question why someone with those shortcomings making inflated salaries.
I work for a large urban school district as an administrator, and once per year, salaries are posted on the BOE website and in the Tennessean. It is my belief decisions whether to post salaries or not should be a decision of the local church board and not the decision of the pastor. |
Good post Z. But I disagree. when the pastor see's something that is not right then it is his duty to address that issue. If the board is in charge of the church and elects to go a different route then so be it. the pastor would have done his duty. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
2/28/17 5:08 pm
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Cojak |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | Only nosy nit pickers care |
not true |
I do tend to agree with the 'not true' response. I would hate to know my pastor considered me nosy or a nit picker if I were to ask the clerk what the salaries were.
That is just a personal opinion. I doubt if that would drive me from a church, but it would sure lower my opinion of my pastor. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
2/28/17 10:39 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
| Cojak wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | Only nosy nit pickers care |
not true |
I do tend to agree with the 'not true' response. I would hate to know my pastor considered me nosy or a nit picker if I were to ask the clerk what the salaries were.
That is just a personal opinion. I doubt if that would drive me from a church, but it would sure lower my opinion of my pastor. |
 |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
3/1/17 6:16 am
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Da Sheik |
| For those that don't disclose their salary amounts, how do you handle pay raises ? Or God forbid, that you would have to take a reduction in salary. Who decides the amount of increase and how is it brought before the congregation ? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
3/1/17 3:52 pm
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| Re: Baloney |
c6thplayer1 |
| brotherjames wrote: | Ct6
My point Bonnie in posting our Annual Report was to show you the level of transparency in our reporting. The ONLY thing we don't show and I repeat NO ONE ASKS FOR OR CARES ABOUT is our specific salaries. I' m with Dean on this one. Only nosy nit pickers care and I don't Ave time to deal with them. And I would be done if it weren't for some comments that I couldnt let stand. |
James , thats kind of like trump saying NO ONE CARES ABOUT his taxes. there are a lot of folks that care without prejudice but bite the bullet for fear of being labeled as something they are not.
There was a couple that we knew that started a church and hid the fact that they were not a 501c3 along with the financials. Finally when someone asked about it. They were banned from the church as a troublemaker. They were not a trouble maker. To make a long story short the church went bankrupt and guess where the sheltered money went? Transparency keeps everyone honest. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
3/1/17 10:16 pm
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| Do what GOD tells you to do!! |
Clint Wills |
How about this...PRAY ABOUT IT!!
I don't think that my church attendance or my giving has anything to do with where the money goes, but rather my heart in giving. The Bible tells me to give, and also tells me that cheerfully giving is the only way to go. Church leaders will answer to God for how that money is spent - not me. Well...yes me because I'm a church leader...but not me as a member.
If I am being obedient to God, and His Word, then the obedience of someone else really has nothing to do with me. I get tired of people looking for the perfect church. Newsflash: IT DOESN'T EXIST! If it's not finances, it's something else. Not getting "fed" enough, not enough for my wife/husband, not a good enough kids ministry, not a good enough teen ministry, no senior adult ministry. We've heard them all. Seek God for where to attend church, then support that church as the Bible has instructed us. Does it need to be any more complicated that that? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5161
3/2/17 9:06 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Church leaders will answer to God for how that money is spent |
Of course they will, but does that absolve an individual of responsibility to God to be a good steward of her money and give it to causes where the money is not squandered in waste or greed?
I have heard too many people claiming that the dumb sheep should fork over the money and leave the results of what happens to it up to God.
As one commenter asked about withholding complete financial transparency, what Biblical principle is affirmed by that? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
3/2/17 9:34 am
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Cojak |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | Church leaders will answer to God for how that money is spent |
Of course they will, but does that absolve an individual of responsibility to God to be a good steward of her money and give it to causes where the money is not squandered in waste or greed?
[/b]? |
Touche' 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
3/2/17 11:05 am
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Dean Steenburgh |
| bonnie knox wrote: | You know, I don't think I asked for your budget. But quite a ways back in this thread, I understood you to say you didn't believe it was any of the members' business what your salary was. (And you also said you were done." I frankly have NO IDEA what you mean when you say that.)
You've been quite consistent with the view point that it is no one's business what your salary is. What you've done with your numbers is reiterate that. I don't know if you think I'm dense or what, but I understand that you do not want to nor do you think you should disclose your salary. |
You know bonnie, there comes a time during a discussion on most topics that we try to maintain a civil accord & maybe even go out of our way to explain ourselves.
When I read your post above I found myself thinking, 'what kind of Christian talks to a Pastor like this?
Pastors are men who have a unique calling on their life & the word says they are worthy of double honor for their labor in the Word & doctrine (I Tim. 5).
I didn't take brotherjames partial posting of his church budget as a way to make you feel dense but you sound like you can't wait to pounce on somebody if their opinion is not shared by you. Are you sensitive about being treated as though you are dense?
It's you & c6th who can't seem to accept the fact that not all churches function the way you want them to & you both keep making comments on every poster as if we're the dense one's who don't get YOUR point ...but we do get it ...we just have a different way of going about church business & our salaries are considered private.
So if he felt like providing you with a few intimate details about his church budget, it appears as though he wanted you to get a little better view as to how they describe the details of their financial structure.
Your words were harsh & condescending as though he had no more to share since he said he was 'done'. He probably felt 'done' as in trying to share his opinion with you.
We all seem to get a healthy dose of your opinion on just about every single thread that is posted, but not too many people would try to talk down to you.
You like to use a biblical model with your life & your choices? How about the biblical principle that we are to treat God's anointed with double honor?
Do you feel like the tone of your condescending remarks were showing honor?
His church budget shows $176,000.00 for 9 employees ...do you think there is room in that expenditure for a pastor to be "over-paid when he shares that amount with 8 other people?"
I mean correct me if I'm wrong (which I'm sure you'll do) but isn't the basis for wanting to know your pastor's salary somewhat based on whether or not YOU think he is over-paid or that he isn't "Hiding" his income?
For the most part our churches are set up to where the members vote for the Pastor's Council or Board of Elders. These men have varying responsibilities one of which is to help oversee church finances. In that financial arena is the difficult discussion regarding compensation for church employees. If your church members elect a board that they trust then it is only common sense that the same board members will do what is right by determining the salary of church employees & the senior pastor.
You remind me of former members in our church who had trust issues.
We've had emergencies in the church before where members could not pay their mortgage, I didn't put their name in the annual report at the end of the year because I felt it would embarrass them. So if you were facing a huge issue & your church was able to help you, would you want the annual report to show that the Knox family received $$$ amount of help this past year to pay their bills?
I don't think you would want that known about your family & your personal financial hardship. Some things are private.
My salary is private but any individual can look at our overall budget & staff expenditure & determine for themselves that the pastor is def not over paid.
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/2/17 6:35 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | | Dean , how do you feel about Benny Hinn , Copeland etc. Lumping their salaries into one category of the entire organization. Regardless whether you give to them or not. Do you see anything wrong with that? And what is your opinion of them receiving millions in compensation? |
First of all I don't know for sure that they lump their salaries into one category. Do you have some sort of diagram or chart that shows this as a fact?
Funny that you ask this because I have met Benny & found him to be quite interesting. I don't agree with some of his antics but I do feel he has been mis-represented & usually it's church folks who can't wait to shred such ministers apart ...no wonder the world looks at christians with contempt.
I do not give to any of these tele-evangelist but not because I don't trust them. We focus our giving towards missions & mission projects.
I don't know the salary of pastors from most of our larger churches & I'm fine with that.
I don't know the salary of huge mega churches & I'm fine with that.
My daughter & her husband attend a church in San Diego where they serve on staff full time & she tells me they don't know the salary of their lead pastor. They see the same annual report that all the members see & the staff budget is one portion of the overall budget & it's split among about 330 employees. She says she has never even thought to ask what the lead pastors salary is because its private & personal.
What do you gain by knowing such things?
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/2/17 6:48 pm
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