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 a tithe is a tithe. |
wayne |
| I've heard of pastors doing this and I understand why they do it but, there is that feeling in the pit of my stomach that tells me it is wrong. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
12/8/16 9:36 am
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Quote: | | We forget sometimes that we are serving where we are because an overseer had confidence in us to give us the opportunity. |
The only way I can respond to this is to state that the overseer didn't call me, God did & it's because of that calling I'm allowed to preach.
I pastor this church as a direct result of something unique that God had to do. In fact the overseer at the time said he could never help make it happen because I wasn't even credentialed with the CoG at the time. But God has a way of helping AB's see it His way.
I can understand the point you were trying to make but I don't give any man more credit than I give God.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/8/16 8:18 pm
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| So here is a question |
Dean Steenburgh |
Do you use an envelope with the tithe option printed on the envelope, but then you don't tell your givers how the finances of that tithe are dispersed?
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/8/16 8:21 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
Would anybody have a problem with a giving envelope printed like this:
You have to imagine a nice envelope with graphics printed.
Welcome to
Saddle Creek Church
Tithe ____
(10% of these funds are used to support our Headquarters at State & National offices)
General Giving _____
Missions Support _____
Youth Ministry _____
Love Offering _____
Miscellaneous _____
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/8/16 8:41 pm
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| Re: So here is a question |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | Do you use an envelope with the tithe option printed on the envelope, but then you don't tell your givers how the finances of that tithe are dispersed?
. |
Yes, I use a envelope what says "TITHE" on it. It also says MISSIONS, an it says BENEVOLENCE, an its got GENERAL FUND. It also has a place what reads "SPECIAL LOVE GIFT/SEED FAITH VOW FOR OTCP," printed in font 4 sizes larger than all the other categories. At last category is just in case God leads somebody in a special way. 
Ever single person what joins OTCP's church is given a sheet what explains the financial structure of the COG, detailin in particular that of the tithe only, 5% goes to international and 5% goes to state. It then details what that money is used for, an that in doin, the church is part of a global initiative an not just a single local church doin its own thing. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15565
12/8/16 8:44 pm
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| Re: a tithe is a tithe. |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| wayne wrote: | | I've heard of pastors doing this and I understand why they do it but, there is that feeling in the pit of my stomach that tells me it is wrong. |
I wonder if at feelin in the pit of ya stomach, wayne, might have somethin to do with ethics an integrity? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15565
12/8/16 8:46 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | ...detailin in particular that of the tithe only, 5% goes to international and 5% goes to state. It then details what that money is used for, an that in doin, the church is part of a global initiative an not just a single local church doin its own thing. |
Ole Timer, I asked about that on Acts one time because our church has the tithe of tithe listed under "missions" on the budget, and I have a feeling of the 5% that goes to international, not a lot of it is "missions," but I couldn't object since I don't really know how the 5% is disbursed. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/8/16 9:43 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | ...detailin in particular that of the tithe only, 5% goes to international and 5% goes to state. It then details what that money is used for, an that in doin, the church is part of a global initiative an not just a single local church doin its own thing. |
Ole Timer, I asked about that on Acts one time because our church has the tithe of tithe listed under "missions" on the budget, and I have a feeling of the 5% that goes to international, not a lot of it is "missions," but I couldn't object since I don't really know how the 5% is disbursed. |
10% of tithes received is tithed by the church. 5% is sent to International Offices, 5% is sent to State Offices. These monies are used for evangelism, outreach, planting new churches, benevolence and education. 100% of all offerings remain in the local church. Denominational affiliation is important for the following reasons:
o It provides a systematic doctrinal base which promotes balance.
o It provides a structure of protection in the event of a leadership crisis.
o It provides a missions network, disbursing funds with integrity.
o It provides a system of accountability: Local, District, State and International.
o It provides the local church ministry impact beyond its own community.
o It provides the local church with direct contact to the entire world.
o It provides historical and contemporary perspective. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15565
12/8/16 9:47 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | These monies are used for evangelism, outreach, planting new churches, benevolence and education. |
And this includes probably a good amount for salaries and the renovation of the headquarters... I'm looking for percentages--what percentage is church plants, what percentage is world missions, etc., what percentage is administrative? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/8/16 9:50 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | These monies are used for evangelism, outreach, planting new churches, benevolence and education. |
And this includes probably a good amount for salaries and the renovation of the headquarters... I'm looking for percentages--what percentage is church plants, what percentage is world missions, etc., what percentage is administrative? |
The international/state offices is like the federal govment in at they generate NO MONEY in an of themselves. If no monies came into the international/state offices, there would be no money available. I say that to say that, yes, some a the money HAS TO BE USED for administration/salaries in the areas of evangelism, outreach, planting new churches, benevolence, education, etc. Miss Bonnie, I don't rightly know the zact percentages. If I did I would post em. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15565
12/8/16 9:57 pm
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wayne |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | These monies are used for evangelism, outreach, planting new churches, benevolence and education. |
And this includes probably a good amount for salaries and the renovation of the headquarters... I'm looking for percentages--what percentage is church plants, what percentage is world missions, etc., what percentage is administrative? |
The international/state offices is like the federal govment in at they generate NO MONEY in an of themselves. If no monies came into the international/state offices, there would be no money available. I say that to say that, yes, some a the money HAS TO BE USED for administration/salaries in the areas of evangelism, outreach, planting new churches, benevolence, education, etc. Miss Bonnie, I don't rightly know the zact percentages. If I did I would post em. |
In the environment that I work in, the state office would be called a cost center. The Churches would be call revenue producing departments. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
12/9/16 10:43 am
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Change Agent |
| Does God need pastors to tell members what pot they give in? Is it a requirement to tithe to be a member? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
12/9/16 3:04 pm
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SouthGeorgiaBoy |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Quote: | | We forget sometimes that we are serving where we are because an overseer had confidence in us to give us the opportunity. |
The only way I can respond to this is to state that the overseer didn't call me, God did & it's because of that calling I'm allowed to preach.
I pastor this church as a direct result of something unique that God had to do. In fact the overseer at the time said he could never help make it happen because I wasn't even credentialed with the CoG at the time. But God has a way of helping AB's see it His way.
I can understand the point you were trying to make but I don't give any man more credit than I give God.
. |
Don't read more into my statement than what is intended. You and I both know and understand that ultimately our calling is from God. There are many movements that we can align with. But we are in the Church of God by choice. We know that there is a financial system that we agree to operate by. Anything else is rebellion against the system that we agreed to be accountable to.
God works through men to carry forth His work. Any pastor or administrator will only hire or appoint those with whom he has confidence. It is then up the one hired or appointed whether they will honor that confidence or betray it. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1037
12/10/16 12:13 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| SouthGeorgiaBoy wrote: | | Any pastor or administrator will only hire or appoint those with whom he has confidence. It is then up the one hired or appointed whether they will honor that confidence or betray it. |
Confidence
Honor
Integrity
Ethics
Faithful
Yep, ats a good list a words. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15565
12/10/16 9:07 am
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Dean Steenburgh |
| SouthGeorgiaBoy wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Quote: | | We forget sometimes that we are serving where we are because an overseer had confidence in us to give us the opportunity. |
The only way I can respond to this is to state that the overseer didn't call me, God did & it's because of that calling I'm allowed to preach.
I pastor this church as a direct result of something unique that God had to do. In fact the overseer at the time said he could never help make it happen because I wasn't even credentialed with the CoG at the time. But God has a way of helping AB's see it His way.
I can understand the point you were trying to make but I don't give any man more credit than I give God.
. |
Don't read more into my statement than what is intended. You and I both know and understand that ultimately our calling is from God. There are many movements that we can align with. But we are in the Church of God by choice. We know that there is a financial system that we agree to operate by. Anything else is rebellion against the system that we agreed to be accountable to.
God works through men to carry forth His work. Any pastor or administrator will only hire or appoint those with whom he has confidence. It is then up the one hired or appointed whether they will honor that confidence or betray it. |
SGB, I'm one of only 3 guys on this thread who are using their name & I don't know for sure if one of them is actually a minister or not. This type of topic is easy for the pen namers to respond to.
Yes I agree we pastor in the CoG by choice & yes there is a financial system in place that we agree to covenant with.
If there is a problem in the system it is our direct responsibility to call it out & to make corrections, so not every kind of disagreement with that system is considered rebellion.
Nor is every type of offering reception considered circumvention!
And I believe the best way to fix a broken system is via the GA.
Here is a problem, if a guy gets up before his church & says, "the envelope is for the givers to decide on how they give, but if you give to the general fund we get to keep all of it, whereas the tithe fund we only get 90%" - this guy is is circumventing the system & is wrong. He needs to change his ways of receiving the offering or else part ways with the CoG.
However, if a guy prints an envelope & explains on the envelope how the funds are dispersed, I can't see where there is a problem with that.
I'm called by God to do ministry to lead people to Jesus & in that responsibility is the role of receiving offerings. If I'm transparent with the local church I've done my job; if I'm transparent with my denomination I've done my job.
But I'm not going to deceive the CoG with a one sided approach to receiving offerings so as to 'only' benefit my church nor am I going to refrain from a full explanation in writing as to how the funds are dispersed.
I have a lot of battles to face in ministry & I'm not going to die on this hill over semantics.
More than likely there are people who give their tithe/offerings to the general fund but I'm not going to comb through the weekly/monthly giving report to try & decipher the motivation for who is giving to what category & did they make a mistake.
In fact several times I have encouraged the people here at FCC to place their tithe in the tithe envelope so we can support our HQ offices.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/10/16 5:58 pm
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| Re: So here is a question |
Quiet Wyatt |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | Do you use an envelope with the tithe option printed on the envelope, but then you don't tell your givers how the finances of that tithe are dispersed?
. |
I regularly inform our congregation of the ToT, including a basic breakdown of what the ToT goes to support, both at monthly finance meetings, annual business meetings, and every few months before offerings. I haven't detected anyone that I can tell giving a larger amount in offerings than they give in tithes. We have a small congregation that is generally very strongly committed to tithing. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
12/10/16 6:17 pm
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| Re: So here is a question |
Dean Steenburgh |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | Do you use an envelope with the tithe option printed on the envelope, but then you don't tell your givers how the finances of that tithe are dispersed?
. |
I regularly inform our congregation of the ToT, including a basic breakdown of what the ToT goes to support, both at monthly finance meetings, annual business meetings, and every few months before offerings. I haven't detected anyone that I can tell giving a larger amount in offerings than they give in tithes. We have a small congregation that is generally very strongly committed to tithing. |
Thx for responding QW - I also believe in being transparent as much as possible with my church.
When I first came to this church one of the former pastors was a guy who promoted giving to the general fund & I had to try to overcome this issue which still exists in this church to this day.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/10/16 6:34 pm
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SouthGeorgiaBoy |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | SouthGeorgiaBoy wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Quote: | | We forget sometimes that we are serving where we are because an overseer had confidence in us to give us the opportunity. |
The only way I can respond to this is to state that the overseer didn't call me, God did & it's because of that calling I'm allowed to preach.
I pastor this church as a direct result of something unique that God had to do. In fact the overseer at the time said he could never help make it happen because I wasn't even credentialed with the CoG at the time. But God has a way of helping AB's see it His way.
I can understand the point you were trying to make but I don't give any man more credit than I give God.
. |
Don't read more into my statement than what is intended. You and I both know and understand that ultimately our calling is from God. There are many movements that we can align with. But we are in the Church of God by choice. We know that there is a financial system that we agree to operate by. Anything else is rebellion against the system that we agreed to be accountable to.
God works through men to carry forth His work. Any pastor or administrator will only hire or appoint those with whom he has confidence. It is then up the one hired or appointed whether they will honor that confidence or betray it. |
SGB, I'm one of only 3 guys on this thread who are using their name & I don't know for sure if one of them is actually a minister or not. This type of topic is easy for the pen namers to respond to.
Yes I agree we pastor in the CoG by choice & yes there is a financial system in place that we agree to covenant with.
If there is a problem in the system it is our direct responsibility to call it out & to make corrections, so not every kind of disagreement with that system is considered rebellion.
Nor is every type of offering reception considered circumvention!
And I believe the best way to fix a broken system is via the GA.
Here is a problem, if a guy gets up before his church & says, "the envelope is for the givers to decide on how they give, but if you give to the general fund we get to keep all of it, whereas the tithe fund we only get 90%" - this guy is is circumventing the system & is wrong. He needs to change his ways of receiving the offering or else part ways with the CoG.
However, if a guy prints an envelope & explains on the envelope how the funds are dispersed, I can't see where there is a problem with that.
I'm called by God to do ministry to lead people to Jesus & in that responsibility is the role of receiving offerings. If I'm transparent with the local church I've done my job; if I'm transparent with my denomination I've done my job.
But I'm not going to deceive the CoG with a one sided approach to receiving offerings so as to 'only' benefit my church nor am I going to refrain from a full explanation in writing as to how the funds are dispersed.
I have a lot of battles to face in ministry & I'm not going to die on this hill over semantics.
More than likely there are people who give their tithe/offerings to the general fund but I'm not going to comb through the weekly/monthly giving report to try & decipher the motivation for who is giving to what category & did they make a mistake.
In fact several times I have encouraged the people here at FCC to place their tithe in the tithe envelope so we can support our HQ offices.
. |
First of all, I'm not sure what posting under your given name or pen name has to do with this discussion. This board allows for a poster to discuss either way they choose. Secondly, this is not a matter of contention between you and me. Or, at least, it is not my intention for it to be so.
I wil have to respectfully disagree with you on your assessment that if a pastor prints it on the envelope and then explains the difference between staying in the local church verses 10% going to headquarters, then that is not rebellion. To me, it is. I personally know a pastor who printed this on his envelope and then put it in his bulletin. It was and is his full intent to encourage his members to put their tithe in the local tithe account. He does not try to hide that either.
You came into a tough situation following a pastor who encouraged this practice. And it is difficult to get that mindset changed. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1037
12/12/16 10:48 pm
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wayne |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | SouthGeorgiaBoy wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Quote: | | We forget sometimes that we are serving where we are because an overseer had confidence in us to give us the opportunity. |
The only way I can respond to this is to state that the overseer didn't call me, God did & it's because of that calling I'm allowed to preach.
I pastor this church as a direct result of something unique that God had to do. In fact the overseer at the time said he could never help make it happen because I wasn't even credentialed with the CoG at the time. But God has a way of helping AB's see it His way.
I can understand the point you were trying to make but I don't give any man more credit than I give God.
. |
Don't read more into my statement than what is intended. You and I both know and understand that ultimately our calling is from God. There are many movements that we can align with. But we are in the Church of God by choice. We know that there is a financial system that we agree to operate by. Anything else is rebellion against the system that we agreed to be accountable to.
God works through men to carry forth His work. Any pastor or administrator will only hire or appoint those with whom he has confidence. It is then up the one hired or appointed whether they will honor that confidence or betray it. |
SGB, I'm one of only 3 guys on this thread who are using their name & I don't know for sure if one of them is actually a minister or not. This type of topic is easy for the pen namers to respond to.
Yes I agree we pastor in the CoG by choice & yes there is a financial system in place that we agree to covenant with.
If there is a problem in the system it is our direct responsibility to call it out & to make corrections, so not every kind of disagreement with that system is considered rebellion.
Nor is every type of offering reception considered circumvention!
And I believe the best way to fix a broken system is via the GA.
Here is a problem, if a guy gets up before his church & says, "the envelope is for the givers to decide on how they give, but if you give to the general fund we get to keep all of it, whereas the tithe fund we only get 90%" - this guy is is circumventing the system & is wrong. He needs to change his ways of receiving the offering or else part ways with the CoG.
However, if a guy prints an envelope & explains on the envelope how the funds are dispersed, I can't see where there is a problem with that.
I'm called by God to do ministry to lead people to Jesus & in that responsibility is the role of receiving offerings. If I'm transparent with the local church I've done my job; if I'm transparent with my denomination I've done my job.
But I'm not going to deceive the CoG with a one sided approach to receiving offerings so as to 'only' benefit my church nor am I going to refrain from a full explanation in writing as to how the funds are dispersed.
I have a lot of battles to face in ministry & I'm not going to die on this hill over semantics.
More than likely there are people who give their tithe/offerings to the general fund but I'm not going to comb through the weekly/monthly giving report to try & decipher the motivation for who is giving to what category & did they make a mistake.
In fact several times I have encouraged the people here at FCC to place their tithe in the tithe envelope so we can support our HQ offices.
. |
 |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
12/13/16 9:33 am
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Dean Steenburgh |
SouthGeorgiaBoy
| Quote: | First of all, I'm not sure what posting under your given name or pen name has to do with this discussion. This board allows for a poster to discuss either way they choose. Secondly, this is not a matter of contention between you and me. Or, at least, it is not my intention for it to be so.
I wil have to respectfully disagree with you on your assessment that if a pastor prints it on the envelope and then explains the difference between staying in the local church verses 10% going to headquarters, then that is not rebellion. To me, it is. I personally know a pastor who printed this on his envelope and then put it in his bulletin. It was and is his full intent to encourage his members to put their tithe in the local tithe account. He does not try to hide that either.
You came into a tough situation following a pastor who encouraged this practice. And it is difficult to get that mindset changed. |
Hey friend it's not about contention ...you're reading emotion/intent into my words. I'm not against you nor am I being impertinent.
As to your comment regarding posting under your pen name I have zero problem with anybody who uses a pen name to post comments.
As a CoG pastor who uses his pen name to make comments on a subject related to how our church gives, I'm taking the risk to be fair & honest while explaining how my church gives. In times past if I posted on here & made a comment regarding certain issues I would get emails, phone calls or personal visits informing me that I was wrong & that I need to change my ways ...or else.
So I was saying that I was one of only 3 who were using their real name & I am explaining that my church has an envelope that has been used (currently that particular envelope is not being used due to the holidays) with an explanation on it regarding how the funds are dispersed.
If I encourage all my people to give all their gifts to the tithe fund & never tell them that a % of their giving is used to support state & national HQ, I am guilty of hiding the facts. It could be said that I was misleading.
Besides, what is wrong with being transparent to the families in your ministry if you are claiming to be transparent to your AB or denomination?
In our prayer to bless the offering each week, we ask God to hold the leadership of FCC responsible in the management of the finances. I have to stand before God for my decisions & I want to know that I've been fair before that appointment takes place.
As a side note, here on the West coast we don't embody a CoG culture where the majority of our members know who our denomination really is. Our people have very little knowledge of who our state or national leaders are. We put it before them but it means very little to them. Most of our members are either former catholics, former A/G members or good ole former nonbelievers.
Our district consists of 2 CoG churches in 2 counties and there are 2.98 million sq. miles of land in these 2 counties. The GA could pass a measure to adopt these 2 counties for church planting purposes from 2018 to 2020 & if we planted 20 churches we would still have a long way to go. There are more than 20 A/G churches in the town I live in & in these 2 counties there are almost 70 A/G churches.
So for me to try to dodge the explanation of where the dollars go would be asking for trouble. You CoG boys in the S/E have the benefit of having members or maybe just attenders who have a historical knowledge of who the CoG is & who the leaders are.
If Tim Hill walked in to my church this coming Sunday morning (which would never happen) the greeters would shake his hand & welcome he & his wife without even knowing who they were.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/13/16 4:49 pm
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